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Initial Impressions of Music Hall MMF 5.1
Picked up my new 5.1 turntable on Saturday. Stephen at "Quest For Sound" had everything waiting for me when I got there. Went in and looked at some other setups. First up was a VPI Classic, then a Acoustic Signature "Manfred". Then a couple tube mono blocks, and finally a pair of the new Usher BE 718 DMD speakers. Wanted to hear the diamond tweeters. I had left my glasses in the car, so I wasn't getting model numbers. This was mainly for Stephen's benefit. It's really nice to have all of this top notch gear, but it's best when you can show it off. Now to the business at hand.
While he's writing up the sale, I am thumbing through his LPs and I figure a nice new record for the nice new table would be only fitting. Spotting a copy of Traffic's " John Barleycorn, I add that to the till. Table and vinyl in hand, we exchange our goodbyes and I'm off.
http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/...m/DSC00222.JPG
Setup is pretty basic and very similar to my MMF 2.1, so things go smoothly. I'm pretty methodical and have a tendency to read everything twice. About an hour and a half later, I'm ready to spin vinyl. Load the afore mentioned Traffic LP on the platter, spin the record clamp down ( new experience for me ) and turn the motor on. Let it run for a couple minutes while I check the manual again, oh it's fun being anal. Here we go.
Nice detail in the saxaphone and flute work is the first thing that I notice. Since this is a new LP, I can't compare it to the 2.1 table. But I do have this on CD and there is a marked difference. The vinyl sort of pulls you into the music and you become one with the sound.
http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/...m/DSC00212.JPG
Then I put on my copy of Dvorak's "Carnival Overture" and "Othello Overture". I pull out my Sennheiser HD-600 headphones for this. The table and Goldring 1012 GX cartridge perform their magic again. I'm hearing violins that I never heard before. They must be on the CD, I just missed them. I hope. Next up is my superb copy of Steely Dan's "Aja". The saxaphone solo on the title track just blew me away. Now I'm hearing the background vocals clearly. Now remember all my vinyl is pristine. Most of it has maybe one or two playings on it, this could be some of the reason for the sound. But if this is what I can expect from my future listening sessions, my vinyl is going to get some more rotations.
Sorry I can't be more technical, but I don't have the background that some of you guys have and therfore the discription tends to be on the simple side. Enjoy your vinyl.
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Analog fever is blooming here at AR.com!!!!!!!! I love it.
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Need a little help
Hey guys, as you can see I've been trying to put some pictures of my new table in with no luck. I loaded them in the photo gallery, but I can't seem to get them into my post. A little help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington
Hey guys, as you can see I've been trying to put some pictures of my new table in with no luck. I loaded them in the photo gallery, but I can't seem to get them into my post. A little help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jack
I took a couple of liberties Jack, hope it's to your liking. Great write up BTW, definitely needed some pics.
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Yes Jack, again, great write up man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Sorry I can't be more technical, but I don't have the background that some of you guys have and therfore the discription tends to be on the simple side.
You kidding?!? Please don't apologize. I get so bored of the same old descriptives, they become expected. Blah, blah, blah soundstage blah dynamics blah etc etc etc...
Hey, I'm guilty of it too. It's nice to get a fresh perspective. When you talk in terms of music, I can understand. I have a really nice original copy of Aja. It really is a gem. Is yours remastered?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
The table and Goldring 1012 GX cartridge perform their magic again. I'm hearing violins that I never heard before. They must be on the CD, I just missed them. I hope.
I heard your combo recently when I paid a visit to a member of Audio Karma to pick up some tubes. Aside from that, I keep bumping into the 1012 everywhere I go (not literally of course, or then I would have NOWHERE to go). It really is a great cartridge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
The saxaphone solo on the title track just blew me away.
