Why buy Tube amps versus a transitor amp?

[BallinWithNash]

I have used the search bar and couldn't find anything to really answer my question and searched around on google. The only thing every one keeps saying is that they sound warmer. Define warmer, I mean are they not really bright? Is there any other reason for buying a tube amp other than they sound warmer?

Thank you in advance, BWN

[Hyfi]

Here is a good way to think about it.

Have you ever heard an Album played back on a turntable and reasonable system?

Then listen to the same music on CD.

What you notice is the differences between an analog sound wave (bell curve) and a digital wave (_| |_) all squares. So a typical cymbol crash on vinyl, or most tube amps, will be a nice SHHHHHSSSSSssssss until you don't hear it anymore, just as if you were standing next to it. With a CD, the same cymbol crash may just sound like SHHSS and end very abruptly.

So if you use that same scenario and apply it to SS vs Tubes, you get a picture.

Next think of bass. Many SS amps give deep powerful room shaking bass, but does the sound of the note reflect to resonance of the string it was plucked from? Same note on a tube amp and one may be able to tell if it was a flat wound or round wound string, acoustic or hollow body and so on.

Now all that is not saying that many high end SS amps don't do all those thing right, it was merely for an example of what differences one may hear comparing the two.

Many feel that having a Tube Pre-Amp with a SS amp is the way to go and for many years I have been doing it that way. My recent setup is an all tube dual mono pre, with a hybrid , tube in-ss out, amplifier.

Take some time, find a high end dealer in your area and have a listen to some CJ gear or BAT, VAC and others. Keep in mind, all these systems will also have speakers that will reveal all the nuances provided by the front end.

I hope that helps, if you lived close enough I would demo it for you by swapping out my Stratos for the Conterpoint. Both great but totally different sound.

[RGA]

I agree with the following (provided you have speakers designed to operate on low power - bass is only an issue for tube amps if the speaker is asking for more power than the amp is capable. The way around that is to purchase easy to drive speakers - and then the bass IMO sounds better on SETs than 1000 watt SS),

The analogy I like

" I realised then what it is about solid state audio that makes me uneasy and dissatisfied. It's analogous to the feeling I get working under fluorescent strip lights with their 50Hz switching cycle. It's light right enough, but it makes me feel uneasy and eventually fatigued.

I think that in a similar way, probably the majority of mainstream audio gear fails more or less to transfer to the listener the essential subtle information that makes the artifice of reproduced music acceptable to the brain. Perhaps because of the non-linearity of solid-state amplification, the liberal use of negative feedback, and the non-time and phase coherent nature of most speakers, the information is lost or scrambled. Without it, performances may well have those attributes so beloved of audio reviewers and salesmen like slam and transparency, but as musical events they are reduced to the value of background tunes in lifts or supermarket music.

It's rather like comparing the richness of a Rembrandt to a join-the-dots picture in a puzzle magazine. They're both pictures. But that's where the similarity ends." Kevin F http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/O...al/345133.html

[E-Stat]

Is there any other reason for buying a tube amp other than they sound warmer?

Thirty years ago, Harry Pearson commented in his review of the Threshold Stasis 2 amp that while it had superlative response at the extremes, the Audio Research D-150 was more faithful to the midrange. The midrange? Why is that difficult? Every amp covers that range, right? Only some have good bass control. Only some have wonderful top end extension and the ability to convey the natural air of music. Both of which are characteristic of the Stasis (I later bought a Stasis 3).

It took me nearly twenty years to fully understand what he meant. It is all about the heart of all music - the midrange. While there are exceptions in both camps, I find that the nature of a tube amp's non-linearity (which falls into our perceptual blindspot) conveys the harmonic structure of musical instruments and voice more faithfully. My priorities have changed over the years.

rw

[3LB]

Have ever heard a good tube amp/ speaker combo? They have a distinct sound. Are they better than solid state? are they "more accurate" or "faithful" or whatever? does it matter?

Find someone or some place that has a tube amp set-up, then listen to it...if you really like it, buy it. If not, no big whoop...its a personal preference, not a club.

The only real reason to buy anything is be cause you like it. Dogmas need not apply. I own a TT and some vinyl LPs. Does that mean I don't like CDs? Nope, I just like the way some vinyl sounds. I buy both.

In audio, its ok to keep a harem.

[BallinWithNash]

I have never heard a tube amp or an album played back on a turntable sorry haha. And so basically your saying Tube amps will only make a big difference if you use vinyl? Cause if you use CD's there is really no benefit of buying a Tube amp? .... I'm 18 and everything I have is on CD's but I listen to older rock, country, and alternative. Example, (A lot of Taylor Swift), Foo Fighter's, (A lot of Matchbox Twenty), Shinedown, The Cult. I even have a Three Dog Night CD. But I do not own any records and I mainly listen to "newer" stuff and you can't get them on vinyl (at least I don't think so). So should I just stick with SS amps?
Right now I have a Marantz 2240 as my receiver and I like the way that sounds versus most newer products but like I said I have never heard a tube amp.

