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  1. #26
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daviethek View Post
    Maybe one of the reasons why people like direct drive is because they have heard entry level belt drive tables and just prefer not to deal with speed variations. I have a 2.2 and the motor speed is noticeably off. I tried implementing a speed box and it didn't like it. I heard the same motor is in the 5.1, which leads me toward getting the 7 or 7.1 in the MH line as a logical starting point for properly rated motors of acceptable design.

    There should be no variations in speed large enough to be noticeable in modern tables costing 500.00. The fact that a stereophile reviewer noticed better sound when implementing a speed box on a cheap table may lead some people to buy speed boxes. It has led me to take my table out of service. Shame on them. I am thinking decent direct drive for a table under 1K

    I have a demo unit from Music-direct, a Music Hall 2.1 like new, and it never had speed problems. Proper set up, leveled , and it was great....I ran it for a year almost every day, and never had a problem out of it.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  2. #27
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    What exactly does age have to do with anything - a 20 year old Voyd Reference 3a is still considered one of the handful best decks built and yes better than anything I have heard from Clearaudio, rega and ProJect. - And it's one reason you will pay many times the original price for a Voyd on the used market.

    The SystemDek tables have had pretty significant changes made to it by Audio Note - a new motor, platter, wiring etc. A used Systemdek at least has these upgrade option available to it. Many older decks from Thorens for example - do not.

    It comes down to design - a suspended platter design is different than non suspended platter designs - and done right it's tough going to the non suspended types. The TT1 is the best table I have heard in the price range - around $1700 with arm and cartridge. It is easily better than the Clearaudio Emotion the dealer had set-up. Buying used has some issues - the condition of the thing for a start. And the systemdek isn't as good but it will be in the ballpark and will only run $300-$400.

    I think it's important to judge it after you've actually heard it. The TT1 is better than it looks. Looks is a difficult thing to pass up I suppose.

    Ok...thats fine RGA, I thought you where of that crowd of people who are always talking about go and get an old Technics off Craigslist or from the GW put a good needle on it, and it will sound just as good if not better than these modern record players. I tried that with an old Technics, and with the same needle's my MH 2.1 ate the Technics for lunch.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  3. #28
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Guess I will chime in...

    Raven I think you should expand your research and look hard at the used market. That P25 you mentioned is a great example of what can be had for significantly less cash. I will put in another vote for the "old" suspended decks, they are hard to beat for fidelity and can be had for a song. Generally, some obsessive audiophile has already outfitted the deck with a proper arm/cart which also helps your cause. Aside from this, keep an eye out for the old Oracle Alexandria and/or Paris. These decks can mop up the floor with certain newer offerings, and at a price of course.

    I have a couple shops in town and have sat in front of all the usual suspects. BTW, the Project with the S arm is a huge dissapointment sound wise. I was really excited to hear it as it's design is clearly stellar, but the sound was so bland and unengaging. I would suggest a few more bucks for an Xpression.

    You must understand that companies like Rega and Linn have long been about sound and tend to defy "logic" when it comes to build. In short, they must be heard to be understood.

    The other thing I would say is that the GCPH is a wildly awesome phono stage. I think a guy like you should consider the offerings from Bottlehead. I have heard the Project stages and while good, there is much competition to be heard in each price range.

    I hope this helps, taking the time to really research will hopefully help to save you some cash and land you the front end you are looking for.

  4. #29
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    I've permanently pulled my TT and whole phono set up out of my system. I haven't listened to a single LP in couple of years, maybe longer.

    I don't begrude other people their enjoyment, but the whole vinyl thing is superfluous if great, realistic sound is what you want. Personally I'm entirely digital and slightly tending to multi-channel where good recordings are available.

  5. #30
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    I've permanently pulled my TT and whole phono set up out of my system. I haven't listened to a single LP in couple of years, maybe longer.

    I don't begrude other people their enjoyment, but the whole vinyl thing is superfluous if great, realistic sound is what you want. Personally I'm entirely digital and slightly tending to multi-channel where good recordings are available.

    ...said the classical fan.

  6. #31
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    I've permanently pulled my TT and whole phono set up out of my system. I haven't listened to a single LP in couple of years, maybe longer.

    I don't begrude other people their enjoyment, but the whole vinyl thing is superfluous if great, realistic sound is what you want. Personally I'm entirely digital and slightly tending to multi-channel where good recordings are available.
    This thread is about you?

  7. #32
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    "it takes a largish outlay of cash to really do vinyl justice"

    NOT so. a modest outlay will reveal the superiority of LP over RBCD! a thousand or less will truly humble cd. audiogon is crawling with fine values and likewise the audioasylum.com's classifieds. add to that the economy of buying used LPs and cost becomes a major attraction along with the inherent verisimilitude of vinyl playback.

    the low end of the clearaudio line seems like bargain territory to me but a used table of the DD type or belt drive will do for starters and will contain enough of the real deal to addict one to vinyl. once you have the taste, you will know where the budget will take you. upgrades can be incremental financially and yet a big step sonically.

    i dont think we should discourage beginners by putting a financial wall in their way.

    direct drive isnt the panacea some think in terms of speed stability. and most dont have great isolation from vibration but then thats something we learn to deal with. really great DDs tend to be expensive such as the goldmund. i have both belt and dd tables and each have their advantages.
    ...regards...tr

  8. #33
    RGA
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    hifitommy

    You may be correct but I will have to disagree based on my personal experience - of course different tables may elicit different results.

