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Agreed, use your current pre amp. Does the table have a cart with it? I told you I will send you the Ortofon if you want. Budget cart, but a good place to start. Like JRA said, you need to start listening and get an ear for vinyl. I wouldn't drop too much to begin. Once your tastes develop, your ear will know what's what. From this point you can seek out a better cart or stage.
I have the Ortofon OMB-10 for you. It's virtually new, with about 50 hours on it. Perfect, broken in so you can get right to listening with it's full potential. Remember the stylus is upgradable. The OM-20 and OM-30 stylii represent some pretty sweet fidelity. I wouldn't worry about MC right now, perhaps start reading about high output moving coil (HOMC).
To give you some perspective, my local shop equips their Pro-Ject Debut tables with an Ortofon OM-10.
Some good reading...
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/d.pl?...faq.html#vinyl
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Keep in mind Frenchie, going to vinyl from a CDP can be a bit of a slap in the head. The output of a CDP leans on the powerful side, whereas your TT will be subtle. Don't be afraid to turn up your volume knob a bit, and remember that in that subtlety lies the dynamics that can turn a CDP out.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhymeammo
http://www.rotel.com/content/manuals/rc1090_multi.pdf
According to the manual on page 8, it seems your preamp is capable of all types of cartridge, including low output moving coil. But if you go with LOMC, noise may become an issue, and LOMC cartridges tend to be expensive.
Does your TT come with the Tracker cartridge?
I would stick to your internal phonostage for now, and save up for a good external unit down the road. There are tons of sub $200 external units, but I would want to make sure it's an upgrade and not a lateral move. If TT comes premounted, then forgot about upgrade, just enjoy music for now, my friend. We'll be here when you need to upgrade after you had time to break'er in.
Peace
Thanks for the advice about the phono stage...i can wait until I get use to the vinyl sound. I think this is going to be different from the days back in the 80's. But I have read a few reviews that said to dump the cheap cart that comes with the table...got any recommendations?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Agreed, use your current pre amp. Does the table have a cart with it? I told you I will send you the Ortofon if you want. Budget cart, but a good place to start. Like JRA said, you need to start listening and get an ear for vinyl. I wouldn't drop too much to begin. Once your tastes develop, your ear will know what's what. From this point you can seek out a better cart or stage.
I have the Ortofon OMB-10 for you. It's virtually new, with about 50 hours on it. Perfect, broken in so you can get right to listening with it's full potential. Remember the stylus is upgradable. The OM-20 and OM-30 stylii represent some pretty sweet fidelity. I wouldn't worry about MC right now, perhaps start reading about high output moving coil (HOMC).
To give you some perspective, my local shop equips their Pro-Ject Debut tables with an Ortofon OM-10.
Some good reading...
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/d.pl?...faq.html#vinyl
OK...I'll take the cart poppaC...and I betcha santa will be good to you christmas. Still got my address? The reviews said it comes with a cheap cart.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Keep in mind Frenchie, going to vinyl from a CDP can be a bit of a slap in the head. The output of a CDP leans on the powerful side, whereas your TT will be subtle. Don't be afraid to turn up your volume knob a bit, and remember that in that subtlety lies the dynamics that can turn a CDP out.
I cant wait. I remember going from playing records in the 80's to C, was an eye opener back the...sold all my albums, and I had a lots of albums back then....we use to keep them in those "peaches" crates. Now I am doing the reverse. Wonder if it will make me get rid of my CD's? LOL!
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Hey Frenchie, Congrats on your excursion in the world of vinyl. I have the MMF 2.1 LE and it is a very nice starter table. I would say it is a small step above the Rega's and the Project entry level tables. I'm starting to look at an upgrade table now after about a year. So enjoy and give yourself a little while to get back into vinyl. The year has given me a chance to build up a small collection of 180 and 200 gram LP's that will only sound better on a better table.
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Technically the OM-10 is "cheap". Let's see what arrives with it.
