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  1. #26
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    Well, I think I have it narrowed down to a Music Hall mmf 5.1 that a local guy can get cheap (thanks Frenchy), a Pro-ject RM 5.1 SE if I can find a good deal on it (anyone have a lead there, feel free to let me know - missed my chance at a couple demo models and all the prices I see posted are full list price), and an outside thought at considering a P3-24 as I see some places are closing them out pretty cheaply with the new model coming in.

    Any thoughts?

  2. #27
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    I think the P3-24 is the top turntable priced under $1,000. It’s a very nice performer in stock form with a Rega cartridge. A few mods can take its performance significantly higher. The mods I think are good value are a nice cartridge like an Ortofon 2M Blue, tonearm shims, a GrooveTracer subplatter and Rega’s white belt. I think there is also some value to Rega’s TTPSU, although it’s not huge. That’s around $800 in upgrades, so it’s certainly a significant cost, but all are worthwhile.


    The MMF-5.1 seems to be tops at its price point, especially if you’re getting a discount. I don’t think a cartridge upgrade would be necessary, but if I had an MMF-5.1 I might want to try to get hold of a glass platter from an MMF-5. Although my own preference is the Rega sound (by a nose), the Rega turntables sound a little forward and thin to some people’s ears. I don’t see this as being the case with Music Hall and Pro-Ject. My MMF-5 sounded a tad laid back to my ears, with a bit of tubbiness that was pleasant and gave a nice illusion of fullness. I enjoyed that turntable and occasionally wish I still had one…if I had a place for another turntable.

    So I suppose the long story short is – I think you might just be very happy with either one.

  3. #28
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    Do you know how big the difference is between the mmf 5 and the 5.1? I ask since you mentioned preferring the platter from the 5. And, I see used 5s pretty cheap, even significantly cheaper than what I can get a new 5.1. (not surprising, just saying if there's little to no difference...well...)

    I think I hear the raves Rega tables get, which also seems to lead to them holding their value. And then I see good deals on new P3-24s with people making way for the new models. But yeah, that reputation for being a tad thin and forward pretty much sounds like the opposite direction from what I usually prefer.

    Also, I probably would enjoy either just fine and am splitting hairs. I just figure I don't spend this kinda money often personally, so if I do I want something that sounds good and lasts a good long time. So making a final decision here is going to take a good bit of time and feature a hefty dose consternation.

  4. #29
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02audionoob View Post
    I think the P3-24 is the top turntable priced under $1,000. It’s a very nice performer in stock form with a Rega cartridge. A few mods can take its performance significantly higher. The mods I think are good value are a nice cartridge like an Ortofon 2M Blue, tonearm shims, a GrooveTracer subplatter and Rega’s white belt. I think there is also some value to Rega’s TTPSU, although it’s not huge. That’s around $800 in upgrades, so it’s certainly a significant cost, but all are worthwhile.


    The MMF-5.1 seems to be tops at its price point, especially if you’re getting a discount. I don’t think a cartridge upgrade would be necessary, but if I had an MMF-5.1 I might want to try to get hold of a glass platter from an MMF-5. Although my own preference is the Rega sound (by a nose), the Rega turntables sound a little forward and thin to some people’s ears. I don’t see this as being the case with Music Hall and Pro-Ject. My MMF-5 sounded a tad laid back to my ears, with a bit of tubbiness that was pleasant and gave a nice illusion of fullness. I enjoyed that turntable and occasionally wish I still had one…if I had a place for another turntable.

    So I suppose the long story short is – I think you might just be very happy with either one.
    noob....what do you mean? There is always a place for another turntable. I really did not care for that cart that came on the Rega P3-24. But from what I could tell of the Table it was nice....its just that cart to my ears and Peabodys was kinda dull and dry. My $99 2M Red best it.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  5. #30
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobody View Post
    Do you know how big the difference is between the mmf 5 and the 5.1? I ask since you mentioned preferring the platter from the 5. And, I see used 5s pretty cheap, even significantly cheaper than what I can get a new 5.1. (not surprising, just saying if there's little to no difference...well...)

    I think I hear the raves Rega tables get, which also seems to lead to them holding their value. And then I see good deals on new P3-24s with people making way for the new models. But yeah, that reputation for being a tad thin and forward pretty much sounds like the opposite direction from what I usually prefer.

