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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
I'd say a lot of people who biamp or triamp do, in fact, mix amp technologies.
Yes they do, and to good effect. There is no reason to believe that integration would be a problem...unless of course crossover points were all over the place. Coming from a single driver frame of mind, your middle range octaves should be covered by as wide a freq band as possible - one amp/one driver.
I see no reason why using a tube amp for say, 100hz and up (maybe an SS for a super tweeter, unless of course your tubes don't rolloff too bad) with an SS for sub-bass would be a ptoblem as long as we're talking about decent quality drivers and amps...and provided your crossover points aren't too close.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3LB
Yes they do, and to good effect. There is no reason to believe that integration would be a problem...unless of course crossover points were all over the place. Coming from a single driver frame of mind, your middle range octaves should be covered by as wide a freq band as possible - one amp/one driver.
I see no reason why using a tube amp for say, 100hz and up (maybe an SS for a super tweeter, unless of course your tubes don't rolloff too bad) with an SS for sub-bass would be a ptoblem as long as we're talking about decent quality drivers and amps...and provided your crossover points aren't too close.
That's the way I see it.
Crossover position and slope are always important. For bi- or tri-amping doubtless the best way to go is to bypass your speaker's built-in crossover(s) and use active crossover upstream of the amps. From what I've heard, overall a higher order, e.g. 4th order, crossover is better since it restricts each drive to its optimum range and minimizes the issue of phase differences between the drivers; (this applies to both active and passive crossovers). Not all speakers designers agree with this approach however.
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I think you gentlemen are getting far more technical than my original point: I wasn't refering to time, phase or the space time continuum... So let me dumb down the discussion and use some basic illustration:
I believe that different technologies eg tube vs SS generally have different sonic properties... same as with different materials used to make speaker drivers... There's a reason for the stereotypes of metal dome tweeters having more of a zing than soft dome, horns having a cupped hands/shouty sound and tube amps being syrupy in the midrange compared to SS... Essentially I think each technology/driver colours the sound in its own way (with less and less colouration as you move to higher quality and generally more expensive designs)...
So if I divide music into high, mid and low frequencies, and use one tech/material for highs, a seperate for mids and another for lows, then each frequency is colured in a different way, thus making the sound less coherent as a whole...
So to use a visual example... Imagine a picture broken down into 3 parts: top, middle and bottom.... If all 3 parts are very slightly coloured red, then chances are that unless you directly compared the picture to the original, that you wouldn't notice the red tint... However if you had a slight red tent at the top, blue in the middle and yellow at the bottom, it would be far more obvious that the picture is off in some way...
Now I know that we each have different sonic priorities/realism triggers and to some persons mixing and matching sounds fine... I remember auditioning a monitor/sub combo and thinking the sub was too obvious and killed the sound... while my friend who accompanied me loved the combo... So my initial point was that "I" can't imagine mixing and matching SS and Tubes amps, in a bi-amping situation, sounding cohesive.... (note that's totally different from mixing a tube pre with a SS power - I can explain the difference if it's unclear)...
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I have read the views on different materials in drivers having different sonic properties. It makes sense, but don’t we run into that in the real world? Drums are made of a different material than a horn or stringed instrument. Even if we were to restrict ourselves to only the piano, aren’t many of the wires single stranded while others are wrapped multiple times. Would it be better or worse to have different sources portrayed by different materials or driven by different amps.?
I don’t pretend to know the answer. Just posting my thoughts.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
So let me dumb down the discussion and use some basic illustration:
I get your point, but I don't believe this 'incoherence' would be as noticeable as you suggest it to be, especially if you're running most of the frequency spectrum with one type of amp. For low frequencies anyway, I imagine it would be very difficult to notice any differences between tube and SS, especially in a configuration such as this one (where one is using different amps to power his speakers).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
I think you gentlemen are getting far more technical than my original point: I wasn't refering to time, phase or the space time continuum... So let me dumb down the discussion and use some basic illustration:
I believe that different technologies eg tube vs SS generally have different sonic properties... same as with different materials used to make speaker drivers... There's a reason for the stereotypes of metal dome tweeters having more of a zing than soft dome, and tube amps being syrupy in the midrange compared to SS... Essentially I think each technology/driver colours the sound in its own way (with less and less colouration as you move to higher quality and generally more expensive designs)...
So if I divide music into high, mid and low frequencies, and use one tech/material for highs, a seperate for mids and another for lows, then each frequency is colured in a different way, thus making the sound less coherent as a whole...