I'm a horn man myself, so I know what you mean. I personally can't get enough trumpet. You might laugh, but one of the finest pressings of a sax solo that I have is on INXS' Kick LP. The song "Never Tear Us Apart" has, IMO, one of the most effective sax solos going. Short but sweet. I listen to alot of funk, soul and jazz...all horns, all the time baby.
frenchmon is discovering the beauty of brass/horns on analog. It's one of my favorite things about LPs, and probably what keeps me interested the most.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Went in and looked at some other setups. First up was a VPI Classic, then a Acoustic Signature "Manfred". Then a couple tube mono blocks, and finally a pair of the new Usher BE 718 DMD speakers. Wanted to hear the diamond tweeters. I had left my glasses in the car, so I wasn't getting model numbers. This was mainly for Stephen's benefit. It's really nice to have all of this top notch gear, but it's best when you can show it off
Lately I read something that blew my mind. It was a post regarding upgrading and the like. Anyhow, this poster wrote that the best way to enjoy your gear, is to NOT listen to anything better. Well, this really rang true for me, maybe for you to huh Jack? Somedays I think I have all I need, then I visit my local shop and I'm planning another upgrade. Tough bug to fight off.
BTW, the words of wisdom came from our very own 02audionoob. The Socrates of audio. It's fun to check out the good stuff, as long as perspective can be maintained. VPI make tables worth killing for. Now that noob has a P5, it's a distinct possibility that his MF5 could end up in my listening room. After reading your review, I like the idea more and more.
Anyhow Jack I'm always envious of someone having a good time. Enjoy!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
You kidding?!? Please don't apologize. I get so bored of the same old descriptives, they become expected. Blah, blah, blah soundstage blah dynamics blah etc etc etc...
I agree on Jack's honest write up as well as how people(Pro and Amateurs) rave every single gear they get their hands on. Or maybe I'm just a cynical bastard.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington
Hey guys, as you can see I've been trying to put some pictures of my new table in with no luck. I loaded them in the photo gallery, but I can't seem to get them into my post. A little help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jack
There are 2 ways to take care of this.
You must hit "Reply Post" instead of "Quick Reply" then insert an attachment by clicking on a paper clip tab next to that white smiley face. This should automatically add the pic to your Personal Gallery.
Or what I do is load a pic to my Phono Gallery then Right click the picture=>View Image=>Copy the link of the picture=>Quick Reply to the discussion thread=>Insert the link of the pic.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington
Picked up my new 5.1 turntable on Saturday. Stephen at "Quest For Sound" had everything waiting for me when I got there. Went in and looked at some other setups. First up was a VPI Classic, then a Acoustic Signature "Manfred". Then a couple tube mono blocks, and finally a pair of the new Usher BE 718 DMD speakers. Wanted to hear the diamond tweeters. I had left my glasses in the car, so I wasn't getting model numbers. This was mainly for Stephen's benefit. It's really nice to have all of this top notch gear, but it's best when you can show it off. Now to the business at hand.
While he's writing up the sale, I am thumbing through his LPs and I figure a nice new record for the nice new table would be only fitting. Spotting a copy of Traffic's " John Barleycorn, I add that to the till. Table and vinyl in hand, we exchange our goodbyes and I'm off.
http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/...m/DSC00222.JPG
Setup is pretty basic and very similar to my MMF 2.1, so things go smoothly. I'm pretty methodical and have a tendency to read everything twice. About an hour and a half later, I'm ready to spin vinyl. Load the afore mentioned Traffic LP on the platter, spin the record clamp down ( new experience for me ) and turn the motor on. Let it run for a couple minutes while I check the manual again, oh it's fun being anal. Here we go.
