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Pro-Ject 1.2 vs Technics SL1300
I currently own a Technics SL1300 TT with a shure M97xE cart. A buddy of mine has offered me a deal on a Pro-Ject 1.2 with I believe an ortofon cart for $175. Is this a good upgrade? Or would money be better spent on a better phono preamp for the Technics? Currently I have it plugged into the phono input on the back of my home theater receiver. The automation of the Technics is nice, but I can live with a simpler table if it means better sound. Thanks
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The Project 1.2 comes with an Ortofon OM5E as the standard cart, which is one of the entry level carts in Ortofon's OM series. You might want to actually consider swapping out the cartridge on your turntable if you're looking to spend around $175. All things considered, Technics makes decent turntables, and the cartridge defines the tonal characteristics of your vinyl setup. I would guess that your current turntable with a cartridge upgrade would outperform the Project with that entry level Ortofon. The Ortofon OM series starts getting interesting when you move up to the OM20. J&R is currently selling that cartridge for $110.
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My mistake, its actually an Oyster (sp?) cartridge on the pro-ject, does that make a difference?
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I agree. If it's working properly, the old Technics probably has just as much potential as the budget Project. Possibly better isolation due to higher mass.
I just put some nice, new headshell leads and interconnects on my vintage table. Big improvement. I suspect the connectors on the old headshell leads and interconnects may have been a little tarnished (they weren't gold plated) because that's the only way I can explain the big boost in performance I got. Using contact cleaner and Pro Gold on the old ones may have worked just as well. I need to pick up some contact cleaner for the headshell connectors. I'm also thinking that there are probably slide-on connectors connecting the tonearm wires to the female part of the headshell connector. Dare I try to get in there for some cleaning and Pro Gold?....or would I break the little wires and cry? I've done repair work to tonearm wiring before. Very difficult to solder without melting too much insulation off of the wire or clogging tiny connectors with solder. (I'm sure there are the right tools for the job, but I don't have them!!!) That Ortofon OM20 is starting to sound pretty tempting also. A good preamp can make a difference. Probably lots of ways to make your Technics sound better than the stock 1.2 for less money. Wouldn't be surprised if it outperformed the 1.2 as-is.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHaq
My mistake, its actually an Oyster (sp?) cartridge on the pro-ject, does that make a difference?
Yes, it does make a difference. I have the Pro-Ject 1.2 that came with the Sumiko Oyster. The new Pro-Ject line starts with the Debut III that comes with the Ortofon OM10, I think (or an OM5E). The 1.2 used to be Pro-Ject's $300 table. Now, the line starts with the Debut III at about $279. After that is the new 1Xpression which looks interesting, but it's listed at $449.
I saw a Debut III yesterday while I was in Atlanta. The tone arm is not as substantial as the 1.2's. If I was just getting into vinyl, I don't think I would start with the Debut. The 1.2 was probably one of the better entry-level tables, just ahead of the Music Hall MMF2.1 which is still available.
But, back to your question about the Oyster. I thought it sounded like bad digital - like the harsh, tinny, thin sounding cds and cd players of the mid 80s. But the 1.2 can handle better cartridges. The Oyster is Sumiko's lowest priced cart. The Pro-Ject dealer I spoke to yesterday recommended an Ortofon X3-MC, a high output moving coil with a list of $275, but can be found for around $200. He also recommended the Shure M97XE which can be found for $89 (I see you already have this cart). He suggested that I might have hum problems with a Grado cart due to the shielding issue.
I would see if your buddy will let you try the Pro-Ject with your Shure cart. That should make or break the deal.
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Thanks for the replies guys, I decided to stick with my technics. It's been good to me so far, and my buddy wasn't going to let me try the pro-ject with my cartridge or system before buying and was basically telling me "buy it tonight or i'm putting it on ebay."....Not the best conditions to make a purchasing decision like that. Plus, having to open up the pro-ject and tinker inside just to switch between 45 and 33.3 rpm seemed more than a little inconvenient.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHaq
My mistake, its actually an Oyster (sp?) cartridge on the pro-ject, does that make a difference?
Huge difference. I had the Sumiko Black Pearl (which is the next step up from the Oyster) most recently on my turntable and couldn't wait for it to wear out, so I could get rid of it. The sound on that Sumiko was generally flat and uninvolving. It had a good fat sounding midrange, but records with more extended highs and lows did not fare well with that cart. The Oyster is a $40 cartridge, and if it's a step down from the Black Pearl, you're hearing nowhere near what vinyl is capable of.
