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  1. #51
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    To quote Johm Melloncamp, "It hurts so good".

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    This statement: "Tubes produce music. Transistors reproduce music." is conditional based upon two factors:

    1. Using a design that is NOT intended for linearity.
    2. The device is intentionally overdriven for creating the desired "effect".

    If that was your point, it was not very well qualified. It depends upon choices, not inherent qualities.
    Since you adamantly prefer tubes,they must add something to the music that you feel is missing from sold-state units. That's all well and good, but it still seems that that "added" something is an additive quality. What would one call that?

    But, hey, it's all good. Some people prefer to slather mushrooms, onions, and steak sauce on a fine aged porterhouse. As long as it's not my steak, what difference is it to me? And, if one prefers their music with just a smidgen of even order harmonics, that's no skin off my teeth either.

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    There is no doubt that SS is usually cheaper and more practical
    I think "more economical" would have been a better word than "cheap", but I guess you subconsciously chose that for some strange reason. As another possible positive attribute to SS, perhaps good ones are just a tad more accurate to the source signal?

  2. #52
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Only a fool would use a low fidelity guitar amp like a Fender for musical reproduction since they were not intended for that use. That would be like selecting a pickup truck for autocross racing.

    rw
    I was not referring to guitar amps, and am not sure why you thought so. I guess If I don't put everything out there in great detail, you will just fill in the blanks with your assumptions. Keep in mind when you do this - it is YOUR assumptions, not my detail.
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  3. #53
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Since you adamantly prefer tubes,they must add something to the music that you feel is missing from sold-state units. That's all well and good, but it still seems that that "added" something is an additive quality. What would one call that?
    That depends on the way you hear it. You are assuming that the perception is that the tube is adding something while my perception is that the SS is "missing" something - most of everything that matters.

    My perception of the sound mirrors this "The word “semiconductor” really means what it says and it says it all, “half”-conductor, sonically this could be translated to mean half the signal! Which is really what it sounds like. Pure and simple, transistors are highly un-linear and need a lot of correction (feedback of some sort) to have a bandwidth wide enough to be able to reproduce any music signals, they are not natural voltage amplifiers." And I would add as a result don't sound natural.

    People tend to prefer tubes because they sound more natural, more like instruments, more like voices, more like real music. Most people under the age of 50 grew up on solid state amplification and while Tubes may "add" some unwanted things I would rather that than take out some noise but gut chunks of the music signal.

    SS typically all sounds the same. There is a reason why no one passes double blind listening experiemnts because while the very same SS supporter will dump in tube amps they will happily tell people that spending $30,000 on a top bryston sounds SO MUCH better than a 3BSST. Which in reality that person will NEVER pass a blind test EVER. The same people who trust the "science" of SS is best will then throw it out and "trust" their ears that the $30k bryston is better sounding. That is truly hilarious and patently hypocritical.

    Tubes and SET are what many audiophiles end up with after owning the likes of Bryston. This is not a retro movement with 70 year olds longing for the old days of tubes out of nostalgia. Actually some of the older farts probably need the shrieking treble of SS to help out their loss of HF hearing.

  4. #54
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    That depends on the way you hear it. You are assuming that the perception is that the tube is adding something while my perception is that the SS is "missing" something - most of everything that matters.

    My perception of the sound mirrors this "The word “semiconductor” really means what it says and it says it all, “half”-conductor, sonically this could be translated to mean half the signal! Which is really what it sounds like. Pure and simple, transistors are highly un-linear and need a lot of correction (feedback of some sort) to have a bandwidth wide enough to be able to reproduce any music signals, they are not natural voltage amplifiers." And I would add as a result don't sound natural.

    People tend to prefer tubes because they sound more natural, more like instruments, more like voices, more like real music. Most people under the age of 50 grew up on solid state amplification and while Tubes may "add" some unwanted things I would rather that than take out some noise but gut chunks of the music signal.

    SS typically all sounds the same. There is a reason why no one passes double blind listening experiemnts because while the very same SS supporter will dump in tube amps they will happily tell people that spending $30,000 on a top bryston sounds SO MUCH better than a 3BSST. Which in reality that person will NEVER pass a blind test EVER. The same people who trust the "science" of SS is best will then throw it out and "trust" their ears that the $30k bryston is better sounding. That is truly hilarious and patently hypocritical.