Nice detail in the saxaphone and flute work is the first thing that I notice. Since this is a new LP, I can't compare it to the 2.1 table. But I do have this on CD and there is a marked difference. The vinyl sort of pulls you into the music and you become one with the sound.
http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/...m/DSC00212.JPG
Then I put on my copy of Dvorak's "Carnival Overture" and "Othello Overture". I pull out my Sennheiser HD-600 headphones for this. The table and Goldring 1012 GX cartridge perform their magic again. I'm hearing violins that I never heard before. They must be on the CD, I just missed them. I hope. Next up is my superb copy of Steely Dan's "Aja". The saxaphone solo on the title track just blew me away. Now I'm hearing the background vocals clearly. Now remember all my vinyl is pristine. Most of it has maybe one or two playings on it, this could be some of the reason for the sound. But if this is what I can expect from my future listening sessions, my vinyl is going to get some more rotations.
Sorry I can't be more technical, but I don't have the background that some of you guys have and therfore the discription tends to be on the simple side. Enjoy your vinyl.
Nice table Jack and congrats....at this time...im thinking about a future purchase of the MMF5.1's cousin...the Pro-Ject 1 Xpression III if I dont grab a nice vintage table like a VPI or Thorens, or something like that.
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Jack...btw, what is your table sitting on? Looks like its doing a balancing act....lol.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
I took a couple of liberties Jack, hope it's to your liking. Great write up BTW, definitely needed some pics.
Great job Poppa. That was exactly what I was trying to do myself. Thanks so much.
BTW my copy of Aja is the Limited Edition 180 gram from Cisco Music. Got it from Acoustic Sounds.
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What a great thread! I wish there was some sort of automatic alert coming my way when there's a new thread in the Analog Room. Very nice new turntable, Jack...and nice review thoughts. I was going to compliment your nicely organized photos in the OP, too...until I saw Chubbs did it. :D
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Hey Jack,
Are you using Onkyo's internal phono stage?
Since you got a great TT, I think you will be floored by how LP can sound with an external phono preamp.
Don't you hate it when someone suggests you to spend cash after you've made a major purchase? :devil:
Enjoy your new toy and tons of records to come.
JRA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington
Now remember all my vinyl is pristine. Most of it has maybe one or two playings on it, this could be some of the reason for the sound.
I cannot back up my statement with any proof, but it is my non-scientific belief that LP needs to be played few times before it can sold its best.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhymeammo
Hey Jack,
Are you using Onkyo's internal phono stage?
Since you got a great TT, I think you will be floored by how LP can sound with an external phono preamp.
Don't you hate it when someone suggests you to spend cash after you've made a major purchase? :devil:
Enjoy your new toy and tons of records to come.
JRA
I am using the Onkyo's as my phono stage. Any thought on a good place to start with a phono pre? I had been looking at different ones and the Pro-ject Tube Box II caught my eye.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02audionoob
What a great thread! I wish there was some sort of automatic alert coming my way when there's a new thread in the Analog Room. Very nice new turntable, Jack...and nice review thoughts. I was going to compliment your nicely organized photos in the OP, too...until I saw Chubbs did it. :D
Thanks Noob, I'm still trying to get this photo thing right. I don't know if it's my computer that won't let me copy the photos to my post. Right now I have red squares covering all the options where the attachments icon is and all the other ones. So I've pushed something that shouldn't be pushed.
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If your budget is less than $1K then the best option is to go used, but that's just my opinion. What's your budget?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhymeammo
If your budget is less than $1K then the best option is to go used, but that's just my opinion. What's your budget?
Probably up to around $400. Since I just put out about $650 on the table.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington
Thanks Noob, I'm still trying to get this photo thing right. I don't know if it's my computer that won't let me copy the photos to my post. Right now I have red squares covering all the options where the attachments icon is and all the other ones. So I've pushed something that shouldn't be pushed.
What some of us are doing for photos is posting them to Flickr.com. We then paste the address to the photo like this... http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2775/...a1095df2_m.jpg .... between a [img] and a [/img].
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02audionoob
What it's saying is that the size of the file that contains my picture is too large for the forums format. The picture in 955.9 KB and the limit is 244.1 KB. Not sure how to fix that. I'll try the flicker. com approach
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington
Probably up to around $400. Since I just put out about $650 on the table.
