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I'm with 02AN on this, you can't really see the potential by buying entry level. I was about to sell off my LP's and analog. My Pioneer was good but not as good as my Krell CDP at the time. I borrowed the P2 and it totally changed my mind. I didn't realize vinyl could sound that good.
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But he really doesn't have other TT to compare it to. I guess it's just a personal preference, but if frenchmon like what $100 TT offers, then he will certainly step up the ladder and go with a solid $500 deck. If I was to spend $500 on a TT, I would make sure my money is well spent on a supplied tonearm.
If I was to start all over again, I would not go for a $100 TT, but I already know analog is something I want to pursue.
JRA
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I know at least one place in town that would allow him to bring something home to audition if he was serious.
Others may have a different view but me personally if the turntable wasn't on par with what ever my current digital rig was it would be a waste of money because I wouldn't listen to it. That's why I sold off all my cassettes and deck. By "on par" I mean at least high enough fidelity I would enjoy it enough to be an alternative to CD. Frenchmon for the most part is a serious listener, not one to just have background music. He listens similar to me, kicked back between the speakers.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
I know at least one place in town that would allow him to bring something home to audition if he was serious.
He listens similar to me, kicked back between the speakers.
I think you've helped me solve it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
A local guy has a old pioneer he wants me to look at and selling for 70 bucks.
frenchmon
What's the model number Byron?
As I told you in post 4 (way ahead of my time), I agree with the sentiment that budget may not be satisfying.
However, I also think JRA has a great point regarding upgrading and tweaking an older table. It can be satisfying and rewarding. This of course all depends on whether that's your cup of tea to begin with. For every satisfying moment in analog, there is an equally demoralizing one.
The older tables can be great to learn on. Taking them apart to upgrade and tweak will teach you the ins and outs, and remove any fear or doubt regarding your deck.
I didn't realise that you were having doubts about analog. If this is the case you should buy used. This will minimize any losses should you decide to re-sell.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02audionoob
I think for someone with a nice system and a discerning ear trying to see what analog can do requires a good analog setup. Can you truly see what analog can do with an old budget turntable?
I dont know noob, but I really love the way some of those old players look. Some of them in my opinion have such character. Look at these tables....they are beautiful in my opinion.
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/3...ghitachiht.jpg
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http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/3...encob52bt2.jpg
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Now I've read in places that these old decks sound good when given a little love, but they are not audiophile quality. But they are just stunning with good looks in my opinion...so much character. To me the Music Halls, Pro-ject, Rega's, Denon's, are whatever today just dont look as good, but they may sound better than the old players...i guess not enough audiophile sound quality....whatever that means.
Peabody and I last night listened to an old VPI table...this thing was huge....I dont know about MrP, but to me that thing sounded so good....boy did it sound good. IT was hook up to a Musical Designs tubed preamp, a Musical Designs hybrid tubed amp, Gallo speakers...Analysis Plus speaker cable and inter connects. It sounded good....I told MrPeabody I could just sit on that guys couch all night and just listened to music.
The guy who had it was a dealer of Music Hall and he said he could get the Music Hall 2.2 for $342 buck....
But I saw an old Marantz 6300 that works but needs some love...
The guy across the street from me is a wood worker...he may be able to help me bring it back to its glory days
Dont know what Im going to do as of yet.
I called the guy about the Pioneer on craigslist, he was not in....he has sense then removed it....I forgot which model it was.
frechmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
What's the model number Byron?
As I told you in post 4 (way ahead of my time), I agree with the sentiment that budget may not be satisfying.
However, I also think JRA has a great point regarding upgrading and tweaking an older table. It can be satisfying and rewarding. This of course all depends on whether that's your cup of tea to begin with. For every satisfying moment in analog, there is an equally demoralizing one.
The older tables can be great to learn on. Taking them apart to upgrade and tweak will teach you the ins and outs, and remove any fear or doubt regarding your deck.
I didn't realise that you were having doubts about analog. If this is the case you should buy used. This will minimize any losses should you decide to re-sell.
poppaC..you have a few vintage players....a Realistic and a Technics...what is the sound like? Would you describe them as having audiophile quality sound?