[02audionoob]

There's nothing to say a tube amp wouldn't make great music with a digital source. I don't think anyone here means to say that. There's just a similarity in concept in that solid-state amps might do some things better than tube amps, but the tube amps seem to get the midrange right. To some extent, that comparison applies to vinyl and CD.

[BallinWithNash]

Ok, thank you guys again and another question; So I play video games (xbox 360) and have surround I want to keep this but if you get a tube amp it seems like that you would have that set up to a different set of speakers just for listening to music, and should you bi-amp if you have a tube amp?

[3LB]

it depends on your surround setup. Do you have seperate amps for your "surround system currently? (are we to assume a 5.1 system?) What is your current setup?

[BallinWithNash]

Ok, actually what i think i am going to do is just get surround in a box haha ... and then when i get some more money go listen to some tube amps and speakers but should you bi-amp with tube amps or no? Obviously it would depend on your speakers to but lets just say you had some 3-way floorstanding speakers would you want to bi-amp with a tube amp or just get a more powerful one?

[E-Stat]

but should you bi-amp with tube amps or no? Obviously it would depend on your speakers to but lets just say you had some 3-way floorstanding speakers would you want to bi-amp with a tube amp or just get a more powerful one?

If you have the extra budget for bi-amping, then go for it. As for me, I use 300 watt per channel tube amps with my stats.

rw

[Mr Peabody]

I wouldn't want to use my tube's life playing video games, nor do you want to mix tubes and solid state in a surround set up if you really care about the sound.

Biamping is a choice and not a necessity. I really don't think many hear biamp. Just to get a taste of tubes there are some Chinese tube amps that can be had cheap. A friend of mine bought a 25x2 integrated with EL-34's for $150.00, nothing I ever heard of. It only had two inputs. For the price I was impressed, I thought it would run me out of the room with offensive sound. The amp had all the stereotypes of older tube amps, bluming bass and highs a bit rolled off but the overall fidelity was probably on par with a decent receiver.

Also, keep in mind all tube amps are not created equal, nor do they sound the same, the vary as much as solid state.

This may be more than you ever wanted to know about biamping: http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

Here's some good basic info on tube amps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound

In addition, to what's been said tubes give the sound stage a depth and a presence absent with solid state. I say "it lifts it off the paper". A friend of mine puts it well when he says, " it puts the flesh on the bone".

Wait until you get a turntable for your car.

[poppachubby]

In addition, to what's been said tubes give the sound stage a depth and a presence absent with solid state. I say "it lifts it off the paper". A friend of mine puts it well when he says, " it puts the flesh on the bone".

Agreed. If you are the type who puts music on and just listens, stick with the SS. If you are the type who puts music on and tries to sit in a sweet spot, to critically listen to a recording, try the tubes.

I love just hearing the music, but listening intellectually is fun too, especially with the right recording. The Cowboy Junkies recorded "The Trinity Sessions" in a church using only one mic. Each song was cut in one take, live from the floor. Listening to the playback with my Golden Tube, the entire scene is recreated through my speakers, as though I am there watching and listening. Great stuff...

I listen to alot of music with horns and brass. The tubes are able to deliver really sweet tone on sounds which otherwise can be harsh with the wrong synergy or set up.

As a musician I have used a tube amp for years. In that industry, SS literally tries it's hardest to recreate the tube sound. Some amps will have a "Tube Driver" switch or some gimmicky angle that's supposed to give a warm and balanced tone. There's less argument in the instrument amplification world regarding the benfit of tubes.

In audio, we are always stuck at "to each their own" and "let's look at some measurements". IMO, tubes walk all over SS to the point of being unfair. Talk about a handicap. SS is stuck in a wheelchair. Tubes come and dump SS out of the chair, onto the ground and say "ok get up and fight". So, so unfair...

[Feanor]

...

In audio, we are always stuck at "to each their own" and "let's look at some measurements". IMO, tubes walk all over SS to the point of being unfair. Talk about a handicap. SS is stuck in a wheelchair. Tubes come and dump SS out of the chair, onto the ground and say "ok get up and fight". So, so unfair...

OK, Chad, talk's cheap. When are you bringing your Golden Tube over to my place to prove your point!

Email me.

[Hyfi]

Ok, actually what i think i am going to do is just get surround in a box haha ... and then when i get some more money go listen to some tube amps and speakers but should you bi-amp with tube amps or no? Obviously it would depend on your speakers to but lets just say you had some 3-way floorstanding speakers would you want to bi-amp with a tube amp or just get a more powerful one?

