How much does an amp circuity design affect sound?

[manlystanley]

I wanted to start a thread as to why I decided to go with the Aikido preamp design, instead of one of the Chinese designs of famous amps.

1.) The amp designs that were copied by the Chinese were quite old. They were optimum for their time. However, the state of design has improved. For instance, older amps used negative feedback, newer amps do not.
**Note: I am a Computer Scientist and Math major and know limited about electronic design. I'm just re-stated what I've read. So don't expect me to defend this.

2.) If you look under the hood of modern preamps that do not have added features such as: remote control, bass/treble control, etc. it looks very simple. Were talking: a Transformer, power supply, and audio board (with four tubes, handful of resisters and capacitors). And that's basically it. Then why do the high end preamps cost: $2000+. The reason is: high quality tubes and audio capacitors are expensive. Further, getting thousands of tubes that sound the same is a challenge.

-- So, a major cost of the preamp is higher grade components; **AND** getting these components (particularly tubes) that sound the same.

-- Secondly, with the Chinese preamps I have no idea of what quality of parts they have. Just a couple of $40 output capacitors can drastically change the sound of an amp. If the Chinese finished product costs $250, what type of components are they putting into it?

3.) A companies need for profit is very large. When I was working technological start-ups I was to, a new product must cost the consumer:

-- 10 times the price company of the raw parts.
-- or 2.5 time the price of the finished saleable product.


-- Why is this? Well, anything less is a indicative of a company gradually going out business. A company needs profit for: employees salary, benefits; rent, advertising, user support, capital to research new products, etc, etc.

-- In other words, buying a design from a ready made product that costs 2000+ does make it really a better sounding amp them a $100 hobbyist board.

4.) As I have found out, everyone has different tastes in sound. Having a well known product where everyone builds it as a hobby, provides a huge pool of advice on how to get the sound that I want. For instance, I have had multiple long private conversations with guys who are more then happy to tell me what capacitors, tubes, etc that they liked and why. It opens up a micro level of sound optimization that I never have tried.

-- Plus you meet the nicest people. One guy from the great state of Georgia is sending me an old chassis, switches, transformer, etc that he didn't need. I offered to buy them from him, but he just wants postage costs. You meet the nicest people who are tinkering with this stuff.

5.) It is just fun to have a complete new world of sound optimization. I'm excited about this....

Best Regards,
Stan

[Geoffcin]

I would say that different designs contribute greatly to a different sound. However, the basics of amplification architecture have been well developed for the past 40-50 years, and most modern designs are based on these well worn models. Some designs like the Tri-Path and ICE based amps are relatively new, and the Halcro amps uses a propriatary design, but most of what else is out there are based on tried-and-true designs.

[manlystanley]

I would say that different designs contribute greatly to a different sound. However, the basics of amplification architecture have been well developed for the past 40-50 years, and most modern designs are based on these well worn models. Some designs like the Tri-Path and ICE based amps are relatively new, and the Halcro amps uses a propriatary design, but most of what else is out there are based on tried-and-true designs.

Great points. One side note, I didn't make my points initially very clear. I was trying to summarize the research that I had done about the quality of the lower end Chinese audio products vs the DIY option that I decided to go with.

In that regard, what impact does a 'famous' audio design have on sound quality versus quality components. My conclusions is that the older designs are very solid but that newer designs are better and that lower end components detract from the sound as well.

BTW: the higher end Chinese options I'm really intrigued with. They seem to be some very solid products.

Best Regards,
Stan

[Feanor]

Great points. One side note, I didn't make my points initially very clear. I was trying to summarize the research that I had done about the quality of the lower end Chinese audio products vs the DIY option that I decided to go with.

In that regard, what impact does a 'famous' audio design have on sound quality versus quality components. My conclusions is that the older designs are very solid but that newer designs are better and that lower end components detract from the sound as well.

BTW: the higher end Chinese options I'm really intrigued with. They seem to be some very solid products.

Best Regards,
Stan

I think your conclusions are very reasonable, Stan, especially on the quality issue. Bear in mind the board layout as well as quality of components can also effect sound.

Nevertheless one wonders how much tube designs have really improved. I've heard that higher quality components are available today, so that might effect the designs, (just speculation on my part). Board layout is critical especially for digital and class D modules, but maybe less so for tube stuff.

[harley .guy07]

I think any country has the ability to make great components if they use a good design and parts of the same thought. I believe in components made hear when possible but also believe any country can make good stuff. I say look at the component for what it is not where its made.

[Poultrygeist]

The ancient Marantz 7 pre amp is highly sought after and can fetch as much as $4000. The Chinese version on ebay is a Marantz 7 in name only but it's probably a good preamp in it's on right and a steal at it's low price.

If you buy Chinese audio on ebay, make sure it's from a known dealer with a long and established track record. Since most high end audio is now made in China there's no reason to assume that what you can buy on ebay is inferior. The build quality and sound of my Yaqin and Bada amps is as good as the Classe I sold for much more $.