The old vintage VPI table Peabody and I listen to last night was a highend quality table back in the day and will still command big bucks today, so I dont think its a good standard to judge the lesser vintage tables with. So is yours an audiophile quality sound and what the heck is audiophile sound any ways?
frenchmon
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Byron, after tons of love my Pioneer is the best i have. It's not even close to the VPI you listened to. Forget about "audiophile" approval and just start looking at design quality. The better tables are spec'd to the highest tolerances possible. All parts are made to perform flawlessly, allowing the table to spin perfectly, while experiencing no vibration or interference.
Appearance has nothing to do with it. It should be the last consideration. Some of the newer tables employ function BEFORE form. As a result they can be viewed by some as ugly. OIne thing's for sure, they don't sound ugly.
If you want my opinion, combine everything together to find the table that's right for you. Looks and performance in a vintage deck. Your assessments are on par for a VPI table. I think with the right set up, which doesn't have to break your wallet, you will be dropping your CDP at Goodwill. Nothing sounds as good as a mint condition Jazz LP through a tough system, NOTHING!! Trust me, you haven't heard what a tenor sax can sound like through your gear yet...
How about these, keep in mind prices vary depending on the arm, cart and mods. These can be found inside your budget....
Systemdek IIx
http://www.ibiblio.org/tkan/audio/systemdek.jpg
Ariston RD-11s
http://www.zenn.com.sg/RD11s.JPG
Acoustic Research ES-1
http://www.vinylnirvana.com/gallery/ar_es1_01.jpg
Thorens TD-160
http://www.thorens-info.de/Td160_tp16.jpg
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I have a loaner Thorens TD150mk2 with custom plinth right now. It is matched with my modded RB-250 with usual gear. This table is very very good. The motor puts out audible noise, but is not audible thru my speakers. I'm enjoying organic music I used to relish.
The only problem I see is that I'm already scheming to buy this from him, but I have about 2 weeks to play with it so I'll try to stay cool...
If you have access to a pile of clean LP, why not get a TT? Music is music, right?
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I feel like I had to decide whether I was buying audio equipment or furniture. My turntable isn't anything special and it won't win any beauty pageants, but I wouldn't trade it for a Marantz 6300, a Dual CS5000, a Pioneer PL-50 or probably any other of those mid-fi beauty queens. I just don't think it takes much to beat them, for my taste. I'll definitely admit the ones Chubbs posted are nice and are good, but I can't get sound I like out of just anything with wood grain and a sexy S-shaped arm.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Byron, after tons of love my Pioneer is the best i have. It's not even close to the VPI you listened to. Forget about "audiophile" approval and just start looking at design quality. The better tables are spec'd to the highest tolerances possible. All parts are made to perform flawlessly, allowing the table to spin perfectly, while experiencing no vibration or interference.
Appearance has nothing to do with it. It should be the last consideration. Some of the newer tables employ function BEFORE form. As a result they can be viewed by some as ugly. OIne thing's for sure, they don't sound ugly.
If you want my opinion, combine everything together to find the table that's right for you. Looks and performance in a vintage deck. Your assessments are on par for a VPI table. I think with the right set up, which doesn't have to break your wallet, you will be dropping your CDP at Goodwill. Nothing sounds as good as a mint condition Jazz LP through a tough system, NOTHING!! Trust me, you haven't heard what a tenor sax can sound like through your gear yet...
How about these, keep in mind prices vary depending on the arm, cart and mods. These can be found inside your budget....
Systemdek IIx
http://www.ibiblio.org/tkan/audio/systemdek.jpg
Ariston RD-11s
http://www.zenn.com.sg/RD11s.JPG
Acoustic Research ES-1
http://www.vinylnirvana.com/gallery/ar_es1_01.jpg
Thorens TD-160
http://www.thorens-info.de/Td160_tp16.jpg
Wow poppaC...those tables are beautiful with lots of character. Thanks for your help. BTW last night when hanging with Peabody at our friends house...he fired up his vintage VPI deck (which he will be putting on audiogon soon,) and played an old Ray Brown trio LP imported from Japan. Mr Peabody noticed right away how smooth and quiet it was....it was a thing of beauty.
frenchmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhymeammo
I have a loaner Thorens TD150mk2 with custom plinth right now. It is matched with my modded RB-250 with usual gear. This table is very very good. The motor puts out audible noise, but is not audible thru my speakers. I'm enjoying organic music I used to relish.
The only problem I see is that I'm already scheming to buy this from him, but I have about 2 weeks to play with it so I'll try to stay cool...
If you have access to a pile of clean LP, why not get a TT? Music is music, right?
