Turntable Pro Vs Audiophile

[royphil345]

Hey Slate... Why do you want to try the Shure? Thought you really liked the KAB / Stanton. If You do, would definitely like to hear your impressions on that one since it's what I'm using. Was seriously considering ordering the KAB / Stanton. Gave the Shure another listen and just couldn't justify spenting the money right now. The Shure sounds just a little "closed in" to me when I first start listening, but after I get used to the slightly "round" soundstage it's always a pleasant listening experience. If you're interested, I have a V15VxMR cartridge body (no stylus). Think you can still get a stylus. I liked the sound of the M97xE better though. Although the V15VxMR had a ton of bass, it was still one of those cartridges that stressed the extreme lows and highs to my ear and lacked in midrange and that "powerful" sound.

[slate1]

Why do you want to try the Shure? Thought you really liked the KAB / Stanton.

Hey - at $60 shipped I'm willing to try anything! Well... maybe not anything.... er... nevermind....

Anyhow - I can not imagine ANYTHING beating the KAB/Stanton - I really love this cartridge. The Ortofon was very nice, but just not my cup-o-tea for rock. Just not as "powerful" sounding as the Stanton. The Ortofon is, quite honestly, more detailed and MC like - very much so in the high end especially.

Think of the Ortofon as a 12 year old single malt scotch - something to be savored slowly over time and the KAB/Stanton as a pint of your favorite ale - something you enjoy so much that you just want another, and another... you'll get the picture!

I've read a lot about the Shure's and it seems like an ideal match for the 1200 - that's all. Curiousity more than anything!

[royphil345]

It really is an amazing cartridge for $60.00. Build quality is top-notch. Tracking is excellent. It's the only cartridge I've tried that's NEVER skipped or got "stuck" on a few of my crappier records. Was thinking the KAB / Stanton might sound just a touch livelier because of the stylus shape, while still having a rich sound like the Shure. I'm sure I'll have a weak moment and order the KAB / Stanton eventually. Let us know if you try the Shure!!!

[BRANDONH]

Think of the Ortofon as a 12 year old single malt scotch - something to be savored slowly over time

Umm single malt the one below is my fave.
a real audio enhancer.

[Bernd]

Umm single malt the one below is my fave.
a real audio enhancer.

Hi,
I am a Glenmorangie man. But hey nice choice.

Peace

Bernd

[E-Stat]

Hi,
I am a Glenmorangie man. But hey nice choice.

Glenfarclas, Bruichladdich, and Laphroaig are my favorites. Been to all of those distilleries as well. The last two are located on a quaint island in the Hebrides, Islay.

rw

[bialystok]

Hello all - this is my first post on this forum

I am a house music DJ and I am about to take on the huge task of recording my dancerecords to my computer. I have a high quality usb audio interface (edirol ua-101) and a pair of technics 1210m5g's. I wanted to get a very high quality recording out of my vinyl but I'm a total amateur when it comes to the audiophile scene. I was happy to hear that the techs make a very solid pair of turntables (sonically speaking). I'm basically unsure of what cartridge and phono preamp I should get to produce a good recording. For cartridges I was looking at the grado prestige line. I am a big fan of tube warmth so i was looking at the Bellari VP129 or possibly splurging on the pro-ject tubebox but I'm not sure if this is the best setup to truly represent the sound of records. If you guys could give me some advice that would be fantastic. Thanks....

[slate1]

Hello Bialystok -

I wouldn’t recommend the Grado – they’ve got a wonderful midrange but are horrendous trackers. I ran one from the Reference line (the Platinum) which is above the Prestige line and could never get it to adequately track the inner grooves no matter what alignment I used. This is going to be an especially pronounced problem if most of the records you’re looking to record have been played with DJ styli which can impart groove damage upon the more delicate inner groove area.

I also think that for this genre of music – the Grado paired with a tube amp (especially the Bellari) is going to give you too much warmth and will ultimately kill the dynamics of the music. I’d pair the Bellari up with something a little brighter that’s an excellent tracker like the Audio Technica 440ML ($100) or a KAB/Ortofon Pro-S30 ($190): you’ll get the tube warmth you’re looking for without loss of dynamics and “punch�.

