Wiring for Amplifiers

[dk2k-04]

Does anyone know what size of wiring I should have going to my stereo system? I currently have 14 Gauge running about 50 ft. to it, and I was wondering if I should upgrade it to 10 Gauge or so..? I run 4 amps @ around 3000 watts total power and a 150 watt powered sub, and when I turn it up loud the lights on the front of my amps start to dim pretty badly, they almost go out.... seems like they are starving for power. I also run my computer off the same outlet 24 hours a day on a 450 watt power supply, and when I turn it off and listen to the music at the same volume level, the lights will dim a VERY slight bit less. I just thought I would ask cause maybe someone here knows what I should do so I don't burn down the house. It doesn't help that the electrical system in my house is not up to code (14 Gauge wire on a 20 Amp breaker). Any help you can give me is greatly appreciated! Thank you!

[markw]

For that length run to the speakers, a thicker cable might be in order.

As for the lights diming, I think you've answered your own question here "It doesn't help that the electrical system in my house is not up to code (14 Gauge wire on a 20 Amp breaker)". Short of the obvious answer, which you already know, is to keep some charged fire extingushers at close hand.

[E-Stat]

Does anyone know what size of wiring I should have going to my stereo system? I currently have 14 Gauge running about 50 ft. to it, and I was wondering if I should upgrade it to 10 Gauge or so..? I run 4 amps @ around 3000 watts total power and a 150 watt powered sub...

I'm confused as to what the 50' run of wire running to "it" is given your last statement. Is that speaker wire or power? If speaker, I would look into seeing if I could minimize that length and moving to 12 gauge at minimum. Also, where did you get the 4 amps / 3000 watts? 4 amps x 120 volts = 480 watts.

rw

[FLZapped]

Does anyone know what size of wiring I should have going to my stereo system? I currently have 14 Gauge running about 50 ft. to it, and I was wondering if I should upgrade it to 10 Gauge or so..? I run 4 amps @ around 3000 watts total power and a 150 watt powered sub, and when I turn it up loud the lights on the front of my amps start to dim pretty badly, they almost go out.... seems like they are starving for power. I also run my computer off the same outlet 24 hours a day on a 450 watt power supply, and when I turn it off and listen to the music at the same volume level, the lights will dim a VERY slight bit less. I just thought I would ask cause maybe someone here knows what I should do so I don't burn down the house. It doesn't help that the electrical system in my house is not up to code (14 Gauge wire on a 20 Amp breaker). Any help you can give me is greatly appreciated! Thank you!

14 guage is code for many places. However, your problem is that you have the capability to far exceed the circuits ability to deliever power. A 20 amp circuit at 120 volts, is 2400 watts. Therefore, it sounds like it is time to call an electrician and have a proper circuit installed.

-Bruce

[Geoffcin]

Does anyone know what size of wiring I should have going to my stereo system? I currently have 14 Gauge running about 50 ft. to it, and I was wondering if I should upgrade it to 10 Gauge or so..? I run 4 amps @ around 3000 watts total power and a 150 watt powered sub, and when I turn it up loud the lights on the front of my amps start to dim pretty badly, they almost go out.... seems like they are starving for power. I also run my computer off the same outlet 24 hours a day on a 450 watt power supply, and when I turn it off and listen to the music at the same volume level, the lights will dim a VERY slight bit less. I just thought I would ask cause maybe someone here knows what I should do so I don't burn down the house. It doesn't help that the electrical system in my house is not up to code (14 Gauge wire on a 20 Amp breaker). Any help you can give me is greatly appreciated! Thank you!

That's what I did when I built my family room. I have two dedicated 20 amp lines running to the front wall, and one is used solely for my amps & subwoofers. If your getting power drops while using your gear you could possibly DAMAGE your equipment, so it's very imperative that you call an electrician right away.

[dk2k-04]

markw:
LOL @ fire extingushers...

E-Stat:
Sorry E-Stat, I guess I should elaborate more. The 50' of wire is power cable. As far as the 4 amps / 3000 watts, I am talking about running 4 amplifiers with a total output of a bit over 3000 watts going into 8 floor speakers and a pair of 12" car subs, and then the 150 powered sub.

FLZapped:
Yeah, I am actually afraid to really let 'er rip, given the ammount of dimming that occurs on the amps.

Geoffcin:
Well.... damaging equipment doesn't sound like much fun. My house really sucks for doing any kind of electrical work on it, and just replacing one line is probably more work than I think. Calling an electritian is probably not too smart given that the house is not up to code. Either way, I still plan on getting more amps / speakers in the near future. Would it be smarter to run 1 10 gauge wire, or a couple of 12's, or maybe a couple of 10's? By the time my system is "complete" I will probably be putting out somewhere between 8k and 10k watts. So I'm going to need at least 4-5 more amps, maybe more. Also I was thinking of picking up a couple more (200 watts a piece) 15" powered subs. I have no idea how much current all of this will take.... I know that my current 14 gauge will never be able to handle all of that stuff though.



