Cartridge recs for a budget/vintage table

[oldskoolboarder]

Going to pickup a cheapo Pioneer PL-117D this weekend. It has a Stanton 600 EE, don't know how many hours. I'm just testing the waters to see if I'll get into the vinyl thing.

My system is pretty revealing, so I'd like to make sure I find a cart that's can handle that. I've seen the Shure M97xE, but some reviews say it's a little harsh. I'll be listening mostly to R&B and Jazz on vinyl. I/ve read about the Grado black too. Any recs?

I'm looking to be reasonable, since this isn't a stellar table, but I'd like to make sure I have a cart that doesn't make me give up on vinyl entirely.

[ericl]

wuttup oldskool

I've listened a lot to both the Grado and the Shure, both on a Technics SL-1200. Between the two, I'd pick the Grado. I found it richer and more involving. The Shure is good sounding, accurate, does nothing wrong, but its just not that exciting of a cartridge. Go for the Grado. Its also cheaper.

-Eric

[oldskoolboarder]

Any suggestions for places to find a Grado Black?

[ericl]

AudioAdvisor.com

[Glen B]

Any suggestions for places to find a Grado Black?

The NeedleDoctor, $40.00.
http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/sc....it.A/id.244/.f

[oldskoolboarder]

Thanks fellas.

I was looking at the Goldring table at audioadvisor.com, but it's gone now...

[Woochifer]

At the risk of tooting my own horn and getting self-congratulatory on you, I would also look into the Ortofon OM series. It's one of the most versatile cartridges out there because of its upgradability and high compliance. To upgrade the OM series, all you do is buy a higher line replacement stylus. The replacements range in price from $30 for the Stylus 5 to $190 for the Stylus 40. Each step in between gives you a noticeable improvement in audio quality. It's also a very lightweight design and comes with a removeable weight plate and high compliance, so it's very compatible with most tonearms.

LP Gear still has the Ortofon OM series cartridges on sale, and the $110 OM20 Super probably offers the most bang for the buck. It has a highly detailed and listenable sound that's a tad lean in the mids, but nice and tight all the way throughout the frequency range. I recently went back to the OM series with the OM30, and it's brought the life back to my vinyl collection. The cartridge can make a huge difference and make even a cheap turntable sound pretty decent (keep in mind that the vintage Pioneer turntables were well made, and offered decent performance for the price).

The Shures are exceptional trackers, so if you plan on buying a lot of used vinyl, that might be a consideration because they can handle warped and off-center vinyl very well.

The main drawback to the Grados is that they are prone to picking up hum from the motor. It depends on the turntable model, but unfortunately you won't know if that hum's an issue until you install the cartridge. Otherwise, they are also very frequently cited as very good value cartridges. I would have tried out one of the Grados, but I read in several places that the Grado cartridges had hum problems with my particular turntable, so I went with the Ortofon.

[E-Stat]

I would also look into the Ortofon OM series. It's one of the most versatile cartridges out there because of its upgradability and high compliance.

Interesting approach by allowing access to better styli. I've had a couple of Ortofons over the years (first an M15E back in '74) and was very pleased with them. I'ld like to hear a comparison between my current Dynavector and one of the Kontrapunks.

I owned one Grado and never took a liking to it.

rw

[ericl]

I owned one Grado and never took a liking to it.

My first Grado was a Red, used on a music hall mmf-5. i got the hum there, and did not like the cart much at all. I then used it on ariston deck i had for a while, and it was much better. Much later, I tried the black on the Technics, and it was great. Its all compatibility I guess.

[nobody]

At the risk of tooting my own horn and getting self-congratulatory on you, I would also look into the Ortofon OM series. It's one of the most versatile cartridges out there because of its upgradability and high compliance. To upgrade the OM series, all you do is buy a higher line replacement stylus. The replacements range in price from $30 for the Stylus 5 to $190 for the Stylus 40. Each step in between gives you a noticeable improvement in audio quality. It's also a very lightweight design and comes with a removeable weight plate and high compliance, so it's very compatible with most tonearms.

LP Gear still has the Ortofon OM series cartridges on sale, and the $110 OM20 Super probably offers the most bang for the buck. It has a highly detailed and listenable sound that's a tad lean in the mids, but nice and tight all the way throughout the frequency range. I recently went back to the OM series with the OM30, and it's brought the life back to my vinyl collection. The cartridge can make a huge difference and make even a cheap turntable sound pretty decent (keep in mind that the vintage Pioneer turntables were well made, and offered decent performance for the price).

The Shures are exceptional trackers, so if you plan on buying a lot of used vinyl, that might be a consideration because they can handle warped and off-center vinyl very well.

The main drawback to the Grados is that they are prone to picking up hum from the motor. It depends on the turntable model, but unfortunately you won't know if that hum's an issue until you install the cartridge. Otherwise, they are also very frequently cited as very good value cartridges. I would have tried out one of the Grados, but I read in several places that the Grado cartridges had hum problems with my particular turntable, so I went with the Ortofon.