Thats a very good price Jack....I've seen it about $875 new.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington
I am using the Onkyo's as my phono stage. Any thought on a good place to start with a phono pre? I had been looking at different ones and the Pro-ject Tube Box II caught my eye.
I've heard great things about the Tube box as well as the Jolida JD 9A . Check it out.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington
What it's saying is that the size of the file that contains my picture is too large for the forums format. The picture in 955.9 KB and the limit is 244.1 KB. Not sure how to fix that. I'll try the flicker. com approach
I often use Microsoft Office Picture Manager to resize pictures to 640 x 480 before attaching them to a forum. That makes the picture fit comfortably in the width of the thread and the file size is reduced to well within the limit. If you post a picture to Flickr, it will create multiple sizes and you can choose whichever size you want. The large size can stretch out the these threads, so I choose the medium size.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
I've heard great things about the Tube box as well as the Jolida JD 9A . Check it out.
I used to have the original model Pro-Ject Tube Box, which became the Tube Box SE and then the Tube Box SE II. I got it for a little under $300 on eBay and sold it for a little over than on Audiogon. They're still floating around for that same money. They're very good...well worth the $300 to $350 they go for and I think generally regarded as better than the current model Tube Box II.
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It might blow the budget but what about just getting a stereo preamp with the phono built in? I don't know about containing phono stage but some of the older CJ preamps can be found on Audiogon for $400 or $500.00. Of course, that would lead to the HT integration thing. I'm not sure what year CJ began to add the HT bypass but I'm sure it was never thought of back when the PV10 was built.
It might be worth the extra expense and effort though to run the MM-5 into a better overall preamp as well as phono stage. For now though, glad you are enjoying your new addition.
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Jack I did an extensive audition of the Tube Box II SE at my local shop. It's a killer stage, VERY resolute yet neutral. If anything is out of wack, the Tube Box will amplify it. But if everything is just right, you'll get a real smooth and open sound.
Furthermore, I had to pass on it because the table I wanted it for was a Technics SL-Q2. Essentially the table wasn't good enough, and it exposed every audible weakness.
I would say if your table is properly set up, the Tube Box would be a great match. As far as cart matching, that's another story.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Peabody
It might blow the budget but what about just getting a stereo preamp with the phono built in?
We just discussed this in another thread. I forget which one. You're right Peabody, for a bit more cash, there are some great preamps out there. The ARC SP9 comes to mind, very versatile for roughly $800.
I think the best idea would be to convert a used tube pre into a dedicated phono stage. This is what we discussed with frenchmon in that other thread. However, this is where a unit like the Tube Box starts to become a value. If you can't best the cost of the Tube Box, then you better be darn sure it's worth it in terms of fidelity.
For your budget Jack, you would probably just come in under. The idea is to grab a vintage American tube pre, and use it as a dedicated phono stage. This is done by using the Tape Out and bypassing all line stages and controls (essentially noise). Obviously the further your money can go to refurbing a stock unit, the better. Coupling caps and resistors should be replaced. There is also a great mod for the RIAA circuit.
Dynaco, EICO, Scott, Fisher, Sherwood are all good names. Problem is many people are discovering these brands, so the cat is out of the bag. Prices have gone up significfantly in the last few years.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Jack I did an extensive audition of the Tube Box II SE at my local shop. It's a killer stage, VERY resolute yet neutral. If anything is out of wack, the Tube Box will amplify it. But if everything is just right, you'll get a real smooth and open sound.
Furthermore, I had to pass on it because the table I wanted it for was a Technics SL-Q2. Essentially the table wasn't good enough, and it exposed every audible weakness.
I would say if your table is properly set up, the Tube Box would be a great match. As far as cart matching, that's another story.