Thanks to all who replied so far. I appreciate all the info you have given me.

[topspeed]

What are you running, a DJ system? If you could list your equipment and what you are trying to achieve, that might be helpful.

[dk2k-04]

I am just running a 2 channel setup. I only have a little over 3000 watts now, 10000 is what I hope to achieve. I won't list my equipment cause I don't feel like getting criticised, as I am not running a Krell, Mcintosh etc... setup.

Thanks again for all your replies

[FLZapped]

I am just running a 2 channel setup. I only have a little over 3000 watts now, 10000 is what I hope to achieve. I won't list my equipment cause I don't feel like getting criticised, as I am not running a Krell, Mcintosh etc... setup.

Thanks again for all your replies

Holy Cow that's a lot of power! I do wonder why you feel you need to run so much? The last speaker system I saw that needed tons of power were the DQ-10s, which could soak up 700 watts and not fill a room, is this your situation?

You're going to end up with multiple 60 amp circuits at this rate and probably have to change your house service as well. As it is, you need at least a 30 amp circuit to run what you have now.

I seriously hope you aren't permanently damaging your hearing in this process.

-Bruce

[dk2k-04]

Na, I run very efficient speakers. I'm not even sure if I actually need 10000 watts, but currently cannot fully test my system to find out if I am even remotely happy with it. I'm in a half way decent sized room, nothing huge (15x20' or so). Also I would like a system where I do not have to crank it 3/4 the way up just to get it to my desired listening level. In a couple days I will have another 1800 watts to throw out, so it will be roughly 5k watts as I have another amp coming (if I could fix my M-80 then i'd have quite a bit more power also... which I hope to do in the near future)

Not quite sure on the hearing loss, but I also shoot guns w/ no hearing protection, and my stereo comes nowhere close to that level of sound as far as I can turn it up right now.

So I should be ok at least for a little while with some 10 gauge? Or should I just run 2 10 gauge lines now to save me some trouble in the future?

Thank you

[topspeed]

One of the great things about this particular board is that there isn't anyone here who will thumb their nose at what you are running. The reason I'm asking is that I've never seen or heard of a two channel home system needing the kind of juice you are talking about. Even highly inefficient rigs I've heard (84dB/w/m) can get to deafening levels with 300 watt mono's. Something is just not calculating right for me here. Are you taking your wattage ratings at 2 ohms? Seriously, at the power levels you are talking about, I can't see how your neighbors haven't had you arrested yet. I'm not bashing you, just trying to get a better handle on the situation because so far, it's not adding up.

BTW, if you're not happy with it at these power level, you're not going to be any happier with more. Bad sound at 85dB's is just as bad (if not worse) at 95dB's. Bare in mind that the average speaker produces right around 90dB's using only one watt of power, measured at 1 meter.

[piece-it pete]

Hello dk!

14ga is code in some places, for a 15 amp line. Which in most places equals about 1800 watts.

You could run 2 ga to your equipment and all it'll do is start the fire in your walls instead of the floor under your cord.

Sorry. But if you can't afford to run a new line you should have an electrician swap the 20 amp circuit breaker in your box to a 15 amp one, it wouldn't cost much and, instead of mulling over your melted/burned equipment/rest of your stuff/person you'll just have to swear and reset the breaker - a MUCH better problem. This is deadly serious - you are playing with lives here.

Also try to plug your various amps into different circuits around the house. It might mean running more extension cords, but the load will be spread out over your electrical box vs one little circuit. This should help the dimming, it might even improve the sound.

Good luck!

Pete

[FLZapped]

Not quite sure on the hearing loss, but I also shoot guns w/ no hearing protection, and my stereo comes nowhere close to that level of sound as far as I can turn it up right now.


Thank you

Oh boy. It's a pretty good bet that you've done serious damage to your hearing if you are not using hearing protection to shoot.

-Bruce

[dk2k-04]

Just out of curiosity, where did you guys get that I did not like the sound quality? I just mean that it ain't nowhere near loud enough. Quality is awesome though.

FLZapped:

Maybe so.... I don't notice though, I still seem to have really good hearing... I can hear my parents whispering down the stairs, hehe.

OK, I give up, I will list my equip, but please no criticisim

************************************************** *****************

Yamaha EQ-500 Equalizer

Pioneer PD-M403 CD Player

Yamaha CX-800 Preamp

Yamaha MX-1000 ---> 1 PairCerwin Vega DX-7's (4 Ohms each)

Onkyo M-504 ---> 1 Pair Cerwin Vega VMX-2DVC Car Subs (2 Ohms each)

Yamaha M-85 ---> 1 Pair Technics SB-A54 (8 Ohms Each)

1 Pair Technics SB-A28 (8 Ohms each)

Yamaha MX-830 (replacement for broken M-80) ---> 2 KLH 9915's 8 Ohms (I know, they suck, but you probably think all my gear sucks...)