    Tubes and SET are what many audiophiles end up with after owning the likes of Bryston. This is not a retro movement with 70 year olds longing for the old days of tubes out of nostalgia. Actually some of the older farts probably need the shrieking treble of SS to help out their loss of HF hearing.
    As I said earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by Markw
    But, hey, it's all good. Some people prefer to slather mushrooms, onions, and steak sauce on a fine aged porterhouse. As long as it's not my steak, what difference is it to me? And, if one prefers their music with just a smidgen of even order harmonics, that's no skin off my teeth either.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Exactly and the home audio user can avoid clipping the amp by not being heavy handed with the control knob. Hence the entire point of "not" being able to play the Quad loud witht the OTO.
    Unfortunately, it's not that simple
    Last edited by theaudiohobby; 08-14-2010 at 01:15 PM.
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  6. #56
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    Unfortunately, it's not that simple
    Fortunately, it is that simple.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Fortunately, it is that simple.
    How does such a set up deal with dynamic peaks? turn down the control knob?
    Last edited by theaudiohobby; 08-15-2010 at 01:12 AM.
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  8. #58
    RGA
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    If the amp has a 4ohm tap, which it does, the dynamic "request" the speaker makes on the amp will not require it to work hard - amplifiers also have reserves for "peak" requests such as dynamic swings. If the volume in this case is relatively low and most normal medium/low listening is 75db-80db or lower at the listening chair (including the peaks) an amplifier barely needs a watt. At higher volumes low power mated to low sensitivity is a problem - but then I already said that.

  9. #59
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    If the amp has a 4ohm tap, which it does, the dynamic "request" the speaker makes on the amp will not require it to work hard - amplifiers also have reserves for "peak" requests such as dynamic swings. If the volume in this case is relatively low and most normal medium/low listening is 75db-80db or lower at the listening chair (including the peaks) an amplifier barely needs a watt. At higher volumes low power mated to low sensitivity is a problem - but then I already said that.
    It's is not that simple really. If the peak is in the midrange or high frequencies, it may have the dynamic reserves to cover that peak. When it occurs in the bass frequencies, the demands on an amplifier become quite large, in some cases double or triple the output than the midrange or high frequencies would require.
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  10. #60
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    SS typically all sounds the same. There is a reason why no one passes double blind listening experiemnts because while the very same SS supporter will dump in tube amps they will happily tell people that spending $30,000 on a top bryston sounds SO MUCH better than a 3BSST. Which in reality that person will NEVER pass a blind test EVER. The same people who trust the "science" of SS is best will then throw it out and "trust" their ears that the $30k bryston is better sounding. That is truly hilarious and patently hypocritical.
    As a person who CAN hear the difference between the 3BSST, and the 28BSST I beg to differ with your hypothesis. SS do not all sound exactly the same, there are very subtle differences between any SS amp when paired to a speaker sitting in a room.

    Those differences may not be punch you in the face differences(and I never expect them to be), but they are audible, even if subtle, but you can hear them.

    However, that is not a reason to choose a 28BSST over a 3BSST. I have a VERY large room with 9 very large speakers in it. Because of the speaker placement(and the size of the room) I get no room gain in the lower frequencies. So while a 150 wpc 3BSST would do well to push the low frequencies in the room, a 1000 watt monoblock 28BSST does it with ease. What differences can you hear. It is what I call "system ease". It is when a system sounds totally relaxed while reproducing extremely demanding passages. That is the audible difference between a 3B and a 28B. Example, when I auditioned the 3B and the 28B, I used Micky Hart's Planet Drum project. One particular piece called "Temple Caves" has a VERY deep bass drum part that really distinguished the differences between these two amps. The 3B impressively played the big bass part, and it really sounded good. However when the 28B played back that same part, the very low end really bloomed in the room, and you could feel the bass wave move through the room. Even at high volumes, the 28B sounded more powerful, and more relaxed at reproducing this difficult for any amplifier to reproduce passage. More of the fundamentals of the drum were exposed, and its decay was fully realized, and that didn't quite happen with the 3B. No matter what we listen to, whether it be the High Altitude Drums, or the Canon shots in the 1812, the 28B was just better at fleshing out clearly the difficult to reproduce passages in each recording. Where there any magical differences in the midrange and high frequencies? No, not to these ears, but the dynamic capabilities when paired with my SC-V's showed a very noticeable difference. This also went for the 4B, and to a lesser degree on the 7B and the 14B.