My Chinese amps use high quality Wima and Solen caps. The PCB is as well layed out as I've seen anywhere.

[blackraven]

For the cheap prices of the chinese knockoffs, who cares if it die's after 5 yr when your paying $100 for a Kit that is a copy of a $4K preamp.

Stan, many of the parts that go into modern high end electronics are dirt cheap (note that I did not say all people) and the mark up is huge. In some instances, the chassis and face plate cost the most.

My father became the president of a computer company called Chyron that did the graphics for tv shows. I use to work in the stockroom and factory during my summers off from school. One summer I had to mark up the electronic parts and I was shocked at how cheap electronic parts were back then. We marked parts up over thousands of percent.

[manlystanley]

For the cheap prices of the chinese knockoffs, who cares if it die's after 5 yr when your paying $100 for a Kit that is a copy of a $4K preamp.

Stan, many of the parts that go into modern high end electronics are dirt cheap (note that I did not say all people) and the mark up is huge. In some instances, the chassis and face plate cost the most.

My father became the president of a computer company called Chyron that did the graphics for tv shows. I use to work in the stockroom and factory during my summers off from school. One summer I had to mark up the electronic parts and I was shocked at how cheap electronic parts were back then. We marked parts up over thousands of percent.

BR, great post. The Chinese (and the third world) definitely have the know how and low labor and overhead rates to make them more competitive. But, they don't have the name brand skills and they must fight against themselves (e.g. one guy over hear gets ripped off by a Chinese firm, posts his anger, and people think all the Chinese firms are all the same.

When you look at the components that go into an preamp or power amp, it's really cheap. As someone said, the chassis is the most expensive part. The mark up is both for: name brand, and engineering skills. I'm trying to design my preamp power supply now. Even using a PS kit, it's very complex doing the tubes B+. Fortunately, I have a friend who is helping me out a great deal. I'm very thankful, I had no idea how complex it was.

Best Regards,
Stan

[Glen B]

However, the state of design has improved. For instance, older amps used negative feedback, newer amps do not.

Are you talking strictly tube designs, solid state or both ? I have not seen schematics for any modern tube amps and can comment on whether or not they still employ negative feedback, but there are newer solid state amps that still employ some degree of NFB. See the following schematic samples, where I have redlined the NFB path from output back to the differential.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/191557/FB_01.JPG

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/191557/FB_02.JPG

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/191557/FB_03.JPG

[Feanor]

Stanley,

Any update on your Aikido preamp project?

I'm contemplating doing pretty much the same thing and wonder what has come of your efforts.

See Glassware Aikido Rev.A All-in-One board; (one of several designs from them).

[RGA]

Two issues

1) design as it impacts sound quality A Future Without Feedback? | Stereophile.com Cheaper no feedback amp sounds better than far more expensive SS high power amplifiers - even the designers and engineers of said leading high Power SS amps chose the non feedback cheap tube amp

2) The quality of parts as it effects sound quality - well this is easy - you take the same amplifier or speaker design and you use cheap parts in one and expensive parts in the other. Few produced companies have products wherein they let you audition both. Teresonic is a single driver speaker maker - same cabinet but you can audition a few different drivers to hear that the better part sounds better.

My speakers come in a multitude of versions as well - the cabinet is the same - the parts inside are not - and the differences are not subtle. They have 5 preamps - all are designed exactly the same - the difference is the quality of the caps and the quality of the transformers - yield dramatic improvements - an M8 is considerably better than an M6 which is in turn much better than an M3. Indeed one of the most famous amps out there is the Ongaku - they give away the schematics for free so any DIY hobbyist can build one. It won't sound as good as the production model using off the shelf parts at Parts Express. Then again it won't cost nearly as much either.

But parts matter - not what label is on the front of the box Audio Note

[Enochrome]

Stanley,

Any update on your Aikido preamp project?

I'm contemplating doing pretty much the same thing and wonder what has come of your efforts.

See Glassware Aikido Rev.A All-in-One board; (one of several designs from them).

Has anyone heard anything about the Decware Set Kit? I am thinking about one of those. The only reviews I can find are on their website which is moot. I am not sure about the company they got caught rebadging a Gigaworks dac, upgrading a couple of the capacitors and then putting their name on it and spiking the cost by $600. Although their tube amps are popular.

[sneakyimp]

I have a minor in electrical engineering, but it's been a very long time. I do recall that there was a wide variation in the cost and performance qualities of even the most basic electrical components (resistors, capacitors, inductors, connectors, etc). In catalogs, there were three grades used to specify components
Consumer - suitable for for consumer applications. parts tend to vary widely from the stated specifications. E.g., +/- 10%. Failure at high temps likely.
Commercial / Industrial - more accurate specs (+/- 5%), higher operating temperatures
Military - highly accurate specs, very high operating temperatures.

Obviously, the milspec parts are more expensive -- and often made of entirely different materials. The consumer-grade parts, because they tend to vary widely from the advertised specs, tend to mean inconsistency in the results and sometimes you get lemons.