Yamaha SW-160 Powered sub

Yamaha M-50 ---> Currently unused

************************************************** *****************

I am a HUGE fan of Yamaha components and CV speakers and LOUD BASS.

Go ahead, judge me, lol

How would thicker cable and an upgraded breaker/outlet start a fire in the wall?!?

I know, I'm rambling.......

I will stop....

Thanks again for all your input, hopefully I get some sort of idea of what to do, as I would like to hear my system turned up loud some day.

[E-Stat]

Oh boy. It's a pretty good bet that you've done serious damage to your hearing if you are not using hearing protection to shoot.

Ditto. I use hearing protection whenever I mow the lawn or use the gas string trimmer. Double protection (in ear and purpose-built shooting headphones) when I target shoot.

rw

[piece-it pete]

OK, I give up, I will list my equip, but please no criticisim

Go ahead, judge me, lol

Gaaaa!! Ack. Thhhhpt. Wanker!!

Just kidding. I see it's not Pyramid amps running Audiofile white van speakers!

How would thicker cable and an upgraded breaker/outlet start a fire in the wall?!?

When you use wire past its' capacity it gets HOT. It will melt its' insulation and cause a fire by 1) the heat, or 2) by arcing. Right now, when this happens it will probably melt the extension/power cords first, unless you're using really heavy duty ones. Upgrade the extension cords, and it'll be the wiring in the walls that melts 1st.

If you swap the circuit breakers to 15 amp, which is what 14 ga wire is rated to, when you overdrive the wire the circuit breaker will pop, preventing the wire from getting too hot and burning down the house. Sooooo, the cheapest way to protect you, your stuff, your person and your neighbors is to swap out your circuit breaker.

Having 14 ga run to the wall socket, then 12 ga from the socket to your amp won't do anything for your amp. It's like running 14ga speaker wire halfway to your speakers, then 12ga the other half. It's really all or nothing.

Your best solution for getting more power to your amps is to plug different amps into different circuits. If your lights are dimming then your amps are not getting enough power. Changing the power cord will do exactly nothing. Using more circuits in your house will, probably make it louder and clearer at the levels you're looking for.

Good luck, and for Gods' sake swap that circuit breaker!!

Pete

[FLZapped]

[QUOTE=dk2k-04]

FLZapped:

Maybe so.... I don't notice though, I still seem to have really good hearing... I can hear my parents whispering down the stairs, hehe.

Well, I can hear conversations fine too, yet I know my hearing is nowhere near as good as it once was, nor as good as it could be had I taken better precaustions earlier in life, but this was not a big topic of debate when I was young.

You might want to look into protecting your hearing where it is at now. As Estat said, that includes lawn equpment and even driving with the window down, the air blowing in your ear can do a amazing amount of damage over time.

Anyway, that's a nice list of equipment. One thing you might want to consider about raw power, is the noise floor specification, usually listed as a positive dB ratio based on full power output.

Most amps achieve100-110 dB, which means that as you increase the poser of the amp, the absolute noise floor is rising too. At some point, that residual noise might become audible, especially in a very quiet room.

Another problem you might encounter with too much power is that the dead-band crossover distortion increases with decreasing power, if you have so much power available that you cannot use, you run more of a risk at running your amp where that distortion is going to be higher thatn a smaller amp might be since it is operating at a higher output level. Now whether that is a noticable thing, it probably depends a lot on the speakers you are using and the environment you are using them in.

I once had a link to an OSHA chart that gave the amount of exposure you could endure at varous sound levels before damage became permanent. I will try and find it and post it for you

-Bruce

[FLZapped]

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad...able=STANDARDS

Please understand that this uses an A-weighted measurement, which is a curve based on speech. They post a link to a chart on their page that shows how that works out.

The actual exposure tolerance levels are in chart G-16.

I personally think one should take that chart as an optimistic view an be more conservative in your own actions.

-Bruce

[dk2k-04]

FLZapped:
Well, if that's the case..... I probably have done some pretty nasty damage to my hearing. Not so much from the stereo system though, but I bet them 45 rounds aren't much good for the ears... Aren't high frequencies more dangerous to hearing too?? Most of my stereo power goes into the lows...but i dunno...