    One of the first things I learned about critical listening, is to not listen for the obvious, but to listen to what would not be obvious.
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  11. #61
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    It's is not that simple really. If the peak is in the midrange or high frequencies, it may have the dynamic reserves to cover that peak. When it occurs in the bass frequencies, the demands on an amplifier become quite large, in some cases double or triple the output than the midrange or high frequencies would require.
    That is not entirely correct. Impedence typically drops with lower frequencies as do some speakers in the treble. If a speaker dips to 2 ohms that requires double the amplifier power on the 4 ohm tap. But that only depends on the speaker's minimum impedence. A stable loudspeaker that does not go below 4ohms on a 4 ohm tap of the amplifier places no such demand on the amplifier. A 20hz note at 4ohms places no greater demand on an amplifier than a 1khz note at 4ohms. Amplifiers don't care about frequency the care about impedence - so while it is true that bass (of the speaker) usually presents a more difficult impedence on the amplifier that really depends on the loudspeaker and not the amplifier's watt rating. Amplifier power supplies are not all created equally despite the watt rating.

    The only reason Bass is any sort of issue is because the speaker that is rated 8 ohms with a low power amp at 8ohms will have trouble if the speaker drops to 2-3ohms which "usually" occurs in the bass region. The amplifier is asked to draw many times it's rated power to successfully reach the note. That still comes down to not pushing the amplifier. It is easier with amplifiers with a watt meter and a tube amp was running in a Vancouver shop and it would play music and you could see the amp hovering at 1watt. Under a dynamic swing the meter would jump to 8-12 watts. But this was playing very very loud with bass and with reltaively hard to speakers. Even an 85db sensitive speaker gets that with 1 watt at 1 meter - most people don't listen that loud. 75db at the listening chair is pretty loud and you're arguably getting this with less than a watt of power regardless of the amplifier. Even if you measure the bass line peak at 85db which IMO is excessive but even if you did running the 4 ohm tap from the tube amp with a reasonably stable impedence speaker it is not like you're pushing the amp into distortion at all into these levels. If you raise all these db levels by 10db and running 8db with a swing into the 95db-100db range then the 5-8 watt amp is going to be out of the question. It won't be able to handle the dynamic swings and it won't be able to carry the bass which will sound bloated muddy/mushy.

    That is why I said - it can't play loud but the impedence swing only becomes an issue if the swing itself rises above the amp's capability to meet the swing. The OTO and most good amps are able to easily swing many times their power ratings. The Rita is 45 watts but can jump to 450watts to meet dynamic needs.

    Here is an example:

    To give you some perspective on music playback in the home, "quiet" music would fall in the 75-dB range, whereas "quite loud" music would measure about 85 dB SPL at your favorite spot on the couch. For purposes of illustration, let's go back to our example of listening to a recording of a solo concert-grand piano of Chopin piano works at average levels of 76 to 86 dB, using a pair of M80ti loudspeakers at a distance of 12 feet. According to our previous calculations, this would require perhaps 1 watt per channel of amplifier power, a modest demand for even the least expensive A/V receiver or small amplifier. If the pianist on the CD was playing Chopin's Grand Polonaise, however, and one of those spectacular chords in the bass octaves of the piano comes along, your amplifier and speakers will suddenly have to produce levels of 96 or 100 dB SPL without distorting, because Chopin's piano works have sudden and extreme changes in musical dynamics. Remember that a 10-dB increase in subjective loudness ("twice as loud") demands ten times as much power, or in our example, 10 watts, a level any receiver or amp will easily produce."