    Skeptical of vinyl - having grown up on CD - I listened to the "a modest turntable will kill all CD replay" argument. So I bought a fixed up Dual (one of the better regarded models) and and audio technica cartridge - the sound was terrible.

    So I elected to go with the famous Rega P2 (NAD 533) with stock cartridge - the sound was terrible. Replaced the cart with the famous budget M97xE Shure cartridge. The sound dramatically improved to the point that occasionally I would hear glimpses of the vinyl is better than CD offering. Sometimes it was so but sometimes it wasn't. And this only against a modest Cambridge Audio CD 6. I tried several turntables in the $1k - $2k range from Clearuadio, Rega, Roksan, Technics, Pro-Ject, Linn, Audio Note, and Oracle. Only the Linn and Audio Note were major steps up over the likes of the NAD/Rega 2 I suspect due to the nature of the suspended subchassis and the generally superior cartridges. But neither is exactly budget. The AN TT1 coming in at about $1100US without cartridge. And this is only this cheap because the dealer bought the entire world stock of silver plinths that doesn't look too attractive.

    Granted my reference of CD replay is Audio Note digital which is designed 100% by analog guys and it's a cut above (well above) everyone else) fanboy or not - vinyl people all say the same thing. Guy Adams of Voyd and Michael Kerster of Parts Express (previously of Sonic Frontoiers) helped design it.

    Having said that - in general it takes considerably more money for AN digital to beat a good turntable - and even the AN fanboys admit that a decked out TT2 with their MC carts and step ups will beat a 10 times the price Dac 5.

    I do agree with your opinion I simply don't agree with you on where the starting line is - to me the point of entry is something like a TT1 IQ3 and Arm 2 - and that will run around $1600 - $2,000. It's not done with the stuff like the Clearaudio Emotion or Roksan Radius 5 or Rega P3s of the world IMO. Although yes I would agree that they will take down a number of filtered over and upsampling CD players.

  9. #34
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    we will have to agree to disagree. the essence of music is on vinyl which conveys a satisfaction and relaxation factor not available in cd and at much lower outlay for hardware and software.

    thats not to say that all vinyl sounds better than all cd.
    ...regards...tr

  10. #35
    RGA
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    Hifitommy

    It may also be a factor of what you listen to - 60s jazz on LP simply walks all over any CD from that era - some walk all over most every recording I have period. And it may be due to the different mics used and the very sloppy digital transfers to CD. Those early CDs and CD players were truly atrocious - I don't think a lot of those guys who passed judgment back then have bothered to go back and give newer players a try.

    There is much more of a difference between upscale turntables and entry level turntables. A $5k turntable rig is vastly vastly better than a $1k model - that isn't nearly as true with CD players. It's also a reason I still have my Cambridge Audio CD 6. Because while it is outclassed by a few CD players it isn't outclassed enough to part with the coin to really bother. The CD 2.1 outclasses it in terms of sound but not ergonomics (and I left the country).

    I guess I was just not thrilled with the budget tables I have heard - the first thing one wants to do is start "fiddling" with them and upgrading them and replacing plinths or arm bearings or adding mats. If it truly sounded good then that desire would not likely be there to the degree that there is an entire industry around trying to make a stock P2/P3 sound good. It would have made more sense to start with a much better turntable where that isn't necessary.

    People will drop $1500 on air conditioning on a car for 6 weeks of heat without a second look but $1500 on a turntable that will give you 30 years of enjoyment - no - we need to be cheap and buy the $700 model that we need to put $800 more into to get to sound 60% as good as the $1500 table.

    I think I erred by saying you can't do it on the cheap. You can if you go used. Fortunately turntables have very high depreciation so it is possible to get a very good suspended Thorens or Systemdek for cheap - pay a couple hundred and get it fixed up and then you have something that will kick the snot out of CD - but these tables were not cheap in their day - they were award winners and upper scale brands and models - Rega P2s of the world simply don't compete.

    I think someone like yourself could get it to work on the cheap but newbies in their 30s and under who grew up on CD will have no idea what to look for - so they will pay more money for a P2 (as I did) and very possibly be underwhelmed. When for the same $500 I could have went the used route and got a $1500 level or more sounding deck.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    What exactly does age have to do with anything - a 20 year old Voyd Reference 3a is still considered one of the handful best decks built and yes better than anything I have heard from Clearaudio, rega and ProJect. - And it's one reason you will pay many times the original price for a Voyd on the used market.