Im sorta running into that with my MMF 2.1
My preamp and speakers are really showing me the flaws in my budget table. It really does not have good detail at lower volume listening until I turn it up... and when the music stops I can hear the rumble. And while listening at louder volume levels, I keep wanting more out of it. But all in all, I really like it...I just know that its not on the same level as the rest of my gear. But for a entry level deck it performs well. I only wished it had the fidelity of the Marantz TT-15S1 Reference Series Turntable Peabody and I listen to Wednesday night...that thing rocked.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
I only wished it had the fidelity of the Marantz TT-15S1 Reference Series Turntable Peabody and I listen to Wednesday night...that thing rocked.
Those are made by Clearaudio frenchie. Rebadged Emotion I believe.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Those are made by Clearaudio frenchie. Rebadged Emotion I believe.
Yes, I know...I wouldn't mind having one of those Marantz tables though....but yes, its Clearaudio all the way...even down to the cart. Have you had a chance to listen to one? The one we listen to was pared with a Very expensive Macintosh preamp and very expensive Classe mono amps. And the Klipsch speaker system that retails for $20,000 a pair. The Podiums.
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I think the TT15-S1 is a little more than a straight-ahead Emotion. There's somthing a little upgraded about it...don't remember what. One of the guys at AK said he lucked into one for something like $350. Amazing stroke of luck. I once had a dealer offer me a price of $850 for one and I passed, after thinking long and hard about it. I thought it might be interesting to have the new Marantz turntable sitting on my old Marantz receiver.
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I think if you were to spend less than $400, then I wouldn’t go for Tube Box II, or anything below $200.<o></o>
Tube Box II is basically Project’s Phono Box II with added tube circuit.<o></o>
Not to say Phono Box II is a bad unit, but I think your system deserves something a little better like a used Tube Box SE (bigger unit).<o></o>
<o></o>
As Noob suggested, PJ Tube Box (original) is a good unit. <o></o>
I would need to hear it again in my system to really say but I, too, had owned one and never thought it sounded neutral by any means.<o></o>
But the best thing about the unit is that it offers soulful midrange that keep you up at night.<o></o>
It’s not a High End Audiophile piece of unit, just a damn good unit.<o></o><o></o>
BUT, for another $300 or so, you can find a used Audio Research PH3.<o></o>
The AR is far above PJ Tube box. It is well built, neutral with a touch of warm, plenty of gain and overall margin to satisfy 95% of MM and even low output cartridges.<o></o>
If I was in your position, I would save until this winter and get a used AR PH-3. Who knows maybe you can stretch to the PH-3SE.
<o>
</o>
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02audionoob
I think the TT15-S1 is a little more than a straight-ahead Emotion. There's somthing a little upgraded about it...don't remember what. One of the guys at AK said he lucked into one for something like $350. Amazing stroke of luck. I once had a dealer offer me a price of $850 for one and I passed, after thinking long and hard about it. I thought it might be interesting to have the new Marantz turntable sitting on my old Marantz receiver.
Man for the price of $850 you should have grabbed it. The way it sounded last Wendsday night it was just graceful. When its time for me to get a new table, if I find one at that price, imma jump all over it. Not only does it sound very good, its pretty.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Man for the price of $850 you should have grabbed it. The way it sounded last Wendsday night it was just graceful. When its time for me to get a new table, if I find one at that price, imma jump all over it. Not only does it sound very good, its pretty.
I know...that dealer must have thought I was nuts to pass that up.
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1 Attachment(s)
Attachment 7009
Hey Frenchie, I'm sorry I never answered your question. It's sitting on the top shelf of my equipment rack, which has glass shelves. You may not be able to tell that in the picture.