I agree that the Ortofon carts are great. I started with an OM 10 and have upgraded to the stylus 40. The upgradeability of the series is really nice and makes it so much cheaper than getting a whole new cartridge. It's also really easy to switch out the stylus for a 78 one if you even plan on playing 78s.

The only Shure I've used is a M91ED, which is no longer available, but it is a great cartridge for questionable tables as it tracks fantastically, has a strong output, and seems to roll off a lot of surface noise. If you plan on burning a lot of vinyl to CD, the high output and reduced surface noise could make it a great cartridge for the job. From what I've heard others say, the current M97 shares a lot of the same character, but I've not heard one personally.

I did use a Grado Black before, and liked it. I had no hum on my table, but it doesn't trak as well as the Shure or Ortofon. I liked the midrange on it quite a bit, nice rich sound, but it was a bit spitty in the high end. Hard to say really as I was using it on a really old table.

[ericl]

I've been curious about these Ortofons. I'm looking for something new to use with a very light old carbon-fiber tonearm.. I wonder if they would be compatible?

[nobody]

Yup. They came standard on many Duals that had a very light arm, and the OM10 came standard on my Thorens TD 190, which is basically a rebadged Dual with a very light arm.

[oldskoolboarder]

OK, I like the concept of just upgrading the stylus. That'll give me incremental upgrades w/o breaking the bank. Probably works better w/ the WAF factor too..

Suggestions where to purchase the Ortofon?

[nobody]

You can get a Super OM10 here for 59 bucks, shipping included. I got my upgraded cartridge from 'em and they shipped pretty quickly.

http://www.sloca.com/default.asp?productid=8033

[dean_martin]

I agree with nobody (the previous poster, not...oh well). I had a Dual with the ULM arm (ultra low mass) that came standard with a cart made by Ortofon. In fact, its body style resembles the current OM series. I'm seriously considering the OM 20 for my Pro-Ject 1.2. I just hope I can still find it for around $110 when I finally pull the trigger.

[Woochifer]

I agree with nobody (the previous poster, not...oh well). I had a Dual with the ULM arm (ultra low mass) that came standard with a cart made by Ortofon. In fact, its body style resembles the current OM series. I'm seriously considering the OM 20 for my Pro-Ject 1.2. I just hope I can still find it for around $110 when I finally pull the trigger.

LP Gear has it for that price still, as does J&R Music World.

[Woochifer]

I've been curious about these Ortofons. I'm looking for something new to use with a very light old carbon-fiber tonearm.. I wonder if they would be compatible?

When I was looking around at cartridges recently, I weighted going with a MC cartridge, but the tonearm on my turntable is low mass and if you do the math, the low compliance typical of MC cartridges might not have worke very well. The OM carts are high compliance and have a removable weight plate, so tonearm matching will not be an issue. On a low mass tonearm, you just remove the weight plate and the entire cartridge will weigh less than 2.5 grams -- works very well with a low mass tonearm.

[oldskoolboarder]

1) How would I determine if my tonearm is low mass or not?
2) What steps should I take when installing the cartridge? This is all new to me. Pointers to threads would be awesome.

BTW, any thoughts on this?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

[squeegy200]

Something that has yet to be mentioned: What Phono Preamp will you be using? That would determine if you can use a MC or MM Cartridge.

[oldskoolboarder]

Something that has yet to be mentioned: What Phono Preamp will you be using? That would determine if you can use a MC or MM Cartridge.

1) My Pioneer Elite 45TX has a phono input.
2) What difference does it make between MC or MM? I did a quick read of the differences but not sure what impact it has on my choice.

[JoeE SP9]

1) My Pioneer Elite 45TX has a phono input.
2) What difference does it make between MC or MM? I did a quick read of the differences but not sure what impact it has on my choice.

MC cartridges require more gain than MM. This is not a hard and fast rule. There are high output MC cartridges. If your phono input does not specify MC or is not adjustable between MM and MC you probably do not have enough gain for most MC cartridges. High output MC cartridges can be run directly into a MM phono input but they generally do not have as high an output as a MM. You will just have to advance your volume control a little more. My ARC SP9 has a phono input with enough gain for a MM cartridge. I use a Marcof head amp with 20db of gain when using a low output MC cartridge(Ortofon). When using my Shure(MM) the Marcof is not used. I sometimes use a Dynavector(MC) that has high enough output to bypass the Marcof. Incidentally devices such as the Marcof are commonly called head amps. They provide gain with no RIAA equalization. The output from them typically goes directly into the phono input. Some "audiophiles" think MC cartridges sound better. I will say they sound different than MM cartridges. MC's are my personal preferrence. If you are at all like me you will end up with a variety of cartridges MC and MM.