    Also, I probably would enjoy either just fine and am splitting hairs. I just figure I don't spend this kinda money often personally, so if I do I want something that sounds good and lasts a good long time. So making a final decision here is going to take a good bit of time and feature a hefty dose consternation.
    If its going to be your last table...Rega may give you the best upgrade path. Me personally I like plug and play tables that I can tweak rather than upgrade.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  6. #31
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    I think either the Deepgroove or Groove Tracer subplatter is a good tweak. On of the claims of the Deepgroove subplatter is very slightly larger to address the 1% faster speed the Rega's are known for and the greater mass creates a better flywheel effect. I do not think using one of the subplatters you would need the TTPSU.

    I cannot comment on Rega cartridges but my Ortofon OM 20 worked well in the arm and I have no doubt the new models also will. Rega makes a nice 3 point spacer that has the option of 2mm, 4mm and 6mm. I once again must say that I do not use or like the Rega Cartridge alignment. Of course if you have a factory mounted Rega cart I would not worry about a different alignment until you change to a different cart if you do.

    Another improvement I recommend is the Michell Technoweight counterweight. The lowered counterweight puts it in the same plane as the cartridge. This improves tracking and to my ears reduces surface noise. You could even decide to set the tracking force with the spring downward force or the counterweight itself.

    I have enjoyed my Rega not only for the music it makes but the fun of tweaking. Over a decade old and still pleases.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  7. #32
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    I don't see myself tweaking too much if at all. I mean, if you enjoy it that's great but before I'd pour another thousand dollars into a table under a thousand I feel like I'd be better off waiting until I can just buy a better table. The tweaking part isn't something I consider fun.

    I'm wanting something I can plug in and use for 5 years or more say and be content with though. Don't want to buy something where I'm spending half my time wondering if I should have spent another hundred or two hundred bucks for something better/different.

  8. #33
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobody View Post
    I don't see myself tweaking too much if at all. I mean, if you enjoy it that's great but before I'd pour another thousand dollars into a table under a thousand I feel like I'd be better off waiting until I can just buy a better table. The tweaking part isn't something I consider fun.

    I'm wanting something I can plug in and use for 5 years or more say and be content with though. Don't want to buy something where I'm spending half my time wondering if I should have spent another hundred or two hundred bucks for something better/different.


    The Rega P3 is a great table as are a number of cars. Many people drive the car stock and some cannot help getting under the hood for improved performance. So yes the Rega is very good on it's own and will last for years.

    The P3 has many improvements in design by Rega since it's first release. The motor is now rigidly mounted and the tonearm has the superior 3 point mounting. These improvements have raised the performance bar. I am considering the latest design RP3. Of course I am still happy with my tweaked Planar2.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  9. #34
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    Good to know.

  10. #35
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    The Rega P3 is a great table as are a number of cars. Many people drive the car stock and some cannot help getting under the hood for improved performance. So yes the Rega is very good on it's own and will last for years.

    The P3 has many improvements in design by Rega since it's first release. The motor is now rigidly mounted and the tonearm has the superior 3 point mounting. These improvements have raised the performance bar. I am considering the latest design RP3. Of course I am still happy with my tweaked Planar2.
    JM...how close are you on pulling the trigger?

    It will be great in that fine system of yours.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  11. #36
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobody View Post
    Do you know how big the difference is between the mmf 5 and the 5.1? I ask since you mentioned preferring the platter from the 5. And, I see used 5s pretty cheap, even significantly cheaper than what I can get a new 5.1. (not surprising, just saying if there's little to no difference...well...)

    I think I hear the raves Rega tables get, which also seems to lead to them holding their value. And then I see good deals on new P3-24s with people making way for the new models. But yeah, that reputation for being a tad thin and forward pretty much sounds like the opposite direction from what I usually prefer.

    Also, I probably would enjoy either just fine and am splitting hairs. I just figure I don't spend this kinda money often personally, so if I do I want something that sounds good and lasts a good long time. So making a final decision here is going to take a good bit of time and feature a hefty dose consternation.
    The main things I remember being changed were the tonearm, the platter and the interconnects. The MMF-5 had the 8.6-inch tonearm from the Pro-Ject 1.2, the glass platter and captive low-end interconnects. The MMF-5.1 has the current-model Pro-Ject 9 tonearm, the alloy platter and an RCA junction box.