Distortion?!?
As low or as high as I turn my system up I hear no audible distortion... can only use it to about 10% of it's full ability though, but it still can get pretty loud..... beats the $#(@ out of my old kenwood receiver (which probably is only 60 wpc) for distortion loud or quiet.... anyone wanna buy a receiver, hahaha

pete:
I know... I am no audiophile, although I do love my gear where it is at right now, and considering I am only 20 years old, I think I have done rather well. Also with most of the music I listen to, it would sound better to me on my system than on an audiophiles who prefers to listen to clasic music w/ no bass.... What I meant by upgrading the wire was the running new power wire through the walls to my room and replacing the breaker in the circuit box and the outlet in my room. I think what you are thinking is that I meant upgrading the cable from the wall to my amps? I agree that would be the dumbest thing I could do (also would have posted in the DIY area of AR, hehe).

I will ask the question as straight forward as possible (in my opinion)..

Would I be better off upgrading my current line, or keeping my current line for my computer, and running 1 or 2 upgraded (maybe 10 gauge?) cables up to my room for my stereo? I personally do not think that one extra line is gonna be enough, but maybe I am wrong?

Thanks for posting

[piece-it pete]

I will ask the question as straight forward as possible (in my opinion)..

Would I be better off upgrading my current line, or keeping my current line for my computer, and running 1 or 2 upgraded (maybe 10 gauge?) cables up to my room for my stereo? I personally do not think that one extra line is gonna be enough, but maybe I am wrong?

Thanks for posting

OK, now I get it!

Dedicated lines for your amps are IMO a great idea, particularly as you apparently like a lot of watts . So add lines if financially feasable.

Anything past 12 ga is probably overkill. That said, I personally would at least price it both ways (10 ga vs 12). Same with one vs two lines, one line (20 amps has about a 2400 watt capacity) is probably fine, but since the work in installing the line is mostly in "fishing" it through the walls it probably doesn't cost much more to run two lines vs one, so heck get it priced both ways.

Although I think even one new 12 ga line would make a huge difference, so if that's what you can afford......

And it is safe, as well. No matter what, a 20 amp breaker on a 14ga line is very bad news. While your electrician is there have him swap the breaker on your existing line for a 15 amp one.

Good luck!

Pete

[piece-it pete]

pete:
I know... I am no audiophile, although I do love my gear where it is at right now, and considering I am only 20 years old, I think I have done rather well. Also with most of the music I listen to, it would sound better to me on my system than on an audiophiles who prefers to listen to clasic music w/ no bass....

BTW dk,

Your system at 20 is far better than mine at that time. But be careful with those classical guys - they'll pull out their old copy of the 1812 Overture on Telarc vinyl and blow the house down with their 150 watt tubed monoblocks (that cost more than my car)!

Pete

[dk2k-04]

I'm going into town today to pick up yet another set of speakers.. so that will make 10 floor speakers (4 of which are not on the floor at all, haha). It will also bring up my wattage a bit. Oh yeah, in case your wondering what speakers I am looking at, they are the Yamaha NS-777's. I wanna see how Yamaha does speakers. I will let you know what I think of them when I get them. Hopefully they mate with my M-50 ok. Thanks again for your replies.


~Dk

[topspeed]

Nice stuff Dk, seriously.

When you say you're running 5000 watts (or whatever) you are essentially adding all of the peak power ratings of your 4 receivers/amps, is that right? Are you bridging your amps? Are you running all of your speakers at the same time? How are you transferring the source signal to all of the amps and speakers at the same time?

To truly combine all of your amps together, you would need to be bridging them and also matching gains. Also, have you considered the problem with your volume isn't lack of wattage so much as it's cancellation effects you're experiencing from having so many different speakers running in such a small space? It's very possible you simply overloaded your room and physics are working against you.

Just a thought.

[dk2k-04]

topspeed:
Thank you!!!

Yeah, the wattage rating I am giving is the peak power of all the amps added together (at the current impedance rating on each amp, for instance I am not giving 2 ohm rating on a set of 8 ohm speakers, lol). Yeah, I have considered that it may be cancellation, but the loudness is not really a problem. I figure if the electrical wire could handle it, it may even be enough right now, or at least close to what I want.

[CD Player & EQ]-->[Preamp]-->[Distribution Amp]-->[Amp x5, Sub x1]-->[Speakers]
Kinda cheap layout, but I'm too lazy to do it any better... I think you get the idea though.

LOL....
How are you transferring the source signal to all of the amps and speakers at the same time?
Uhh.... RCA cables hooked to the line in's on the amps, and speaker wire hooked up to the little plastic binding posts on the amp.

Just messing w/ you haha.... I just had to say it though...


I max gains out on all amps, and they seem to be pretty close in volumes, but i have no db meter to actually balance them. I do run all speakers and amps at once. Like I said though, I really have no problems w/ volume at current levels (could be better, but no complaints), and I am VERY happy w/ sound quality at the volumes attainable currently.


I guess no go on the Yamaha speakers, at least not for the moment...