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As far as I've seen, the mmf-2.1 ships with a Goldring Elan. That cartridge would probably give a presentation that is perhaps smooth and warm by comparison to most Ortofon cartridges. I would definitely give the Elan a try...especially since it will be mounted and aligned, already. I would think the Ortofon OM cartridges would be a good match for the 2.1's tonearm, if you like the Ortofon sound. I would imagine if I owned a 2.1, I'd never seriously consider an MC cartridge for it, unless maybe I'd consider a Denon DL-110. There are too many better MM options.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington
Hey Frenchie, Congrats on your excursion in the world of vinyl. I have the MMF 2.1 LE and it is a very nice starter table. I would say it is a small step above the Rega's and the Project entry level tables. I'm starting to look at an upgrade table now after about a year. So enjoy and give yourself a little while to get back into vinyl. The year has given me a chance to build up a small collection of 180 and 200 gram LP's that will only sound better on a better table.
Thanks Jack...it just arrived about 1/2hour ago.I think I will wait until tomorrow to assemble it seeing I dont have any albums at my home. What did the LE look like? Got any pictures of it? And what cart do you use? How is teh phono imput on the Onkyo?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Technically the OM-10 is "cheap". Let's see what arrives with it.
Its got a Music Hall tracker cart.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02audionoob
As far as I've seen, the mmf-2.1 ships with a Goldring Elan. That cartridge would probably give a presentation that is perhaps smooth and warm by comparison to most Ortofon cartridges. I would definitely give the Elan a try...especially since it will be mounted and aligned, already. I would think the Ortofon OM cartridges would be a good match for the 2.1's tonearm, if you like the Ortofon sound. I would imagine if I owned a 2.1, I'd never seriously consider an MC cartridge for it, unless maybe I'd consider a Denon DL-110. There are too many better MM options.
noob...kindly explain what the difference is and teh advantage is of OM cart, a MC cart, and a MM cart. And why would you go with a MM cart? Sorry...ima dummy.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
noob...kindly explain what the difference is and teh advantage is of OM cart, a MC cart, and a MM cart. And why would you go with a MM cart? Sorry...ima dummy.
The Music Hall Tracker is a Goldring built to Music Hall's specs, so it should sound like a Goldring. Most budget cartridges are MM, with quite a few exceptions. They utilize a technology that in general produces less detail than MC. This is not necessarily a bad thing. The MM sound can often seem more relaxed that MC, on average. The Ortofon sound leans a little away from that, to some people's ears sounding maybe more like the MC cartridges than most MM cartridges.
The reason I might go with a MM cartridge is largely the multitude of options in the budget price range. For around $100 or less, you could have an Ortofon 2M Red, Ortofon OM-10, Nagaoka MP-11, Shure M97XE, Audio-Technica AT95E, Goldring Elan, etc. The closest to that price range among the MC cartridges is the Denon DL-110 at $139 and after that nothing is even all that close, except for the Denon DL-160 at $179 and the Ortofon MC1 at $175.
Also...Many of the MM cartridges weigh more and use lighter tracking forces than many of the MC cartridges...something that will probably match up better with the light tonearm on the mmf-2.1.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Thanks Jack...it just arrived about 1/2hour ago.I think I will wait until tomorrow to assemble it seeing I dont have any albums at my home. What did the LE look like? Got any pictures of it? And what cart do you use? How is teh phono imput on the Onkyo?
Can't seem to get the pictures loaded. It's the same as your table but the plinith is finished in a Ferrari Red color. I'm using the Tracker that came with the table. The Onkyo phono input only handles MM cartridges so I couldn't see putting a lot of money in a high dollar cart. When I upgrade, I'll stepup to a better cart. I did buy a level and a stylus brush and some good record sleeves.
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Congrats Frenchie!! Make sure you find a nice spot for your new table. It's not suspended so it will be susceptible to vibrations. Clear and away from the speakers obviously, and not atop anything that is prone to vibrating. Your new word of the day....islolate!!
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Frenchmon, a couple models of the Dynavector are Moving Coil high output which means they have the benefit of Moving Coil but can be played through the MM input. Wylie and I were talking about those Saturday, not sure if you were tuned in to us during that time or enjoying the music. One would cost more than you paid for your current table though. I use Moving Magnet myself.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Frenchmon, a couple models of the Dynavector are Moving Coil high output
pffft...that's so post 81...;)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
pffft...that's so post 81...;)
Quit whining like a little school girl.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Frenchmon, a couple models of the Dynavector are Moving Coil high output which means they have the benefit of Moving Coil but can be played through the MM input. Wylie and I were talking about those Saturday, not sure if you were tuned in to us during that time or enjoying the music. One would cost more than you paid for your current table though. I use Moving Magnet myself.