Switching from the Ortofon OM series to that Sumiko was a regrettable decision on my part (I did it primarily because Ortofon had nearly doubled the price on the OM series since the last time I had replaced the cartridge, and all the dealers in my area had stopped carrying the brand). I recently installed an OM30 on my turntable (bought it for $160 during the recent Ortofon sale), and I'm a happy vinyl junkie again.
I think if you plunk down $110 for an Ortofon OM20, your Technics setup will deliver superior performance to that Project/Sumiko combo. Keep in mind that the list price on the OM20 is $195 and Ortofon's sale is now over, but J&R still has the sale price on their website and LP Gear is telling people to e-mail them for the reduced price.
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To my ears a good belt drive TT sounds better than a good direct drive. I have invited comparisons with several friends. They have brought over various direct drive TT's and compared them to my VPI (in use) and my old modified AR (in the closet). Every one of them has replaced their direct drive TT with a belt drive. Music Hall's were bought by 3 out of the 5. A Project and a Basis being the other two.
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Woochifer, how would the $110 Ortofon cart compare to my shure M97xE? I payed $100 for the shure to replace the old grado cart that was in the technics when I bought it. I enjoy the sound of the shure but I find that it sounds rather sterile compared to the grado (almost like cd sound in fact).
JoeE, I have heard that belt drives are preferred by some. What are the improvements in sound? Does it do anything besides reduce rumble? And are belt drives more difficult to maintain? Thanks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHaq
Woochifer, how would the $110 Ortofon cart compare to my shure M97xE? I payed $100 for the shure to replace the old grado cart that was in the technics when I bought it. I enjoy the sound of the shure but I find that it sounds rather sterile compared to the grado (almost like cd sound in fact).
JoeE, I have heard that belt drives are preferred by some. What are the improvements in sound? Does it do anything besides reduce rumble? And are belt drives more difficult to maintain? Thanks
It's been years since I've heard one of the M97xEs, but in general the Ortofon will likely have brighter and livelier sound. The sound on the Ortofon might also seem somewhat lean in the mids compared to the Shure, but the overall sound on the Ortofon is pretty tight.
I've not had a chance to try the Grados, though I always hear about how well they perform. The only concern with them is that they tend to hum with certain turntables (including mine, which is why I did not opt for one when I recently replaced my cartridge).
Belt drive tuntables are preferable due to their mechanical simplicity. Direct drive turntables require high torque motors, and they tend to breakdown more often. Maintenance on a belt drive turntable is primarily the belt replacement, and that's usually a simple procedure, unless you're going with a fully automatic/idler wheel model.
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Woochifer covered what I was going to say about maintaining a belt drive. My jr which over the years has been upgraded to full HW-19 state has had only belt replacements over the years.
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Thanks for the info guys, but get this: My Technics busted today for the first time, just two days after I considered buying that belt drive pro-ject! I flipped the lever to start it up and the arm moved halfway to the starting position before the whole thing made a clicking noise and locked up. The arm hung in place as the platter slowly stopped spinning. Is there anything I can do besides take it into a shop if I haven't dealt with anything like this before? Or would I risk further damage by opening it up to check things out? hmmmmmm
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uh! depending on how adventurous and skillfull you are, u might wanna consider opening it up. Keep in mind that an automatic turntable will be a hell of wheels and pulleys inside, and that you're likely to open up hell if you take sth apart and a spring propels the whole mechanism onto the floor...
HOWEVER! with care, patience and nimble hands simple mechanical flaws like this are usually easy to spot and repair.
If you have always liked taking things apart and putting them back together, then the time has come to make that USEFUL! if you are a fumblefingers and you have trouble changing a lightbulb, i would suggest you take it down to the shop...
also, this is probably a stupid reminder, but all interconnects and cartrdidge (and arm if possible) should come off before trying to open it.
Cheers!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHaq
I currently own a Technics SL1300 TT with a shure M97xE cart. A buddy of mine has offered me a deal on a Pro-Ject 1.2 with I believe an ortofon cart for $175. Is this a good upgrade? Or would money be better spent on a better phono preamp for the Technics? Currently I have it plugged into the phono input on the back of my home theater receiver. The automation of the Technics is nice, but I can live with a simpler table if it means better sound. Thanks
Well its too bad your TT broke down but this is a great time to look for a new (new to you that is TT). There are so many good TT on the used market right now that you should be able to pick something better then you have. I would try looking for a rega planar 2/3 with there RB-250 arm its long time fave of many , sounds great and can be had on the used market for less then $300 if you shop right try Audiogon.com or canuckaudiomart.ca other then AR . good luck and enjoy the music
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