    At some point during the run of the MMF-5 Music Hall changed the motor from the 120V model to the 16V model. The 120V motor might be a little harder to find as a replacement part now that it seems to be obsolete from both the Pro-Ject and Music Hall lineups. This is mildly important in that the motors do have a little bit of a tendency to develop a buzz and it seems like maybe it’s more common in the 120V model. Somehow, someway, I’m guessing that 120V motor will be around as a spare part for a while, but who knows for sure. Even assuming the 120V motor is available, the 16V motor would be more desirable in that it works with the Pro-Ject Speed Box. For the 120V models there’s the Music Hall Cruise Control.

    With any of these turntables, they’re no slouches in stock form…even with the metal platter. But if I were to keep the metal platter, I might be interested in trying out other mat options besides felt…maybe a Herbie’s Way Excellent mat.

  12. #37
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    Regarding the Rega turntables and their tendency to run fast - It is my understanding this was corrected long ago. My P5's stock subplatter is the same as is used for the lower turntables in the Rega lineup and I timed it to check for this issue before I upgraded to the GrooveTracer. With the stock subplatter, timing with a stopwatch for 3 minutes, I counted 100 turns...not anywhere near 101. The editor of Tone Audio had this to say on the issue (although I of course would not say he's the final word), calling it Myth #1:



    Given that, if overall speed accuracy is what you're after, you won't need a subplatter upgrade on the Rega turntables. The metal subplatters and the accompanying bearing upgrade will provide other improvements that are audible to many. I believe the sound is slightly smoother, tighter and cleaner...enough to make the upgrade worth my money, although I'd admit it might not be worth it to every Rega owner.

  13. #38
    Forum Regular Jack in Wilmington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02audionoob View Post
    The main things I remember being changed were the tonearm, the platter and the interconnects. The MMF-5 had the 8.6-inch tonearm from the Pro-Ject 1.2, the glass platter and captive low-end interconnects. The MMF-5.1 has the current-model Pro-Ject 9 tonearm, the alloy platter and an RCA junction box.

    At some point during the run of the MMF-5 Music Hall changed the motor from the 120V model to the 16V model. The 120V motor might be a little harder to find as a replacement part now that it seems to be obsolete from both the Pro-Ject and Music Hall lineups. This is mildly important in that the motors do have a little bit of a tendency to develop a buzz and it seems like maybe it’s more common in the 120V model. Somehow, someway, I’m guessing that 120V motor will be around as a spare part for a while, but who knows for sure. Even assuming the 120V motor is available, the 16V motor would be more desirable in that it works with the Pro-Ject Speed Box. For the 120V models there’s the Music Hall Cruise Control.

    With any of these turntables, they’re no slouches in stock form…even with the metal platter. But if I were to keep the metal platter, I might be interested in trying out other mat options besides felt…maybe a Herbie’s Way Excellent mat.

    I can attest to the performance of the Herbie's Mat. I got tired of the felt mat real fast. With the threaded spindle clamp, I feel much more secure with the Herbie's mat underneath.
    2 Channel System
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  14. #39
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02audionoob View Post
    Regarding the Rega turntables and their tendency to run fast - It is my understanding this was corrected long ago. My P5's stock subplatter is the same as is used for the lower turntables in the Rega lineup and I timed it to check for this issue before I upgraded to the GrooveTracer. With the stock subplatter, timing with a stopwatch for 3 minutes, I counted 100 turns...not anywhere near 101. The editor of Tone Audio had this to say on the issue (although I of course would not say he's the final word), calling it Myth #1:



    Given that, if overall speed accuracy is what you're after, you won't need a subplatter upgrade on the Rega turntables. The metal subplatters and the accompanying bearing upgrade will provide other improvements that are audible to many. I believe the sound is slightly smoother, tighter and cleaner...enough to make the upgrade worth my money, although I'd admit it might not be worth it to every Rega owner.


    It used to be said that the Rega's sounded better in England than they did here and that was due to the difference of 50 hz to 60 hz power.

    http://www.stereophile.com/content/r...low-march-2005


    Rega Planar 5 & Planar 7 turntables Follow-Up, March 2005



    AD returned to the Regas in March 2005 (Vol.28 No.3):
    In his February 2003 "Analog Corner" column (Vol.26 No.2), Michael Fremer had some interesting things to say about speed accuracy in contemporary turntables. In particular, he observed that a goodly number of them run at least 1% fast, and he wondered if that sprang from a deliberate effort on the part of some manufacturers to create a more appealing sound. "Things sound snappy and lively" when a record is played back on a fast-running turntable, he wrote, with stereo images seeming to shift forward. "I don't know if this represents a mere sample-to-sample variation," Mikey continued, "or if it's a plot to give these 'tables a snappy delivery, as some who shall remain nameless have charged."