Im really leaning that way...I have to get my dads old blues albums for moms house. The vintage VPI table we listen to last night had a hum you could hear from your sitting position. But once you played music, the hum disappeared....nothing but musical bliss after that.
Can you upload any pictures of that table??? I want to see its character and beauty.
frenchmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02audionoob
I feel like I had to decide whether I was buying audio equipment or furniture. My turntable isn't anything special and it won't win any beauty pageants, but I wouldn't trade it for a Marantz 6300, a Dual CS5000, a Pioneer PL-50 or probably any other of those mid-fi beauty queens. I just don't think it takes much to beat them, for my taste. I'll definitely admit the ones Chubbs posted are nice and are good, but I can't get sound I like out of just anything with wood grain and a sexy S-shaped arm.
Thats my fear noob....while they are sexy I want good sound as well....man I love sound! Why cant you get sound out of one? It cant be the wood because the vintage VPI last night was wood and had great sound. So why not sound from vintage? And what table are you speaking of....the Music Hall? If so that's one of the better looking ones of contemporary tables....IF I had to buy new...that would be it...she not as sexy as vintage, but she got appeal.
frenchmon
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1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Im really leaning that way...I have to get my dads old blues albums for moms house. The vintage VPI table we listen to last night had a hum you could hear from your sitting position. But once you played music, the hum disappeared....nothing but musical bliss after that.
Can you upload any pictures of that table??? I want to see its character and beauty.
frenchmon
Did you state somewhere that VPI was matched with a Grado cart? Grado hums with certain TT so not sure if that was the problem. It could've been grounding or cabling issue.
Do you know which VPI it was?
Here is a pic. I wish I could say it's mine but it's not.
Attachment 6886
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Beauty JRA!
Frenchie you could get a used Music Hall like noob's for under $500. Frankly I think that would be a great way to go. It's a fantastic performer and the type of table you could live with for quite some time. They are also upgrade friendly.
I am currently saving for a TT upgrade. Still not 100% on where I'll end up.
I have worked hard on my Pioneer, like all of my tables. I can say it's dead quiet and spins with incredible stablilty. Combined with the rest of my chain and a sweet LP, it's got a fantastic sound easily equivelant to the entry level Music Halls and Pro-Jects of the world. My non-audio friends "can't believe it's not a CD". But then again, what do they know?!? Lol.
Many people enjoy those tables but my advice to you is spend less or spend more. That price point is an odd one in the new category. As I said earlier, going used for a bit more will net you a much nicer machine.
Don't forget to consider your phono stage and cart in this deal...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhymeammo
Did you state somewhere that VPI was matched with a Grado cart? Grado hums with certain TT so not sure if that was the problem. It could've been grounding or cabling issue.
Do you know which VPI it was?
Here is a pic. I wish I could say it's mine but it's not.
Attachment 6886
Pardon my french..but...DAM! wow! Theres nothing vintage about that table...what year?
Boy that thing is sexy beautiful!
I think MrP may have said it had a Grado cart...if so, then I will pass it on to my friend who has the VPI.
frenchmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Beauty JRA!
Frenchie you could get a used Music Hall like noob's for under $500. Frankly I think that would be a great way to go. It's a fantastic performer and the type of table you could live with for quite some time. They are also upgrade friendly.
I am currently saving for a TT upgrade. Still not 100% on where I'll end up.
I have worked hard on my Pioneer, like all of my tables. I can say it's dead quiet and spins with incredible stablilty. Combined with the rest of my chain and a sweet LP, it's got a fantastic sound easily equivelant to the entry level Music Halls and Pro-Jects of the world. My non-audio friends "can't believe it's not a CD". But then again, what do they know?!? Lol.
Many people enjoy those tables but my advice to you is spend less or spend more. That price point is an odd one in the new category. As I said earlier, going used for a bit more will net you a much nicer machine.
Don't forget to consider your phono stage and cart in this deal...
I just spoke with the gentlemen who has the table for sale and he said its a pioneer PL-10
heres a picture of one like it.