You could bi-amp by using an SS amp for the bass and tubes for the top end also.

[Hyfi]

I have never heard a tube amp or an album played back on a turntable sorry haha. And so basically your saying Tube amps will only make a big difference if you use vinyl? Cause if you use CD's there is really no benefit of buying a Tube amp? .... I'm 18 and everything I have is on CD's but I listen to older rock, country, and alternative. Example, (A lot of Taylor Swift), Foo Fighter's, (A lot of Matchbox Twenty), Shinedown, The Cult. I even have a Three Dog Night CD. But I do not own any records and I mainly listen to "newer" stuff and you can't get them on vinyl (at least I don't think so). So should I just stick with SS amps?
Right now I have a Marantz 2240 as my receiver and I like the way that sounds versus most newer products but like I said I have never heard a tube amp.

It was just an analogy, not a statement that tubes are only for vinyl. If you play an album on an SS amp and then the same CD, you will most likely enjoy the vinyl over the CD.

Well recorded jazz and fusion CDs sound incredible on both SS or tubes, a crappy disk will also sound like crap through both.

[Hyfi]

My priorities have changed over the years.

Luckily, this just happened for me over the last year with a little dumb luck having decent gear fall in my lap. As a bass player, I was all about room shaking bass without needing a sub and my Stratos-Dynaudio combo does it well. When I switched to the Counterpoint Clearfield combo, the lowest end was missing but in place was the best midrange I have heard in my home. It took some time to get used to it but with all the tone, timber, soundstage, and other improvments it was starting to get easier to overlook the lack of room shaking bass. I have recently spent a lot of time blending my sub into the latter combo with some decent luck.

[Hyfi]

Ok, actually what i think i am going to do is just get surround in a box haha ... and then when i get some more money go listen to some tube amps and speakers but should you bi-amp with tube amps or no? Obviously it would depend on your speakers to but lets just say you had some 3-way floorstanding speakers would you want to bi-amp with a tube amp or just get a more powerful one?

Depending on what HT receiver you get, if it has RCA line outs for each channel so you could, if you wanted to, use a separate amp for each channel.

I have a main 2 channel system and an HT receiver. I use the front Pre outs from the HT to a Line in on my 2 channel pre. I set the volume to 1 oclock on my VAC pre amp and then the whole thing is controlled by the HT remote and system.

I also have my sub going through a selector switch and can use it with both the main or the HT setup.

Options and configurations are endless.

[JoeE SP9]

For me a hybrid preamp driving bi-amped "stats" works well. I use tubes to drive my stats and SS to drive my subs.

[blackraven]

Take a listen to a Van Alstine Fet Valve 550 amp. As a Hybrid amp with over 500wpc at 4ohms, it has plenty of deep fast bass along with that tube sound. Its even faster, more dynamic and better with the new double die option.

[02audionoob]

Take a listen to a Van Alstine Fet Valve 550 amp. As a Hybrid amp with over 500wpc at 4ohms, it has plenty of deep fast bass along with that tube sound. Its even faster, more dynamic and better with the new double die option.

How would one go about doing that? Frank sells direct...right?

[Mr Peabody]

I believe if I was to mix a system with tubes and solid state biamping would be the way to go with SS on the bottom and tubes on top.

[blackraven]

How would one go about doing that? Frank sells direct...right?

Frank has a 30day no questions asked money back return policy. He gets very few returned and the ones he does, he resells at a discount. People that buy his gear usually hold on to it, thats why you see very few pieces on the used market.

I'm not saying its the best gear in the world but it is a lot of bang for the buck and a great way to get into tubes at a very reasonable price. It out performs stuff costing hundreds to thousands more and all his gear, even the solid state, is made to have a tube like sound.

[02audionoob]

Frank has a 30day no questions asked money back return policy. He gets very few returned and the ones he does, he resells at a discount. People that buy his gear usually hold on to it, thats why you see very few pieces on the used market.

I'm not saying its the best gear in the world but it is a lot of bang for the buck and a great way to get into tubes at a very reasonable price. It out performs stuff costing hundreds to thousands more and all his gear, even the solid state, is made to have a tube like sound.

I meant to ask this question in the context of speaking to the OP. If you're not a serious customer with the thought of actually keeping the gear, I don't suppose you'd want to buy it even with a generous return policy. You can't just go have a casual listen, which is how I first heard modern tube equipment.

[blackraven]

I meant to ask this question in the context of speaking to the OP. If you're not a serious customer with the thought of actually keeping the gear, I don't suppose you'd want to buy it even with a generous return policy. You can't just go have a casual listen, which is how I first heard modern tube equipment.

True, but Frank doesn't mind sending out his gear for in home audition because he thinks that once people hear it they will want to buy it. And he is usually right. The kicker is you have to pay for it and then get your money back. Frank is a very honest and reputable man.