    Obviously no one would ever bother to buy a 4 watt amplifier with the Quad 2905 a 83db sensitive speaker like I say - it can't play all that loud without having a problem. But it's what the amp does at 1watt that sees every SS amp in the store off. Even a "bad match" with the Quad in a volume level scenario still sounds better when the music is in the 75-85db range. The guys selling them find this to be so. And it's why Quad themselves make the partnering 40 watt tube. That amp can easily cover any dynamic swing the 2905 has at the volume the speaker is typically able to produce. So while a dynamic swing may be 10db higher than average - you simply factor that into the volume level you set a lower powered amp at. Tubes typically soft clip under dynamic extremes and is less of an issue than hard clipping nature of solid state amps. For an amp such as the OTO it would be best to have 90db easy load speakers at the minimum in a small/medium room.
    Last edited by RGA; 08-15-2010 at 02:00 PM.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    That is not entirely correct. Impedence typically drops with lower frequencies as do some speakers in the treble. If a speaker dips to 2 ohms that requires double the amplifier power on the 4 ohm tap. But that only depends on the speaker's minimum impedence. A stable loudspeaker that does not go below 4ohms on a 4 ohm tap of the amplifier places no such demand on the amplifier. A 20hz note at 4ohms places no greater demand on an amplifier than a 1khz note at 4ohms. Amplifiers don't care about frequency the care about impedence
    You are way off the mark. For example, have a look at this amplifier(a Rogue Tempest II), for a power output 10W, it puts out at least 2X more distortion at 50Hz than it does at 500Hz, and distortion worsens as the power output increases, therefore during a dynamic peak with significant bass content this amplifier would produce considerably higher distortion in comparison to a peak with little bass content.
    Last edited by theaudiohobby; 08-15-2010 at 03:57 PM.
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  13. #63
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    You are way off the mark. For example, have a look at this amplifier(a Rogue Tempest II), for a power output 10W, it puts out at least 2X more distortion at 50Hz than it does at 500Hz, and distortion worsens as the power output increases, therefore during a dynamic peak with significant bass content this amplifier would produce considerably higher distortion in comparison to a peak with little bass content.
    Does every tube amplifier on the planet do this? Is this what you are saying that every tube amp on the planet at 50hz exhibits 2X more distortion? Twice the distortion - umm under 1% at 50hz and under 1% under 500hz. At 20hz the amp is under 1.5% - have you lost the plot. I know you love arguing theory but let's try to put things into some rational perspective. You will NEVER hear any of this.

    Though I find it interesting that once again the review where you took that from, Soundstage, the reviewer bought the amplifier - even after he saw the measurements of the SS amps on his own website. LOL. Too funny.
    Last edited by RGA; 08-15-2010 at 07:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    While I am also a fan of tube gear and have owned various ARC components since 1981, I will have to disagree here. I think you'll find that a REF5 sounds considerably more neutral than your SP-8 (I had an SP-6 myself). I have heard some exceptional SS (and digital) stuff from a number of companies. I use a mix of tube and SS along with analog and digital in both my music systems.

    rw
    I'm not a fan of CJ tube gear: too slow, too soft. Also not a fan of the AR SP-6: too much ss in it. My AR SP 8 puts most "modern" phono units, ss OR tube to shame.

    BTW, it's interesting that not only did JA have to turn to an AR tube unit to get the Acapella speaker to sound realistic (full, rich, balanced), Jon Valin had to use AR tubes to get the new Magneplaner 1.7 to keep from sounding two-dimensional. Yes, you can get depth and warmth from ss, but you never get the sense of three-dimensional instruments or singers; the body is missing. As AV puts it: "its rather as if you are getting a slice off the front of the instrument instead of the whole enchilada

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    And, yes, I want the full enchilada!

  16. #66
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    That is not entirely correct. Impedence typically drops with lower frequencies as do some speakers in the treble. If a speaker dips to 2 ohms that requires double the amplifier power on the 4 ohm tap. But that only depends on the speaker's minimum impedence. A stable loudspeaker that does not go below 4ohms on a 4 ohm tap of the amplifier places no such demand on the amplifier. A 20hz note at 4ohms places no greater demand on an amplifier than a 1khz note at 4ohms. Amplifiers don't care about frequency the care about impedence - so while it is true that bass (of the speaker) usually presents a more difficult impedence on the amplifier that really depends on the loudspeaker and not the amplifier's watt rating. Amplifier power supplies are not all created equally despite the watt rating.

    The only reason Bass is any sort of issue is because the speaker that is rated 8 ohms with a low power amp at 8ohms will have trouble if the speaker drops to 2-3ohms which "usually" occurs in the bass region. The amplifier is asked to draw many times it's rated power to successfully reach the note. That still comes down to not pushing the amplifier. It is easier with amplifiers with a watt meter and a tube amp was running in a Vancouver shop and it would play music and you could see the amp hovering at 1watt. Under a dynamic swing the meter would jump to 8-12 watts. But this was playing very very loud with bass and with reltaively hard to speakers. Even an 85db sensitive speaker gets that with 1 watt at 1 meter - most people don't listen that loud. 75db at the listening chair is pretty loud and you're arguably getting this with less than a watt of power regardless of the amplifier. Even if you measure the bass line peak at 85db which IMO is excessive but even if you did running the 4 ohm tap from the tube amp with a reasonably stable impedence speaker it is not like you're pushing the amp into distortion at all into these levels. If you raise all these db levels by 10db and running 8db with a swing into the 95db-100db range then the 5-8 watt amp is going to be out of the question. It won't be able to handle the dynamic swings and it won't be able to carry the bass which will sound bloated muddy/mushy.