This decision shouldn't be based on cost ratios. The more important question is whether the arm and cart are a good match, and if the arm can exploit the carts full potential. I don't know the 2.1's arm, so I can't comment on a well suited HOMC. A good idea would be to contact Needle Doctor for advice.
The HOMC would be a great idea for someone in Frenchie's position. Unsure about vinyl, but has an experienced ear and requires a certain amount of fidelity. These carts are worlds beyond a typical MM, however not as capable as their MC cousins. I think the 2.1 will be too noisy for a proper MC cart.
SL-1200 owners are a great example of this. Ask a typical 1200 owner about his deck, he'll tell you the speed stability is king, but the arm not so much. At a minimum, these guys usually mod the stock arm, however, alot replace the arm altogether. From this point they'll put a fancy HOMC or MC cart on it.
There's a wonderful selection of these carts now, with a few like the Blue Point and DL-160 even having cult status already. Well worth the investment, if the conditions are ripe for it.
At roughly $180, some might argue that the Denon DL-160 is one of the best cartridge values out there.
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The MM Carts typically reside in the budget arena and that is often why MC carts are said to be better (but they cost more) and like most things the more you pay the more you get. So yes a $2,000 MC cart will sound better than $150 MM cart but a $1000 MM cart will sound better than $400 MC cart.
My Cartridge sounds like an MC cart in most ways without some of the problemsrelated to picking up external noise or fussiness of set-up. It is Audio Note's top of the line MM cart and runs $1,200. For me for personal use it is an end of the road kind of cartridge. Moving up would be their entry level MC cart at about $3,000 where in their view is the beginning of where MC technology begins - and thye have tried every competing MC cart in the world.
The issue become about money. I can't speak for every turntable set-up of course - not at all - but going down the MC road and to do it better than the best MM carts will cost a ton. My dealer carries several of the best known turntables and carts and when they get into MC carts they also prefer to put them on better turntables - their favorite "budget" (chortle chortle) high end table is the Voyd Reference or old TT2 with three motor system. Used you'd probably pay $5,000.
It's a road I will look at but probably 10-15 years down the line. I would recommend against the Shure M97xE however. I had one for years - it is a very nice sounding cart for the money but it really doesn't let the star qualities of vinyl through. It has a kind of dead sound. Quiet and tracks great. Perhaps I am being unfair comparing it to my new cart at many times the price but the big improvement in the "jump factor" and live open presentation is startling and I can't go back. Maybe look at a Shure's top of the line MM as it might open up more.
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Indeed Rich, things get murky when one must consider high end MM vs. MC. I have heard the 2M Black several times on three different tables, it was impressive in each case. I think most vinyl types view MM beneath MC, but on some occasions this isn't the case.
You didn't mention anything regarding HOMC. No thoughts on these?
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Well Frenchie, looks like the arm is somewhat limited on this table. You will have to stick with lighter MM carts I think. The OM-10 would be great if you grow tired of the stock cart.
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Well I went to moms and got the albums. I threw most of them out...to many scratches...dad did not take very good care of his music. I did manage to save a few. I found a few blues album that sounded good..one guy, Hound Dog Taylor sounded good even though it was a cheap record lable. I found an old album by Pebbie Snow and it too sounded very good. But the gem of the lot was an old Lonnie Smith album with Lee Morgan and Fathead Newman recorded on Blue Note...that thing sounded good. I also found a pretty good Dione Warwick album that sounded good. When you guys play vinyl, do you have to turn up the volume a little more to get a good out put? I did notice while the highs where not as detailed, Lee Morgan's trumpet as well as Fat Dave Newman sax sounded richer. THere is also a more pronounced bass.
PoppaC, I called Music Hall about the arm. It can be changed if I drill the hole out a bit, But according to the instruction book, I can change carts all the way up to 2grams. The way it is it sounds good, but you know me...I like to tweak things. I've heard that an acrylic platter over at acoustic sounds improves the sound as well as a speed box. The 2.2 has the up graded arm...the same as the 5.1
This table is not as bad as some of the reviews said, but what do I know...the last table I owned was around 1985 or so.
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http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge...&submit=Submit
Frenchie,
I think your TT has a same tonearm as the one come with Pro-Ject Debut. If so, the tonearm mass is at 9.5grams. Above link shows tonearm vs. cartridge compatibility.