    The SystemDek tables have had pretty significant changes made to it by Audio Note - a new motor, platter, wiring etc. A used Systemdek at least has these upgrade option available to it. Many older decks from Thorens for example - do not.

    It comes down to design - a suspended platter design is different than non suspended platter designs - and done right it's tough going to the non suspended types. The TT1 is the best table I have heard in the price range - around $1700 with arm and cartridge. It is easily better than the Clearaudio Emotion the dealer had set-up. Buying used has some issues - the condition of the thing for a start. And the systemdek isn't as good but it will be in the ballpark and will only run $300-$400.

    I think it's important to judge it after you've actually heard it. The TT1 is better than it looks. Looks is a difficult thing to pass up I suppose.
    I have both types of TTs and VASTLY prefer non suspended TTs: better timbre and bass. Most suspended TTs sound lightweight IMO. The Lynn is particularly overrated.

  12. #37
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    thats ODD. i was first attracted to the SOTA sapphire because its bass semmed to go to the center of the earth. on my friend's system with IMF monitor IIIs improved (flat to 16Hz), it was obvious that it does.

    so much for your theory.
    ...regards...tr

  13. #38
    You play. I listen. Enochrome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppachubby View Post
    ...said the classical fan.
    I agree with Poppa, I do have a fondness for suspended decks. Suspended decks bring out the bass and provide a full tonal balance, as much as this novice can tell.

    As far as older suspended decks, most people always speak of two in high regard: the Linn LP 12 and the Thorens TD-125mk2.

    I am in the process of rebuilding a TD-125 and from my experience unless you can find one locally in excellent condition I would pass on it. Their are too many things that can wrong with them, from the electronics, the motor and down to the bearing. These are all common problems that unless you fix tables for a living, they are a P.I.A.

    I would look for a good Rega P3, Music Hall MMF 5 or a believe it or not SL-1200; all of them are solid performers and relatively bullet proof ( except for the RB300 wiring it is absolute crap)

    Sh*t I have a Pioneer PL-112 that is solid. It is suspended, holds speed like its military and the tonearm isn't special but its dependable and the counter weight, and arm tube is solidly built. Especially, the counterweight: it is very precise, even more so than the generic Rega's and my Jelco (although overall performance those two trump the Pioneer). I spent $35 on it as an emergency deck and I could not be more happy.

    I would by whatever has the best build quality to put it simply.

  14. #39
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    the sota sapphire is suspended and i love it. likewise the vpi hw19III i had. if one is experiencing a lack of deep bass with a suspended tt, i suggest that its a fault of that design or setup.
    ...regards...tr

  15. #40
    You play. I listen. Enochrome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hifitommy View Post
    the sota sapphire is suspended and i love it. likewise the vpi hw19III i had. if one is experiencing a lack of deep bass with a suspended tt, i suggest that its a fault of that design or setup.

    Ditto

  16. #41
    RGA
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    I can't speak to the LINN fully since I never had it for long enough. Some Linn set-ups are not all the good. Suspended tables take more work to set up correctly and reading Scott Faller many suspended decks are not very well designed Joe Audiophile Turntables And Bandwidth Article By Scott Faller

    Linn may be "overrated" as this Linn LP 12 owner trade his in for a AN TT2 at significantly less money - he's not the only one so TubeFan may have a point - but I liked what I heard over the likes of oracle and Clearaudio the store also sold (but over time I may have drawn a different conclusion). Vinyl Asylum: REVIEW: Audio Note AN-TT Two Turntables by MikeRanfft

    Perhaps just need to hear a very good one. http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/...s/HFC10_AN.pdf though you may need a step up transformer for your home.

  17. #42
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    Linn may be "overrated"

    nah, i dont think so. they are very fiddly and require a lot of nurturing and that scotches ownership for many people. most people want a tt that they can set up and only mess with if changing a cartridge or tonearm.

    its one of the attributes of the sota and VPI.
    ...regards...tr

  18. #43
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by hifitommy View Post
    Linn may be "overrated"

    nah, i dont think so. they are very fiddly and require a lot of nurturing and that scotches ownership for many people. most people want a tt that they can set up and only mess with if changing a cartridge or tonearm.

    its one of the attributes of the sota and VPI.
    Yes in general when a piece retains value and is sought after - they're not overrated. The Voyd Reference suspended tables sell for many many times their original price (even factoring in inflation). Most turntables are worth less than 1/2 the second you walk out of the door. Suspended takes effort - often a dedicated stand or wall-mount.

    I liked the Linn I heard - Soundhounds is a vinyl first dealer (one of the very very few) and have 20,000 LPs all over the place. They can repair all of them, and they set them up for people because they know how. It's important for beginners to have such an experienced dealer - this is the plug and play generation after all.

  19. #44
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    hopefully, these customers are having the setup done just the first time. the enjoyment of the hobby comes from being able to accomplish certain procedures for yourself. but then it WOULD be nice to have the equivalent of scott markwell come in regularly to sharpen things up.
    ...regards...tr

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