    That is why I said - it can't play loud but the impedence swing only becomes an issue if the swing itself rises above the amp's capability to meet the swing. The OTO and most good amps are able to easily swing many times their power ratings. The Rita is 45 watts but can jump to 450watts to meet dynamic needs.

    Here is an example:

    To give you some perspective on music playback in the home, "quiet" music would fall in the 75-dB range, whereas "quite loud" music would measure about 85 dB SPL at your favorite spot on the couch. For purposes of illustration, let's go back to our example of listening to a recording of a solo concert-grand piano of Chopin piano works at average levels of 76 to 86 dB, using a pair of M80ti loudspeakers at a distance of 12 feet. According to our previous calculations, this would require perhaps 1 watt per channel of amplifier power, a modest demand for even the least expensive A/V receiver or small amplifier. If the pianist on the CD was playing Chopin's Grand Polonaise, however, and one of those spectacular chords in the bass octaves of the piano comes along, your amplifier and speakers will suddenly have to produce levels of 96 or 100 dB SPL without distorting, because Chopin's piano works have sudden and extreme changes in musical dynamics. Remember that a 10-dB increase in subjective loudness ("twice as loud") demands ten times as much power, or in our example, 10 watts, a level any receiver or amp will easily produce."

    Obviously no one would ever bother to buy a 4 watt amplifier with the Quad 2905 a 83db sensitive speaker like I say - it can't play all that loud without having a problem. But it's what the amp does at 1watt that sees every SS amp in the store off. Even a "bad match" with the Quad in a volume level scenario still sounds better when the music is in the 75-85db range. The guys selling them find this to be so. And it's why Quad themselves make the partnering 40 watt tube. That amp can easily cover any dynamic swing the 2905 has at the volume the speaker is typically able to produce. So while a dynamic swing may be 10db higher than average - you simply factor that into the volume level you set a lower powered amp at. Tubes typically soft clip under dynamic extremes and is less of an issue than hard clipping nature of solid state amps. For an amp such as the OTO it would be best to have 90db easy load speakers at the minimum in a small/medium room.
    If you are correct on this(and you are not) then why do we need larger drivers for the bass frequencies, and larger amps to power them. If everything relied solely on impedence, then there would be no need to bi amp anything, it is all the same to an amp.

    The reason why we use subwoofers is to take the strain off the the main amps. Bass at 20hz requires WAY more power than a signal at 20khz or 1khz for that matter. I thought everyone knew this very basic information. It takes a big driver to reproduce the wavelengths of bass frequencies, and it take a lot of power to move the driver. Since the movements of a midrange and tweeter drivers are less, they require less power to move them. This is regardless of impedance. This is basic audio I thought....
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  17. #67
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    I'm not a fan of CJ tube gear: too slow, too soft. Also not a fan of the AR SP-6: too much ss in it. My AR SP 8 puts most "modern" phono units, ss OR tube to shame.

    BTW, it's interesting that not only did JA have to turn to an AR tube unit to get the Acapella speaker to sound realistic (full, rich, balanced), Jon Valin had to use AR tubes to get the new Magneplaner 1.7 to keep from sounding two-dimensional. Yes, you can get depth and warmth from ss, but you never get the sense of three-dimensional instruments or singers; the body is missing. As AV puts it: "its rather as if you are getting a slice off the front of the instrument instead of the whole enchilada
    You NEVER get a sense of three dimensional instruments or singers, the body is missing??? Please tell me you are kidding, so I don't think that you are off your rocker.

    One of the very things I love about the Bryston 28BSST is that sense of three dimensionality you get when the recording allows it. Lateral imaging and sound stage depth are some of that amps strong suits, especially when you combine it with a speaker like the SC-V.
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  18. #68
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    If you are correct on this(and you are not) then why do we need larger drivers for the bass frequencies, and larger amps to power them. If everything relied solely on impedence, then there would be no need to bi amp anything, it is all the same to an amp.