I’ve found the AT-440ML to be painfully bright with solid-state phono stages but with a tube pre it should be fine. The KAB/Ortofon would be perfect, but is more expensive – I’ve got a spare KAB/Ortofon Pro-S30 I can sell you for $140 shipped worldwide if you’re interested in going that route. It’s basically the Ortofon Concorde body with the Ortofon Super OM-30 stylus so you just plug it into the headshell socket and you’re ready to go – no alignment, etc. Just go to http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....art&1136649007 and you can read the description and see my feedback.

An even better option from a cartridge standpoint would be the KAB/Stanton Groovemaster II ($230) and a nice solid state pre-amp like a CI-Audio VPP-1 ($300) or maybe a less laid-back tube based pre like the Pro-Ject Tube-Box ($500). I'm running this cartridge with the CI-Audio pre and it's amazing - lots of warmth and mid-range magic on rock records especially.

One thing to consider with the Bellari is that it’s only got 30db of gain so you’ll need something with a pretty heafty output – no less than 4mv.

[royphil345]

I tried the Audio Technica 440ML with an S-shaped tonearm and had pretty horrible results. Heard what sounded like speed variations caused by the cartridge suspension flexing on slightly warped records. Would probably work much better with a lower mass arm. Don't think it would be the best choice for dance music either. Just not the punchiest sounding cartridge.

An Ortofon Super OM 20 or 30 would probably work well. Or the KAB /Ortofons and Stantons that Slate mentioned if you want to spend a little more. Still VERY tempted to try the KAB / Stanton Groovemaster II myself, even though it's a "Frankenstein"... LOL

[bialystok]

Hello Bialystok -
An even better option from a cartridge standpoint would be the KAB/Stanton Groovemaster II ($230) and a nice solid state pre-amp like a CI-Audio VPP-1 ($300) or the Pro-Ject Tube-Box ($500). I'm running this cartridge with the CI-Audio pre and it's amazing - lots of warmth and mid-range magic on rock records especially.

Could the TubeBox be classified as a solid state pre-amp? So the Groovemaster II and the TubeBox would give me a pretty good representation of the music? I was worried the wrong combination would either give me too much bass, or wash out some details - so its a good thing I asked.

[slate1]

Yeah - I didn't like the 440ML on my system but never had the problems royphil345 is talking about as it wasn't mounted up on the Technics at the time. It was BRIGHT through my solid state Dynavector pre-amp at the time - painfully so - as was the AT-0C9 MC cart.

The Tube Box is not solid state - sorry about the confusion on that. It's just not as "dark" sounding as the Bellari. The only thing I would worry about with the Groovemaster/Tube Box combo is that it's going to be too dark as well. The highs on the Groovemaster are not very forward at all - they're very smooth - that coupled with the warmness of a tube phonostage could result in a quite dark and non-dynamic presentation.

I agree with royphil345 that the Ortofon Pro-S20 or S30 with a tube phonostage like the Tube Box or the Bellari would probably be your best bet at getting the tube warmth you're looking for coupled with the dynamics you need for dance music. I don't want it to come off like I'm pushing you that way because I have a ProS30 for sale! It makes no difference to me if you buy mine or one straight from KAB - I still think that may be your best bet to get where you're trying to go.

The Bellari and the Ortofon combo would only run you around $340 - $400 depending on where you get the gear - not a lot of money at all for a great cartridge and phono-stage. One nice thing about the Bellari stage too is that it's got a built in sub-sonic filter (as does the CI-Audio VPP-1 stage...) - the Bellari is a lot of gear for the money if you can mate it with a higher output cartridge like the Ortofon.

Understand, this is all just "best guess" based on my experience and having actually heard this equipment - I've never put any of these combos together myself though other than the Groovemaster / CI-Audio combination.

[slate1]

Still VERY tempted to try the KAB / Stanton Groovemaster II myself, even though it's a "Frankenstein"... LOL

Come-on man! You know you want the FrankenCart!!! I tell you what - email me offline and I'll send you a CD-R of something played back through the Groovemaster / CI-Audio combo if you want - I've got tons of 70's rock and 50's/60's jazz. Should give you a pretty good idea of what it's going to sound like in your system.

[BRANDONH]

Hello all - this is my first post on this forum

I am a house music DJ and I am about to take on the huge task of recording my dancerecords to my computer. I have a high quality usb audio interface (edirol ua-101) and a pair of technics 1210m5g's. I wanted to get a very high quality recording out of my vinyl but I'm a total amateur when it comes to the audiophile scene. I was happy to hear that the techs make a very solid pair of turntables (sonically speaking). I'm basically unsure of what cartridge and phono preamp I should get to produce a good recording. For cartridges I was looking at the grado prestige line. I am a big fan of tube warmth so i was looking at the Bellari VP129 or possibly splurging on the pro-ject tubebox but I'm not sure if this is the best setup to truly represent the sound of records. If you guys could give me some advice that would be fantastic. Thanks....