So to use a visual example... Imagine a picture broken down into 3 parts: top, middle and bottom.... If all 3 parts are very slightly coloured red, then chances are that unless you directly compared the picture to the original, that you wouldn't notice the red tint... However if you had a slight red tent at the top, blue in the middle and yellow at the bottom, it would be far more obvious that the picture is off in some way...
Now I know that we each have different sonic priorities/realism triggers and to some persons mixing and matching sounds fine... I remember auditioning a monitor/sub combo and thinking the sub was too obvious and killed the sound... while my friend who accompanied me loved the combo... So my initial point was that "I" can't imagine mixing and matching SS and Tubes amps, in a bi-amping situation, sounding cohesive.... (note that's totally different from mixing a tube pre with a SS power - I can explain the difference if it's unclear)...
No need to dumb it down, unless it helps you to keep up;)
What I was referring to was, IMO, the best way to integrate any bi/tri amp configuration, it also jives with my approach to 3-way speaker design...perhaps it was TMI. But then again, I did quote Feanor.
I don't imagine much of anything with regards to audio, preferring experince when it comes to making up my mind about something.
I do agree you with that our own ears make the best benchmark for what we do and don't like.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
I have read the views on different materials in drivers having different sonic properties. It makes sense, but don’t we run into that in the real world? Drums are made of a different material than a horn or stringed instrument. Even if we were to restrict ourselves to only the piano, aren’t many of the wires single stranded while others are wrapped multiple times. Would it be better or worse to have different sources portrayed by different materials or driven by different amps.?
I don’t pretend to know the answer. Just posting my thoughts.
Interesting point and certainly there may be better materials for replaying the sound of different instruments, but unless the recording has each instrument sound seperated and sent to a specific driver (tuned to that instrument) then I don't see the different driver materials being benifiical... We just end up with bass mids and highs each sounding slightly different (now how noticeable those differences are is the question)...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio amateur
I get your point, but I don't believe this 'incoherence' would be as noticeable as you suggest it to be, especially if you're running most of the frequency spectrum with one type of amp. For low frequencies anyway, I imagine it would be very difficult to notice any differences between tube and SS, especially in a configuration such as this one (where one is using different amps to power his speakers).
For you probably not :devil:
Seriously though, I think it really comes down to the individual... some persons swear by single driver speakers and can't stand the sound of a multi-driver arrangement (my theory is that persons often blame the crossover, when the issue is possibly more due to the mix match of driver materials).... Other persons enjoy hybrids with ribbon tweeters and cone woofers and have no issue with coherence...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3LB
No need to dumb it down, unless it helps you to keep up;)
What I was referring to was, IMO, the best way to integrate any bi/tri amp configuration, it also jives with my approach to 3-way speaker design...perhaps it was TMI. But then again, I did quote Feanor.
I don't imagine much of anything with regards to audio, preferring experince when it comes to making up my mind about something.
I do agree you with that our own ears make the best benchmark for what we do and don't like.
I'm kinda slow today (and most days) so I need to keep it really simple :)
When I talk about 'imagining', I project based on what I've heard so far... I've yet to hear a hybrid speaker/ multiple driver material speaker or sub/monitor combo that sounds cohesive... If I ever hear one that does, then of course my opinion would change.... However, I know many persons have heard those speakers/combos that I've auditioned and had little or no problem with the coherence, so I think it comes down to sonic priorities and realism triggers...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
...
So if I divide music into high, mid and low frequencies, and use one tech/material for highs, a seperate for mids and another for lows, then each frequency is colured in a different way, thus making the sound less coherent as a whole...
...
I think you make this point quite clearly. And it's reasonable enough that different amps will colour the sound in their range differently. However as you'll agree, exactly the same can be said for the different speaker drivers that cover those ranges. So with regard to both speaker drivers and amps, you choose the ones that (a) match the range of frequency response for which they are selected, and (b) don't clash with each other in a disagreeable manner.
The relevance of crossover slope, as you'll likely also agree, is that a steep slope miniumizes the overlap of the different drivers and, in case of mulitamping, the amps so that you don't get an incohesive mix of the characteristics of the two in the same frequency range.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
I think you make this point quite clearly. And it's reasonable enough that different amps will colour the sound in their range differently. However as you'll agree, exactly the same can be said for the different speaker drivers that cover those ranges. So with regard to both speaker drivers and amps, you choose the ones that (a) match the range of frequency response for which they are selected, and (b) don't clash with each other in a disagreeable manner.