    The reason why we use subwoofers is to take the strain off the the main amps. Bass at 20hz requires WAY more power than a signal at 20khz or 1khz for that matter. I thought everyone knew this very basic information. It takes a big driver to reproduce the wavelengths of bass frequencies, and it take a lot of power to move the driver. Since the movements of a midrange and tweeter drivers are less, they require less power to move them. This is regardless of impedance. This is basic audio I thought....
    You would think so but you would still not entirely be correct because larger loudspeakers ALSO tend to be MORE sensitive than small speakers meaning that larger speakers tend to be easier to drive. The easiest speaker I have in my home to drive is my Wharfedale - By far my OTO has the easiest time with this speaker despite the fact that it is a 3 driver speaker and uses a 10 inch woofer. The woofer cone does not need to be pushed as far. The piddly little standmounts from Totem need huge power to get their little 4 inch long throw woofers to work and their sensitivity and efficinecy are generally appalling. My amp by far would have more trouble driving that speaker using a 4 inch woofer than my wharfedales with an extra driver and a 10 inch woofer. And the Wharfedales have deeper bass and can play a lot louder with ease. The previous speaker to my Wharfedale is here and even they note that a flea watt amp can easily drive them. http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/olde...fedalee70.html

    The Vanguard was a late 80's version with better drivers and a better layout - 40hz-23khz with a flatter frequency and better staging.

    If you look at the VAST majority of all systems using a 1.5 watt SET the owners of such systems use massive speakers with massive woofers (Avantegarde for example). The bigger the driver the less it has to move in order to push the air.

    I thought all of this was perfectly obvious but apparently it isn't. For decades entire theaters were powered with less than 30 watts with lots of bass. The fact that designers would rather use cheap parts and are incompetent and need a billion watts to make any noise says more about their talent than the few designers out there that actually know what the hell they're doing. The older Cerwin Vegas could be driven off of flea amps and they used 15 inch+ woofers and the bigger ones had heart pounding bass ability. The speakers may not have sounded very good but they had lots of bass and some were 112db sensitive and even higher. Big woofers can in fact be moved out stop and back with very little watts.

    And if Tube Fan is correct it would seem even the big Acapella loudspeakers with their powerful bass are quite happy to show with Einstein and relatively low powered amplifiers and JA prefered it with a tube maker in ARC than the big SS beasties.

    Sorry but I still don't buy your argument - big speakers from competent designers are easier to drive and easier for low powered amps. bad speakers with poor bass need big high powered SS amplfiers to make them "kind of" sound realistic and "kind of" have some bass output. Bass can be achieved with low power if it is intelligently designed and quality drivers are used. If a system needs 100 watts to get good bass and good levels in an average sized listening room - then IMO it's not a well designed loudspeaker.

    As for Subwoofers - A tube amp can certainly be used but there is a space and heat issue with creating such a system. Subwoofers are primarily a creation for the home theater crowd not the home audio 2 channel crowd. Very few speaker designers also make amplifiers - if a Speaker designer makes a subwoofer they are more likely to go with off the shelf SS amps out of China to stick into their subwoofers. A good tube amp will cost more money and tubes need to be replaced. All of the issues for why a tube isn't used has zilch to do with the ability of the tube amp and entirely to do with profit motivations or ergonomics or aesthetics or a lack of knowledge, or size constraints.

    Incidentally Audio Note has been working on a SET powered subwoofer for Several years with a prominant UK sub woofer maker - so it can be done.
    Last edited by RGA; 08-15-2010 at 11:50 PM.

  19. #69
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    Thumbs down you seem unable to tell the forest for the trees

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Does every tube amplifier on the planet do this?
    Isn't that a question you should ask yourself, you made the original assertion that "amplifiers do not care about frequency.
    Is this what you are saying that every tube amp on the planet at 50hz exhibits 2X more distortion? Twice the distortion - umm under 1% at 50hz and under 1% under 500hz. At 20hz the amp is under 1.5% - have you lost the plot. I know you love arguing theory but let's try to put things into some rational perspective. You will NEVER hear any of this.
    You do not understand the graph nor seem to get the point, do you? The graph above is for an amplifier rated at 90Wpch, its distortion at 1W and 10W will be minimal however it still varies with frequency, at a dynamic peak it will output more power and distortion. Does this graph, Song Audio SA-300 (8Wpch), put things into perspective for you

    Though I find it interesting that once again the review where you took that from, Soundstage, the reviewer bought the amplifier - even after he saw the measurements of the SS amps on his own website. LOL. Too funny.
    What I find interestering about you is your seeming inability to tell the forest for the trees as well as your propensity for making blanket statements that are totally off the mark.
    Last edited by theaudiohobby; 08-16-2010 at 01:42 AM.
    It's a listening test, you do not need to see it to listen to it!