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/3...4126293943.jpg
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He said his is in mint condition...he also has a Rotel amp and some Snell Acoustic speakers....im to meet with him thursday. Do you think its a piece of junk??? He wants $70 bucks...to much??? Personally I think I can do better than that.
poppaC, my friend is a Music Hall dealer...he may be able to get that table a little less than $500. He also thinks I should not wast my time with vintage tables.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Theres nothing vintage about that table...what year?
frenchmon
I believe it's from 1969-1973.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
He said his is in mint condition...he also has a Rotel amp and some Snell Acoustic speakers....im to meet with him thursday. Do you think its a piece of junk??? He wants $70 bucks...to much??? Personally I think I can do better than that.
poppaC, my friend is a Music Hall dealer...he may be able to get that table a little less than $500. He also thinks I should not wast my time with vintage tables.
The PL-10 isn't a piece of junk, but you should move on. If he is including a reasonable cart, $70 wouldn't be the worst price if it's mint.
As far as your buddy's advice, I sort of agree. In your case, with minimal experience and knowledge, it will take alot of work to get a vintage up to snuff. There is dollar value in not having to muck around, and just being able to "plug and play". I think a vintage table could be satisfying, but only if said effort is put in.
On the other hand, don't let him talk you into a 2.2. Check out the Genie I posted in the beginning of this thread. Much better table. They've been making them for years in Europe, wildly popular, and now are available here.
The used MMF 5 and 5.1 go anywhere from $350 - 600. You want a good deal? Buy this right now and be done with it....for life. Check out the cart too. I have heard the G1012 on a Concept and it sounded amazing. Great value...offer him 650 if you're feeling spunky.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....-1-Perfect-w-u
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhymeammo
I believe it's from 1969-1973.
Well I guess im just wrong...it looks more 2000ish. I hope you get it...im sure it sounds as good as it looks. Its not all stock is it? Its got to be a mod.
frenchmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Thats my fear noob....while they are sexy I want good sound as well....man I love sound! Why cant you get sound out of one? It cant be the wood because the vintage VPI last night was wood and had great sound. So why not sound from vintage? And what table are you speaking of....the Music Hall? If so that's one of the better looking ones of contemporary tables....IF I had to buy new...that would be it...she not as sexy as vintage, but she got appeal.
frenchmon
I don't object to the wood. In fact, I like it. It's just not enough to sell me on a turntable. Under the wood veneer is usually MDF, just like under the paint on my MMF-5.
I've owned three Marantz turntables, including the 6300, and it's just not the same sound as the MMF-5. It's debatable which is better. To me, the difference between the common direct-drive turntables and the MMF-5 is like the difference between an electric guitar and an acoustic guitar.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02audionoob
I don't object to the wood. In fact, I like it. It's just not enough to sell me on a turntable. Under the wood veneer is usually MDF, just like under the paint on my MMF-5.
I've owned three Marantz turntables, including the 6300, and it's just not the same sound as the MMF-5. It's debatable which is better. To me, the difference between the common direct-drive turntables and the MMF-5 is like the difference between an electric guitar and an acoustic guitar.
Well I like electric guitar...but I love acoustic guitar. Which one says vintage and which one says contemporary ? BTW noob...thanks for all your insight.
frenchmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Well I like electric guitar...but I love acoustic guitar. Which one says vintage and which one says contemporary ? BTW noob...thanks for all your insight.
frenchmon
You're quite welcome. I'd say you can get both with the old stuff and both with the new stuff. If I went with vintage, I'd probably look at some of the stuff posted here...Thorens, Systemdek, etc. In one limited listen to a Linn LP12 a few months ago I'd say I was very impressed. That's a vintage turntable I'd love to have. They're not cheap, though, and they require some maintenance and expertise.
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Wonderful vintage table by Oracle, masters of analog.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....abl&1278606806
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Noob,jrhymeammo and PoppaC.....Well I was going to buy a used Dual TT of craigslist, but wife talked me into getting a demo Music Hall on clearance at MusicDirect.com. so if I like playing records again, i will upgrade to a better TT...if not then I will sell it
frenchmon..
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actually I was looking at a dual turntable on caigslist when my wife placed a printout of a 2.1 on my lap and said I should order it....I had my reservations at first seeing it had mixed reviews...mostly good ones, but some complained about the cheap needle and the tonearm....but when she offered to paid for it i was willing to take the chance seeing it was discounted on Music direct. So I may be leaning on you and noob to help me to get the best out of it...which may not be much...but maybe enough to see if I want to go this route.
frenchmon
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It will do fine, particularily as a "first" table. I was thinkin more of long term satisfaction when I was speaking against it.
AudioGon has some wonderful stuff right now. That Oracle Alexandria would absolutely destroy the 2.2 and give an MMF 5 a run for it's money.