I really can not help you with this question you may be able to find answers from other DJ's on this site:
http://www.djforums.com/forums/index.php?

[slate1]

Brandon - ordered up the Shure M97XE yesterday from Amazon - shipped today so MIGHT be here by this weekend. I'll let you know how it works out and how it compares to the Stanton. Hope you're still enjoying the SL-1210 as much as I am!

[BRANDONH]

Brandon - ordered up the Shure M97XE yesterday from Amazon - shipped today so MIGHT be here by this weekend. I'll let you know how it works out and how it compares to the Stanton. Hope you're still enjoying the SL-1210 as much as I am!

I have heard good things about that cartridge I think you will be pleased.
One thing about the removable head once you set it up you can swap them out depending on your mood.

As for the TT I can not get enough of it and cant wait till I get home to play more records.
I never had this much fun with my Pro-ject.
I think I'll play the Boston CBS 1/2 speed mastered tonight.
Really looking forward to Friday so I can blast it to drainbramaging levels.
lolo

[bialystok]

I really can not help you with this question you may be able to find answers from other DJ's on this site:
http://www.djforums.com/forums/index.php?

Funny you mention that site - because I basically live on it. I figured my question was more of an audiophile question than a DJ question. But I did ask there and didn't receive much of a response. I emailed pro-ject about the tube box and I'm calling KAB for their input as well - Slate you have been a HUGE help I really appreciate it. I really want to get a nice well rounded sound out of my records before they're too worn out to play. I'll be switching over to Serato Scratch Live soon so I can still use my turntables but still preserve my vinyl collection.

[slate1]

I think I'll play the Boston CBS 1/2 speed mastered tonight.
Really looking forward to Friday so I can blast it to drainbramaging levels.
lolo

HAH! I was playing that very record just last night!!

I've got the 1/2 speed master and an original Orange-label Epic too. Believe it or not - the original Epic blows the 1/2 speed master out of the water... not true of the later pressings I've heard but, man, that original just smokes!

I know what you mean about the table - I've had $3000 rigs that didn't give me near the enjoyment of the SL-1210.

Bialystok - you're most welcome - good luck and let us know what you decide. Kevin at KAB is one of the best guys you'll ever deal with.

[bialystok]

So I talked to Kevin for about 1/2 hour about what I was trying to accomplish. Long story short he said my turntable is perfect - and recommended the ortofon pros30 or the stanton groovemaster for cartridges. He said that if I was looking for a preamp he said to just go for the $99 music hall phono pack. The combination of those would turn out a very good recording that I'd be very happy with. He seems really cool and straightforward about everything.

[slate1]

So I talked to Kevin for about 1/2 hour about what I was trying to accomplish. Long story short he said my turntable is perfect - and recommended the ortofon pros30 or the stanton groovemaster for cartridges. He said that if I was looking for a preamp he said to just go for the $99 music hall phono pack. The combination of those would turn out a very good recording that I'd be very happy with. He seems really cool and straightforward about everything.

He's one of the best guys I've ever dealt with - just fantastic. Glad you talked to him and glad he was able to help. The Phono-pack... didn't even think about that. It's a mod'd Pro-Ject Phono-box and is one of the quietest phono-pre's in its price range. That's a good suggestion and would match well with either cartridge. Let me know if you want to talk about the Pro-S30, I'm motivated to move it!

[bialystok]

Just a quick question about that shure M97xE - what is this cartridge supposed to sound like in comparison to the stanton or the ortofon I'm considering? Would it not provide me the results I'm looking for? I only ask because I would save about 100 bucks on it.

[slate1]

I'll have thte M97xE in a couple of days and can let you know. It's supposed to be a very laid back neutral cartridge without much "punch". There have been a lot of folks who feel it's not that great a cartridge for rock - we'll see!

It will, without a doubt, be less dynamic and punchy than the Ortofon. I'm curious though to see how it compares to the Stanton. If it's close to the Stanton in terms of neutrality and slam it would be a bargain. You'd have a hell of a setup for less than $200! The M97XE should work for jazz no matter what - so I figured it was worth the $60 risk..

[bialystok]

I'm VERY curious to see what you think of it - Please let me know.