    As I said, interesting stuff—but what does it have to do with me? And why did I wait two years to react?

    Because the Rega Planar 3 was among the turntables Mikey found to be running fast—and that might lead one to wonder, not unreasonably, if the same might be true of Rega's new Planar 5 ($1295) and Planar 7 ($2595) models. Which I'd just reviewed, for the December 2004 issue. Since the P5 and P7 were still in my house at the time Mikey and I exchanged e-mails on the subject, a clear answer was clearly within reach—so I set about testing them.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  15. #40
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    JM - That's a remarkable improvement with the P5. Art Dudley wrote that it ran 0.1% fast, as opposed to the previous models running 1% fast, and even notes this was without accounting for stylus drag.

  16. #41
    Linear Guy
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    interconnects

    Regardless of preference, I think it is worth considering a table that allows you to use your own interconnects. That would be a starting point for me. I think you have a bit more power over the sound that way.

    I think I would look at the Project 5.1 combination with the Blue Point 2 cart. Its practically impossible to purchase the table with out the cart since they are bundled by Sumiko, but it is an intriguing 1K combination.with a mid level table..... If you can tolerate the style.

  17. #42
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    Well, that Pro-Ject is a heavy contender. From looking online, it looks to be my favorite and I have found a good deal on one. My only questions boil down to build quality and such. I tried looking around locally for tables and the only things I was able to actually see and lay hands on were a Rega RP1 and P3-24. Now both of these were actually impressive to me. They seemed well-made and I really am almost starting to lean toward grabbing a P3-24 if for no other reason than I can actually touch and feel it before buying, and I'd have support from a local dealer who provides service and upgrades and such.

    The Pro-Ject RM 5.1 SE looks great in pictures but I have no idea how it is in reality. The Rega decks look like I could live with one of them for a while. The design has been stable forever, the arm is practically industry standard for even pricier tables, and they look well made to me. With the new RP3s coming out, it seems like there are some good deals on a P3-24 right now and I'd be surprised if the local guy wasn't willing to cut me a little break knowing this. With the Music Hall and Project tables (local dealers say they can get them but no one seems to actually have one I can look at) I feel like I am shooting a bit blind.

    The local dealer thing really is a vicious circle. They can't afford to stock units when people are not buying or buying online. Then, when they don't stock units, without being able to go in and touch and feel something one of the biggest values a local dealer provides pretty much vanishes. Hell, I was interested enough in the Pro-Ject that if one of the three local places I went to today had one I could actually touch and feel and would at all be reasonable with price, I'd be setting the thing up right now. As it is, well, Rega is starting to look better and better just because I have been able to look one over up close and came away liking what I saw.

  18. #43
    Linear Guy
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    jealous

    I am jealous of your dealer situation. There basically are no delaers of Hi-fi turntables within a 50 mile radius of me and that includes maybe 1.4 million people. All of my assumptions are from the internet. Strange how that works. I never heard of Rega tables when I was a kid living in Chicago but the intetrnet has allowed us considerable input with these tables. I think that has made the job of selection fun or tedious depending on your point of view.

    I really dont know what my last table will be. I am thinking maybe the Marantz/Clearaudio combo for 1,500. We all have our spending limits.

  19. #44
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daviethek View Post
    Regardless of preference, I think it is worth considering a table that allows you to use your own interconnects. That would be a starting point for me. I think you have a bit more power over the sound that way.

    I think I would look at the Project 5.1 combination with the Blue Point 2 cart. Its practically impossible to purchase the table with out the cart since they are bundled by Sumiko, but it is an intriguing 1K combination.with a mid level table..... If you can tolerate the style.


    I would like to ask why are interchangeable IC's important to you? I am from the school of thought where you want continuous wire from the cartridge clips to the RCA plugs. The low signal output of my moving coil cartridge does not have to travel through different wires and many solder joints and different metals.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  20. #45
    Forum Regular Jack in Wilmington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    I would like to ask why are interchangeable IC's important to you? I am from the school of thought where you want continuous wire from the cartridge clips to the RCA plugs. The low signal output of my moving coil cartridge does not have to travel through different wires and many solder joints and different metals.
    Hey JM, it looks like Davie along with the Frenchmon and I all have seen the value of swapping out the stock phono cable for a higher end model. I know Frenchie has raved about the difference his Analysis Plus cable made on his new MMF 7.1 and he got me to make the switch also. Maybe it's a Music Hall thing.
    2 Channel System
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    Pro-ject SE II (Phono Box)
    Rotel RCD-1072 (CD Player)
    Bryston BDA-1 ( DAC )
    Sennheiser HD-600 (Headphones)
    Musical Fidelity Xcan V3 (Headphone Amp) _

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  21. #46
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington View Post
    Hey JM, it looks like Davie along with the Frenchmon and I all have seen the value of swapping out the stock phono cable for a higher end model. I know Frenchie has raved about the difference his Analysis Plus cable made on his new MMF 7.1 and he got me to make the switch also. Maybe it's a Music Hall thing.