Check this out, I thought of you right away. This is one of Pioneer's most revered vintage tables, the arm is one of their best. It was on sale for $350, but of course has now sold. Still with the box, minty!! the Oracle is still available, and I am franatically trying to put together an extra 200 bucks to snatch it up.
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.p...abl&1278199649
http://pic8.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1273015566.jpg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
....but when she offered to paid for it...
frenchmon
I have been moved to tears. This is the best love story I have ever read. Take that woman and give her a hug for me, and every other audiophile in the entire world. Mrs. Frenchie, we salute you...
http://www.midwaysailor.com/military/salute.jpg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Have you seen the new Pro-Ject RPM 1.3 Genie? For $499 it would appear to compete beyond it's price. Lots of trickle down technology applied to it. I'm thinking hard about getting one. My local dealer will be getting a couple in soon, I can't wait to hear it.
That's a terrible price for the Genie. It sells here for the equivalent of 280 USD, including tax...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio amateur
That's a terrible price for the Genie. It sells here for the equivalent of 280 USD, including tax...
Should I form a list of all the products that Europeans "pay too much for". The Genie has been succesfully selling in Europe for some time. If you want to understand it's value in N. America, firstly look at it's standing in the Pro-Ject line up. Then, consider all the trickle down technology it contains, and compare it to other tables in it's range. You can step up one price class and see that it can compete with some of those tables.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
I have been moved to tears. This is the best love story I have ever read. Take that woman and give her a hug for me, and every other audiophile in the entire world. Mrs. Frenchie, we salute you...
http://www.midwaysailor.com/military/salute.jpg
LOL...you crack me up.
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I think Ajani talked about the price difference in different places a while back. It has more todo with the region rather teh product it self....if they can get more here than there...the market will show it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
It will do fine, particularily as a "first" table. I was thinkin more of long term satisfaction when I was speaking against it.
AudioGon has some wonderful stuff right now. That Oracle Alexandria would absolutely destroy the 2.2 and give an MMF 5 a run for it's money.
Check this out, I thought of you right away. This is one of Pioneer's most revered vintage tables, the arm is one of their best. It was on sale for $350, but of course has now sold. Still with the box, minty!! the Oracle is still available, and I am franatically trying to put together an extra 200 bucks to snatch it up.
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.p...abl&1278199649
http://pic8.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1273015566.jpg
isnt she lovely...isnt she wonderful!
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Frenchmon, you must be turning on the charm and living right :)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Frenchmon, you must be turning on the charm and living right :)
I dont think she sees it like that...I get fussed out every day around here for no reason...
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When are you expecting the table Frenchie? Have you got the LPs yet? I am excited for you...
There are some great re-issues coming out in 45rpm. Tons of jazz classics. The 45 rpm re-issue is supposed to be the cats meow.
Maybe for Xmas your wife can get you this...http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001LM5TUC/?tag=hashemian-20
...or maybe you can buy it for me.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
When are you expecting the table Frenchie? Have you got the LPs yet? I am excited for you...
There are some great re-issues coming out in 45rpm. Tons of jazz classics. The 45 rpm re-issue is supposed to be the cats meow.
Maybe for Xmas your wife can get you this... http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001LM5TUC/?tag=hashemian-20
...or maybe you can buy it for me.
I have Giant steps on CD. I can send you a copy if you tell me how. Drop me a PM...The table is to be in today...I will go and get the albums next week...mom lives a little distance from me.
How do I go about chosing a cart? Is it by the tracing force? whats the difference between MM and MC carts? Where can I go online to educate my self?
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Another question for you vinyl junkies...I have built in phone on my preamp...but would I be better served with an external phone stage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Another question for you vinyl junkies...I have built in phone on my preamp...but would I be better served with an external phone stage
http://www.rotel.com/content/manuals/rc1090_multi.pdf
According to the manual on page 8, it seems your preamp is capable of all types of cartridge, including low output moving coil. But if you go with LOMC, noise may become an issue, and LOMC cartridges tend to be expensive.
Does your TT come with the Tracker cartridge?
I would stick to your internal phonostage for now, and save up for a good external unit down the road. There are tons of sub $200 external units, but I would want to make sure it's an upgrade and not a lateral move. If TT comes premounted, then forgot about upgrade, just enjoy music for now, my friend. We'll be here when you need to upgrade after you had time to break'er in.
Peace
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