[slate1]

Okay - got the M97xE this morning...

Here's my rundown on these carts running through the solid-state CI-Audio VPP-1. Here's how I set the cartridges up:

KAB/Stanton Groovemaster II AE:
- VTF: 1.3g
- 40db Gain @ 47k
- 0pF Loading

KAB/Ortofon Pro-S30
- VTF: 1.5g
- 40db Gain @ 47k
- 100pF Loading

Shure M97xE
- VTF: 1.25g
- 50db Gain @ 47k
- 100pF Loading

Okay, so now that that's out of the way - all VTA was set with the arm dead level and alignment on the M97xE was done using the Technics alignment jig.

Sound:

KAB/Stanton Groovemaster II AE:
- Highs: Clean, clear and much more subtle than the other two carts. When a hi-hat is hit though, you know it. This cartridge could in no way EVER be called bright!
- Midrange: very very nice and warm
- Bass: VERY strong and has a very tuneful nature to it - not "punchy", just natural. Can seem to get a little "congested" at times.
- Tracking: could not be better....
- Overall Impression: One of the most natural sounding cartridges I've ever heard - sounds like live music and nothing else.

KAB/Ortofon Pro-S30
- Highs: Brighter than the Stanton - but not "bright" in general. Very detailed and quite extended.
- Midrange: transparent
- Bass: very nice bass - extended but not as much so as the Stanton. Much more "punchy" than the Stanton - gets to the beat of the music very very well.
- Tracking: Excellent
- Overall Impression: Brighter than the Stanton - but not glaringly so. Excellent tracker and very nice punchy bass. Midrange gives up some to the Stanton but matched with warmer gear could keep up very very well.

Shure M97xE
- Highs: People who have described this cartridge as "rolled off" must have the capacitance loaded wrong. At 100pF it's got very nice, extended highs - more so than the Ortofon even and certainly more so than the Stanton.
- Midrange: similar to the Ortofon - qute transparent
- Bass: weak - there's no other way to put it and I'd imagine that this has a lot to do with people calling this cartridge "boring" or uninvolving
- Tracking: Excellent - very good, especially at this price point
- Overall Impression: A bargain, no doubt, but the weak bass is an issue. Still, the best $60 cartridge I've EVER heard!

I've come to the conclusion that listed output levels are somewhat irrelevant and these three cartridges certainly hit that point home. These are all listed at around 4mv output but all yielded much different results.

With the Stanton and the VPP-1 set at 40db gain, the volume on my amp sits at around 9:00 for normal listening levels. The Ortofon at around 10:00 and the Shure would not even play at acceptable levels with the VPP-1 set at 40db. I’d have to turn the volume to 12-2:00 to get a decent playing volume. Even at 50db gain the Shure required around 11:00 on the amp to play at any volume that would be considered “normal�.

So – my conclusion is that, in my system, I’d rank them as follows:

1 – KAB/Stanton ($230+s/h)
2 – Ortofon ProS30 ($180+s/h)
3 – Shure M97xE ($60)

Interestingly enough – they follow right along the price curve as well.

[royphil345]

Thanks for the review Slate!!!

I think the reason I would call it uninvolving is it's lack of frequency range. You can get highs out of it, but I think most people who use it end up putting just a little more tracking force on it to get a more balanced sound (otherwise too lean and annoying in the long run, end up with a pretty balanced sound, but rolled off on both ends). Like I said, very listenable, but It isn't great in the dynamics or wide frequency response departments which is why I especially didn't recommend it for archiving. Would be nice to have a little higher output too. One of these days I'll order one of those "Frankensteins"!!! Sounds like either of the other two cartridges would be an improvement.

[slate1]

Thanks for the review Slate!!!

I think the reason I would call it uninvolving is it's lack of frequency range. You can get highs out of it, but I think most people who use it end up putting just a little more tracking force on it to get a more balanced sound (otherwise too lean and annoying in the long run, end up with a pretty balanced sound, but rolled off on both ends). Like I said, very listenable, but It isn't great in the dynamics or wide frequency response departments which is why I especially didn't recommend it for archiving. Would be nice to have a little higher output too. One of these days I'll order one of those "Frankensteins"!!! Sounds like either of the other two cartridges would be an improvement.

I think you're right - I played around with VTA a bit and dropping it down does fill out the bass some but the highs go away quick - tough to get a nice tonal balance out of this cartridge. Surprising given that it's an eliptical stylus...