    I agree with switching out cables. I switched out my Rega wiring for the Incognito wiring. I chose that due to the continuous Cardas wire from cartridge clips all the way to the RCA's.

    Now if the table has external RCA's and switching cables is easy then by all means. My only table was the Thorens built by Pro-ject and it had captive RCA cables. Once I posted I realized I did not know if the tables had rear mounted RCA's for easy IC change. I would recommend that if anyone was going to do a complete rewire to try the Incognito or any continuous wiring harness.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  22. #47
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    I actually think the 7.1 is a very very good table. It has perfect isolation and vibration control and a excellent arm. I've seen the Music Hall and some of the Pro-Ject table be laughed at and made to seem like they don't belong in the same conversation as Rega's and some other tables....for what I don't know.
    I've seen people say the MH tables are cheaply built and are not as good as Rega's build quality. Both tables have had their share of problems thats for sure.

    I've listened to the P3-24 and the P5. While the 7.1 may have a different presentation as all gear does its every bit as good as those tables and many tables in its price range. I've also listened to the P7...excellent.

    All wiring in the 7.1 and its arm is said to be of high quality, but the rca cables are not said to be...just cables supplied with the table....just as cheap cables come with most gear. Shoot....even the SA-T1 came with cables that looked good but where bested by the A+ inter connect cables. I suspect that most Tables that come cables are not giving very good cables. So nothing wrong with adding your own cables if at all possible.

    Just to clear up the Rega is great and Music Hall is not up to par talk...it was no one on these boards...
    Last edited by frenchmon; 08-05-2011 at 01:43 PM.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    W10 i5 Quad core processor 8GB RAM/Jriver 20/ Fidelizer Optimizer/ iFI Micro DSD DAC-iUSB 3.0/Vincent SA - T1/Vincent SP-331 MK /MMF-7.1/2M BLACK/MS Phenomena ll+/Canton Vento 830.2

  23. #48
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    I don't know that I've seen too much belittling of Music Hall and Pro-Ject, although there are a very small few former Pro-ject owners on the VE forums who could stand to give it a rest. Among people who really know their way around the value end of the market, Pro-Ject tonearms seem to have become well-respected. Roy Hall takes the quality tonearm and puts it on an innovative plinth. It's good. No question.

    By the way...Roy Hall apparently solved Pro-Ject's motor vibration long before this fix that has now hit the European market, given that his MMF-5 used the same motor and subplatter and did not have the Debut's vibration problem.

  24. #49
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    Just for the record, I didn't mean to say I thought Pro-Ject or Music Hall were necessarily shoddy at all. It's just the unknown thing. I was able to get a look at a Rage and it seemed like a quality product, even if it wasn't hooked up to listen, just examining the components certainly gave the impression of a high quality piece of gear. It seemed well made and impressive in that regard. The others may very well be too, but sight unseen, I really can't say. I think for that alone, the Rega may well be in the lead right now. Also, the more I think about it, the more I do also like the notion that it is a classic piece of gear that has passed the test of time.

  25. #50
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    02audionoob...I've seen some over at Audioasylum dog Pro-Ject and Music Hall only because they got the money to buy super high end tables...but I do strongly agree with your remarks over at Audiokarma about the tables not really being better than the other. I agree that they have different sound...and it does really boil down to preference.

    nobody..my remarks where not directed at you at all...infact no body on these boards... I agree with everything you said. But if I where in your shoes...I'd wait and see what the 5.1 Wylie has is like before I made a decision. It may be the cheapest for the same performance of the other tables.
    Last edited by frenchmon; 08-06-2011 at 10:23 AM.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    W10 i5 Quad core processor 8GB RAM/Jriver 20/ Fidelizer Optimizer/ iFI Micro DSD DAC-iUSB 3.0/Vincent SA - T1/Vincent SP-331 MK /MMF-7.1/2M BLACK/MS Phenomena ll+/Canton Vento 830.2

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