As long as you start within Green area, you will be fine.
e.g. -
5 grams* with dynamic compliance of 14 - 30.
7 grams* with dynamic compliance of 12 - 27.
* Cartridge weight+nuts+bolts+washers+others.
A Resonance Frequency of 10Hz is said to be best, but I'm not going to discuss it here because some people would start an argument...
Have you cleaned your dad's old LP?
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Dynamic compliance can be a difficult spec to nail down. Many US and UK manufacturers seem to publish only a static compliance number, which can differ from dynamic compliance by as much as 2x. The Japanese manufacturers seem to publish a compliance number at 100 Hz, which can differ from 10 Hz by as much as 0.5x.
Based on the chart at Vinyl Engine, a Goldring Elektra (which looks like the Music Hall tracker) would fall at around 10 Hz on the chart only if you assume its static compliance of 16 could be used in place of a dynamic number. If you assume dynamic to be half of static you'd be off into the orange area. That's why I think the OM-10 is perhaps a better match than the cartridge that shipped with the turntable...unless you're one of those who believes the resonant frequency should be up around 15 Hz.
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Frenchie, I answered your question regarding the volume a few posts ago. I figured this would be a concern for you. This is my post...
Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Keep in mind Frenchie, going to vinyl from a CDP can be a bit of a slap in the head. The output of a CDP leans on the powerful side, whereas your TT will be subtle. Don't be afraid to turn up your volume knob a bit, and remember that in that subtlety lies the dynamics that can turn a CDP out.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhymeammo
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge...&submit=Submit
Frenchie,
I think your TT has a same tonearm as the one come with Pro-Ject Debut. If so, the tonearm mass is at 9.5grams. Above link shows tonearm vs. cartridge compatibility.
As long as you start within Green area, you will be fine.
e.g. -
5 grams* with dynamic compliance of 14 - 30.
7 grams* with dynamic compliance of 12 - 27.
* Cartridge weight+nuts+bolts+washers+others.
A Resonance Frequency of 10Hz is said to be best, but I'm not going to discuss it here because some people would start an argument...
Have you cleaned your dad's old LP?
Many of them where scratch so bad, I put them in the garage to go out with the trash But I did manage to save about 30 of them. Is there any tricks to cleaning them? or just plain old water and a cloth?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Frenchie, I answered your question regarding the volume a few posts ago. I figured this would be a concern for you. This is my post...
Oh yeah thats right...and I think I do here what you are talking about...the horns sounded great and the bass was alot thicker with some weight.
frenchmon
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Use 3 to 1, distilled water to isopropyl alcohol with a drop of dish soap.
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Ok..thanks. going to get some grub and then headed to the two channel.
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Poppa,
If you are not using a record cleaning machine, with a rinse cycle I'm not sure about using a drop of dish soup. If anything I would stay the hell away from it. How can it not leave residue over time?
I haven't tried it myself, but it just doesn't make any sense to me...
If you feel like adding something other than H2O and Isopro, you may want to look into Photoflow.
JRA
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JRA, I should have included quantities. I mix a 4L jug of distilled water when I make a batch, I put a drop into that. Some people like Woolite...
I am not alone... http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/fluids.html
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Oh yeah thats right...and I think I do here what you are talking about...the horns sounded great and the bass was alot thicker with some weight.
frenchmon
I'll be interested to see how long until your ears REALLY start picking up on the differences. You will find that you don't need to try too hard, it will just come from time spent.
One area I enjoy analog over digital is with drums. Considering a CDP on par with your 2.1, cymbals tend to be a nightmare. Some recordings I can't even listen to, the ride cymbal sounds like one extended hiss. You may find with vinyl more definition and percussive groove with cymbals, also top end will have a more realistic shimmer.
Snare drum is another aspect where a CDP can be too forward or bright, giving the snare a really attacking and harsh tone.
The last thing I find is that my analog rig images a drummer "better", at least to my taste. The CDP will be doing fine, until the drummer takes a solo. Then all of a sudden his kit is on top of the saxophonist and he is practically bashing you in the head with his sticks.
Of course, your digital set up exceeds your analog. You may find the opposite is true. BTW, I have "The Meeting", good stuff. If you want a good example of what I'm talking about, listen to some Police on CD and then vinyl, see what you think. Stewart Copeland is capable of a symphony with his right hand.