[oldskoolboarder]

Started listening today. My system is pretty revealing, badly recorded CDs sound bad. Same goes for LPs. Good/great recordings are fantastic though. I did have one LP recording of the Whispers that was fantastic.

Unfortunatley, most of the TT's sound seems thin and veiled, if that makes any sense. I'm wondering if a new cart, like an Ortofon OM10 would solve this and open up the sound.

[Woochifer]

1) How would I determine if my tonearm is low mass or not?

I don't have the info in front of me, but there are some general rule of thumb guidelines out there that match the mass of the tonearm with the compliance that you need from the cartridge. In general, low mass tonearms have fallen out of favor in recent years because they don't work well with a lot of moving coil cartridges. If you plan on installing a MM cartridge (which all of the cartridges mentioned on this thread are), the mass of the tonearm is not as much of a concern.

2) What steps should I take when installing the cartridge? This is all new to me. Pointers to threads would be awesome.

If you've never done it before, proceed with caution because there are multiple steps involved. Basically, you need a set of needle-nosed pliers to connect the wires in the back of the cartridge.

After you install the cartridge, then you need to balance the arm (this involves making sure that the arm is balanced at the correct level when the tracking force is set at 0 grams). Once you balance the arm, then you set the tracking force, and antiskating force (if applicable). The tracking force will be recommended by the cartridge manufacturer, and the antiskating will typically be identical to the tracking force.

THEN, at a minimum, you need to make sure that the overhang and azimuth are done right. To do this last step, you should get an overhang protractor. That will allow you to correctly set the overhang and eyeball the correct azimuth angle (incorrect angles will shift the channel balance and increase the wear on the record).
There are general guidelines that match the type of compliance with certain tonearm masses. The tonearm on my turntable is well known for its low mass, so I just figured that I did not want to chance any potential problems with a MC cart.

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merc...tegory_Code=PE

Unfortunatley, most of the TT's sound seems thin and veiled, if that makes any sense. I'm wondering if a new cart, like an Ortofon OM10 would solve this and open up the sound.

The cartridge is what defines the tonal characteristics of the turntable. It really is a make or break component in a turntable setup. The greatest turntable on the planet cannot overcome deficiencies in the cartridge. Even a low end turntable will benefit from a decent cartridge. One of the earliest upgrades I made when I was in high school was upgrading my parents' cartridge from a Stanton 681EE to the original Ortofon OM10, and the improvement was stunning. The Stanton 600 I believe is a club cartridge, and designed more for minimal damage while backcuing than optimal sound quality.

That cartridge that you linked on Ebay might be okay, but I would be very careful about buying a cartridge at an auction site. Unless you have a high magnifying glass and know what to look for, you have no idea on whether that cart is actually brand new. Plus, I'm not sure if the OMB uses the same cartridge body as the Super OM carts. Ortofon made some updates to the magnet assembly when they introduced the Super OM carts in the late-80s. I believe that they kept the old design for the OM3 and OM5. If you buy an OM10, make sure that it has the Super designation on it.

2) What difference does it make between MC or MM? I did a quick read of the differences but not sure what impact it has on my choice.

Won't have any impact because MCs are generally in the $200 and over range. MCs have a different type of sound, but they're a much bigger hassle because 1) you cannot change the stylus when it wears out, 2) the output might be too low, which would require that you buy an outboard phono preamp, and 3) they're more difficult to match to the tonearm because of their low compliance. If you're a vinyl newbie, forget about MC until you've figured out how serious you are about vinyl.

[oldskoolboarder]

Appreciate the detailed answers. Yeah, I figured that a new cart might help me out. Gonna give the Ortofon a try and see if I can hear the improvement.

Wow, installing can get involved. I've changed the cart back in the day on my parents old TT. But I never even considered all the other adjustments.

Exchange messages w/ the seller on the OMB. Apparently, he gets the OM10's in bulk, which is how (he claims) some TT manufacturers get 'em. So the OMB is the basically the same. I'm game for $30.

[Woochifer]

Exchange messages w/ the seller on the OMB. Apparently, he gets the OM10's in bulk, which is how (he claims) some TT manufacturers get 'em. So the OMB is the basically the same. I'm game for $30.

Not so sure about that, because I believe that the OM3 and OM5 use a slightly different cartridge body from the Super OM10, 20, and 30. A lot of the OEM carts that get installed are the OM3 and OM5. If the OMB is taken from the OEM stock, then it might use that same body design. The stylii are still interchangeable, but the Super OM bodies supposedly incorporate more recent refinements.

J&R is still selling the OM10 Super for $50. You know it's a factory new unit, and it comes with the U.S. warranty. It's an extra $20, but for the extra peace of mind, I would consider that well worth the price. Personally, I would not buy a cartridge on Ebay simply because you have no idea how much mileage the cartridge has already tracked when it arrives.