As for tubes, I believe without a doubt that guitar amplifiers that use tubes for amplification sound a million times better than the solid state ones. This of course a subjective opinion, but it's an opinion shared by all the professional guitar players I know. Tube amps sound sweeter and are much much louder at the same wattage ratings than a solid state amp. Ampeg's venerable SVT tube head (at 300 watts) is solid, utterly reliable, and LOUD AS HELL. Their solid state amps at much higher wattage ratings are just....crap.

Then there is the issue of circuit design. Modern systems make much greater use of integrated circuits and these also come in consumer, industrial, and military specs. Old circuit designs didn't use any ICs and some folks feel that the old stuff sounds better. I bought a reissue of a 1965 Fender Twin that sounds amazing. Part of the marketing aspect for this amp was that it used the exact same circuit that the original 1965 Fender Twin used -- they gave you a printout of the circuit diagram when you bought the amp.

The question of whether the chinese can make good amps or not is not really fair -- of course they can! Given a circuit diagram and high-grade parts, it's an issue of connecting the dots. The question of whether they do or not is something else entirely. Chinese labor is much cheaper than Japanese labor or labor in most other western countries, so there's some savings there certainly. However, that cheap labor will not provide the same results as one of the old audio repair pros in Los Angeles or Nashville or London who have been serving famous recording studios for years.

As for the actual circuits themselves, these can introduce enormous differences. I would take something from Neve any day over something from Mackie. I would take something from Marshall any day over Peavey.

I don't feel like I can comment on digital vs. analog. That's a tired old debate. I do harbor a suspicion that guys like Klipsch or Lansing or Neve probably know a lot more about the true nature of audio as an exercise in perception than do a lot of the modern engineers. On the other hand, modern technology is undeniably powerful.

At a certain point (anything above $1k for an audio component) I think you can expect that each extra dollar wins you very little extra. As with anything, there's a point of diminishing returns.

[markw]

I have a minor in electrical engineering, but it's been a very long time. I do recall that there was a wide variation in the cost and performance qualities of even the most basic electrical components (resistors, capacitors, inductors, connectors, etc). In catalogs, there were three grades used to specify components
Consumer - suitable for for consumer applications. parts tend to vary widely from the stated specifications. E.g., +/- 10%. Failure at high temps likely.
Commercial / Industrial - more accurate specs (+/- 5%), higher operating temperatures
Military - highly accurate specs, very high operating temperatures.

Obviously, the milspec parts are more expensive -- and often made of entirely different materials. The consumer-grade parts, because they tend to vary widely from the advertised specs, tend to mean inconsistency in the results and sometimes you get lemons.

As for tubes, I believe without a doubt that guitar amplifiers that use tubes for amplification sound a million times better than the solid state ones. This of course a subjective opinion, but it's an opinion shared by all the professional guitar players I know. Tube amps sound sweeter and are much much louder at the same wattage ratings than a solid state amp. Ampeg's venerable SVT tube head (at 300 watts) is solid, utterly reliable, and LOUD AS HELL. Their solid state amps at much higher wattage ratings are just....crap.

Then there is the issue of circuit design. Modern systems make much greater use of integrated circuits and these also come in consumer, industrial, and military specs. Old circuit designs didn't use any ICs and some folks feel that the old stuff sounds better. I bought a reissue of a 1965 Fender Twin that sounds amazing. Part of the marketing aspect for this amp was that it used the exact same circuit that the original 1965 Fender Twin used -- they gave you a printout of the circuit diagram when you bought the amp.

The question of whether the chinese can make good amps or not is not really fair -- of course they can! Given a circuit diagram and high-grade parts, it's an issue of connecting the dots. The question of whether they do or not is something else entirely. Chinese labor is much cheaper than Japanese labor or labor in most other western countries, so there's some savings there certainly. However, that cheap labor will not provide the same results as one of the old audio repair pros in Los Angeles or Nashville or London who have been serving famous recording studios for years.

As for the actual circuits themselves, these can introduce enormous differences. I would take something from Neve any day over something from Mackie. I would take something from Marshall any day over Peavey.

I don't feel like I can comment on digital vs. analog. That's a tired old debate. I do harbor a suspicion that guys like Klipsch or Lansing or Neve probably know a lot more about the true nature of audio as an exercise in perception than do a lot of the modern engineers. On the other hand, modern technology is undeniably powerful.

At a certain point (anything above $1k for an audio component) I think you can expect that each extra dollar wins you very little extra. As with anything, there's a point of diminishing returns.

I just find it quite incongruous that the above post was written by the same person who initiated this thread.

[JoeE SP9]

markw:
Very good point.

[sneakyimp]

Why is that exactly? I did my best to sound like a know-it-all in this thread because I had to make 5 posts before starting my own thread. I do have plenty of experience with guitar amps, having played guitar for a very long time, but I have only the barest knowledge of how one might fix a consumer audio crossover.