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I was using a drop or two of dishwashing detergent for a while, with no noticeable residue. I have since changed my surfactant to Jet-Dry. Here's how I dry mine...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3520/...af02bb6198.jpg
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Hey Noob,
What model of Dry Vac did you go with?
I was thinking about getting one to put inside of a simple enclosure, but I was worried about its high intesity suction. I figured a simple 1 Gallon unit would be sufficient, but I'm affraid it would terrorize the surface.
Thanks,
JRA
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That's the 2-gallon Craftsman Clean-n-Carry. I think it's about the same power as an upright vacuum.
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What do you do with that...wash the album by hand and then suck the water of with the vac?
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I can kinda get a feel for vinyl and what it possibly can do. But im not really feeling it with the albums I have. Many of them you can hear the very subtle scratches and pops in the music...not loud and hardly noticeable but they are there and I can hear it. Do you guys have scratches and pops??? Is that just one of the things that come with todays vinylhobbyist? Also the best recording I have is Phebie Snow so I think i can kinda see what it can do for me.. I also noticed many of yester years albums are bad recordings, just like a bad recorded CD.
I like the bass and drums that I hear, but the cymbals are rolled off. I hate rolled off highs. So I think a cart as well as new albums are in order. What is this stuff about 180G albums? And what brand of cart will still give me good bass, drums and brass without rolling of the highs? Do most of you guys just by different carts and have like a collection? Is todays muisc recorded on Albums better than some of the stuff recorded back in the day? I've read even tho the 2.1 is an entry level deck to test the waters of vinyl, that its better than many of yester years entry models models like the Maantz I was trying to get...so I think I need to just get new albums??? a new Cart??? a new phonoamp? I know I can get better sound than what I have...MrPs Rega 2 sounded pretty good, as well as my friend who has the vintage VPI table.
frenchmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
What do you do with that...wash the album by hand and then suck the water of with the vac?
Yes...I apply my water/alcohol/Jet-Dry solution with a synthetic paint brush and vacuum it up. If it needs deeper cleaning, I clean it just like dishes in the sink, then paint it with my solution and vacuum it up.
A good cleaning will dramatically reduce ticks and pops. Some of them are particles of grit or dust, while other ticks are just static. Either way, cleaning helps. Don't rub records dry, though. That will create static rather than dissipating it.
Also...a little bit of the ticks and pops are part of the nature of vinyl. If you can't get to where you hear past that, you'll never be happy with vinyl. I'd definitely listen for a while before considering upgrades and alternate cartridges. Many people seem to give up on vinyl when they realize they can't be happy with the background noises.
In my experience, the 180g albums can actually have a darker sound...I don't know that I could recommend them. The darker sound you're hearing could be at least partly the Goldring sound...something that would be smoother and warmer than the more-detailed Ortofon or Audio-Technica MM cartridges. You might like something like the Audio-Technica AT440MLa, although I can't say that I do. It should give you noticeably more treble than the Tracker.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02audionoob
Yes...I apply my water/alcohol/Jet-Dry solution with a synthetic paint brush and vacuum it up. If it needs deeper cleaning, I clean it just like dishes in the sink, then paint it with my solution and vacuum it up.
A good cleaning will dramatically reduce ticks and pops. Some of them are particles of grit or dust, while other ticks are just static. Either way, cleaning helps. Don't rub records dry, though. That will create static rather than dissipating it.
Also...a little bit of the ticks and pops are part of the nature of vinyl. If you can't get to where you hear past that, you'll never be happy with vinyl. I'd definitely listen for a while before considering upgrades and alternate cartridges. Many people seem to give up on vinyl when they realize they can't be happy with the background noises.
In my experience, the 180g albums can actually have a darker sound...I don't know that I could recommend them. The darker sound you're hearing could be at least partly the Goldring sound...something that would be smoother and warmer than the more-detailed Ortofon or Audio-Technica MM cartridges. You might like something like the Audio-Technica AT440MLa, although I can't say that I do. It should give you noticeably more treble than the Tracker.
Bou noob...you are a walking living trouble shoot guide...I keep coming up with questions and you keep answering them. I really appreciate you doing this time of discovery for me.
frenchmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Bou noob...you are a walking living trouble shoot guide...I keep coming up with questions and you keep answering them. I really appreciate you doing this time of discovery for me.
frenchmon
No problem. As you might have noticed, I love this stuff...as do jra and poppa.
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