I like the look of the Jolida. Saw one on Audiogon but it was brand new and full price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Jack...btw, what is your table sitting on? Looks like its doing a balancing act....lol.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02audionoob
I know...that dealer must have thought I was nuts to pass that up.
noob. I think you have Audio Research gear? last night I listened for about 5 hours to a system that had a tube Audio Research preamp ...I think he said it was a LS 14 or 16. He also has another one that he was not using...a PS. I forget the number. The LS was connected to a Macintosh tube amp 225. He had some diy speakers with Vifa woofers and Morel tweeters and Diy cables and interconnect...it was just mind blowing. He did the tube rolling to get the sound he wanted....his system was not overly warm at all. Most Mac gear I have heard was just to warm. My buddy said its just a matter of tube rolling. I was totally blown away by his system.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington
Attachment 7009
Hey Frenchie, I'm sorry I never answered your question. It's sitting on the top shelf of my equipment rack, which has glass shelves. You may not be able to tell that in the picture.
I like the look of the Jolida. Saw one on Audiogon but it was brand new and full price.
Oh...yeah in the picture it look like it was sorta just floating. Yeah the Jolida is nice. You also have a nice system....once again congrats on the new table and you got a very good price. I don't know if my dealer can give me a price like that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
noob. I think you have Audio Research gear? last night I listened for about 5 hours to a system that had a tube Audio Research preamp ...I think he said it was a LS 14 or 16. He also has another one that he was not using...a PS. I forget the number. The LS was connected to a Macintosh tube amp 225. He had some diy speakers with Vifa woofers and Morel tweeters and Diy cables and interconnect...it was just mind blowing. He did the tube rolling to get the sound he wanted....his system was not overly warm at all. Most Mac gear I have heard was just to warm. My buddy said its just a matter of tube rolling. I was totally blown away by his system.
Awesome right? My "dream" pre is an ARC SP9, EStat and JoeESP9 both own one. They are discontinued and only available new.
I've heard a couple of pretty awesome DIY tube set ups myself. You'll rarely meet an eccentric tube type who doesn't make their own speakers.
Sure, as a rule tubes are warmer, but I don't think it's the bowl of mush that alot of people would like to think it is. I have my main rig right across from a respectable SS set up for my computer.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Oh...yeah in the picture it look like it was sorta just floating. Yeah the Jolida is nice. You also have a nice system....once again congrats on the new table and you got a very good price. I don't know if my dealer can give me a price like that.
It's taken years and trial and error to get this far. I started 10 years ago, and every piece of gear that I originally bought has been replaced. This is like my fifth turntable. Now I'm sort of fine tuning with the phono amp and other cartridges.
Oh and don't forget that what I paid for the 5.1 was because I had the 2.1 as a trade in.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Awesome right? My "dream" pre is an ARC SP9, EStat and JoeESP9 both own one. They are discontinued and only available new.
I've heard a couple of pretty awesome DIY tube set ups myself. You'll rarely meet an eccentric tube type who doesn't make their own speakers.
Sure, as a rule tubes are warmer, but I don't think it's the bowl of mush that alot of people would like to think it is. I have my main rig right across from a respectable SS set up for my computer.
PoppaC, Some tubes are warmer, but all tubes are not boring and laid back. The new tubes he replaced his old ones with gave a lot more life to his system. I've never heard tubes sound mildly warm with good highs like this. It just pulled your entire attention into what the music was speaking. a good Mac amp with a good Audio research preamp....priceless! The stand mount speakers where about 17 inches tall 10 inches wide and 12 inches deep and made of solid light oak sides that he cut himself. He had Vifa mid woofers and Morel tweeters, and made the crossovers himself. He made all his cables and interconnects himself. The speaker wires where made of a bunch of very thin gauge wire....something like 26 gauge but it was all braided up to make a single cable. The system was and sounded totally awesome.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington
It's taken years and trial and error to get this far. I started 10 years ago, and every piece of gear that I originally bought has been replaced. This is like my fifth turntable. Now I'm sort of fine tuning with the phono amp and other cartridges.
Oh and don't forget that what I paid for the 5.1 was because I had the 2.1 as a trade in.
What phono amp did you get?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
What phono amp did you get?
Going to look at the Pro-Jects this afternoon. I can't believe all the phono amps out there.
Lots to look at for sure.
Sounds like this guy you went to visit is really talented. I would never think of building my own speakers.
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