  20. #70
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    And we keep circling the landing strip.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  21. #71
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I was not referring to guitar amps, and am not sure why you thought so.
    Hmmm. Review post #32 here where GM is specifically referring to a Fender reverb amp (your quoted comments from GM clearly includes that reference) and your response to the Fender is:

    "I think that underlined statement is exactly why they are not suitable for studio monitoring situations. "

    The underlined statement clearly references the Fender. And you conveniently ignored that last two statements where he did NOT suggest that would necessarily be the case with high fidelity equipment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I guess If I don't put everything out there in great detail, you will just fill in the blanks with your assumptions.
    Or, choice "B" - you either have difficulty remembering what you've said or have poor reading comprehension. There was only one subject to which "it" referred.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 08-16-2010 at 01:42 PM.

  22. #72
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    Also not a fan of the AR SP-6: too much ss in it.
    You must have that model confused with something else. The only SS device used in the SP-6 series is for power supply regulation - just like the SP-8. Take a look at the board layouts at the ARC database.

    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    My AR SP 8 puts most "modern" phono units, ss OR tube to shame.
    Others like Harry Pearson will readily disagree with that statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    Yes, you can get depth and warmth from ss, but you never get the sense of three-dimensional instruments or singers; the body is missing.
    Such can be found in SS, if not from the particular units Valin chose. I've heard a number at Sea Cliff which are capable.

    edit: The REF5 to which I referred earlier is not a C-J unit. Look ARC REF5.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 08-16-2010 at 01:33 PM.

  23. #73
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Since you adamantly prefer tubes,they must add something to the music that you feel is missing from sold-state units.
    First of all, I differ from others here in that I both own and find many SS products to be exceptional. You will find them in all of my systems. In the very best components, however, I find that the best tubes trump the best SS I've heard when it comes to reproducing acoustical music (and I confess that I have not heard many of the newer $40k -$100k pretenders to the throne).

    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    That's all well and good, but it still seems that that "added" something is an additive quality.
    Disagree. I would call it retention of subtle qualities that are most often lost with most SS amps which necessarily use a lot of corrective band-aids. Focus. Harmonic integrity of acoustical instruments. More lifelike rendition of vocals. You will not find me adding tube buffer circuits to "improve" the signal. For CD playback in the main system, I bypass the hybrid tube preamp altogether because it degrades the sound quality a bit in a couple of respects.

    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    And, if one prefers their music with just a smidgen of even order harmonics, that's no skin off my teeth either.
    I'll take a smidgen of even order harmonics over odd order products any day.

    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    I think "more economical" would have been a better word than "cheap", but I guess you subconsciously chose that for some strange reason.
    Sorry if that word offends. There is a premium to be paid for the tube products to which I refer.

    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    As another possible positive attribute to SS, perhaps good ones are just a tad more accurate to the source signal?
    By what criteria? Simplistic metrics rendered using test tones? I learned that lesson thirty plus years ago when I was a teenager. Why did the AR amplifier sound so poor when the McIntosh lab proved that it met spec and delivered low distortion? I was even presented with the graph to prove it. My Crown amp measured even better using those metrics - and yet sounded decidedly amusical. I use the sound of unamplified acoustical music as my reference and have the ability to hear it on almost a daily basis hearing my wife play her baby grand. It would indeed be wonderful IF - and only IF such metrics correlated with what we hear.

    rw

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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I'll take a smidgen of even order harmonics over odd order products any day.
    I leave markw to answer this in detail, I am open to correction here but contrary to common knowledge with most amplifiers, tube variety included, you do not get the choice, you get both even and odd order harmonics, now even harmonics may be higher in level in some designs e.g. single-ended circuits, but there is hardly ever a scenario where odd-order harmonics are totally absent, they come with the 'distortion' package.
    It's a listening test, you do not need to see it to listen to it!

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    And we keep circling the landing strip.
    Unfortunately so because folks keep revisiting old ground with the same old tired arguments.
    It's a listening test, you do not need to see it to listen to it!

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