The relevance of crossover slope, as you'll likely also agree, is that a steep slope miniumizes the overlap of the different drivers and, in case of mulitamping, the amps so that you don't get an incohesive mix of the characteristics of the two in the same frequency range.
(a) can be done with good engineering... (b) is where I find it gets tricky - finding driver materials that don't clash or SS versus tube amps that are complementary to the point where you don't notice the difference...
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Ajani, I've never biamped yet personally. I always imagined that would be the way I'd do it, tubes on mid/high and SS on bottom. It could work possibly if the crossover was low enough or the particular tube and SS was close in response or character. You have me thinking now because if one used an amp like Krell with an iron grip bass response and the tube amp was even slightly bluming in the bass it could have a blending issue. So your point does have merit.
Not the same at all but when I mixed tube and solid state in a surround sound set up it was very short lived. They did not blend at all and I found it extremely annoying. The mains were driven by a tube amp and center/rear by SS.
In hearing others and setting up others gear in biamping situations I've been impressed with the results and would like to try it some day.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
In hearing others and setting up others gear in biamping situations I've been impressed with the results and would like to try it some day.
I thought Dynaudio didn't believe in bi-amping/wiring
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I'm not sure this qualifies as bi-amping:
I use a hybrid preamp.
I use tubes to drive my ESL's from 80Hz up.
I use SS to drive my subs from 80Hz down.
My crossover has 12dB slopes.
I have never noticed any coherence problems. My problems were related to the differing dispersion patterns between panels and cones. Two subs and a crossover point below 100Hz finally made it work for me.
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AA, true, Dynaudio does not offer but one set of binding posts. The Heresy's I have can be biamped. I can't believe I love a pair of Klipsch this much.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
AA, true, Dynaudio does not offer but one set of binding posts. The Heresy's I have can be biamped. I can't believe I love a pair of Klipsch this much.
$400 Emotiva CD Player and Klipsch Speakers... Mr Peabody, what's happening to you???
Are we going to see you trading in the Dyns for a Bose 901 soon? :p
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
I have never noticed any coherence problems. My problems were related to the differing dispersion patterns between panels and cones.
I find an audible difference using dipolar mains and monopole woofers when reproducing full range sources such as piano. Naturally, I would choose using specialized dipolar SL subs.
http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/ub1.jpg
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
I find an audible difference using dipolar mains and monopole woofers when reproducing full range sources such as piano. Naturally, I would choose using specialized dipolar SL subs.
http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/ub1.jpg
rw
What does that garage door have to do with a discussion about coherence? :arf:
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901's? I have to draw the line some where..... but I should never say never :) Actually, I fell for the horn sound back when I used to sell Electro-Voice. Since their stuff really wasn't for the home it sort of got put on the back burner or buried. Until recently I had no respect for Klipsch, as you may have read. I heard a friend's Klipschorns that can do structural damage and remain clear and clean doing it, I was mighty impressed. He educated me on the Heritage line and I found the little Heresy III's and they were reasonable. So I bought a pair to play with. I intended on putting them in my second system and maybe bringing them into the main system occasionally but I haven't unhooked them from the main system since hooking them up. They sound pretty good with the CJ gear. I can't compare them to the Dyn's, just two different animals. I really miss the bass response of the Dyn's and they are very refined but the Heresy has a live sound and dynamic that's addictive. The Dyn's are in their place with the HT system hooked to them and the Heresy's are sort of in front of them with the CJ amps hooked to them. The Heresy is just short enough and with the slight tilt up it doesn't block much. I guess like that it's still a decor violation but that's why the wife put me and my equipment in the lower level :) If I could fit a Cornwall in there.... it's possible you could have seen a convert.
http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/heritage/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
What does that garage door have to do with a discussion about coherence? :arf:
:lol:
Good one! :thumbsup:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BallinWithNash
I have used the search bar and couldn't find anything to really answer my question and searched around on google. The only thing every one keeps saying is that they sound warmer. Define warmer, I mean are they not really bright? Is there any other reason for buying a tube amp other than they sound warmer?
Thank you in advance, BWN
I've never owned a tube amp -- though I use tube preamp to good effect.
With my Maggies I'd prefer 50-60 wpc which limits the tube choices a bit.
I'd like to try a pair of AES Six Pacs, (here). I'd have to find them on Audiogon, though.
http://www.audioelectronicsupply.com...e/six_pacs.jpg
Another option for me might be a Bob Latino "ST-120" amp in kit form, (here) -- building this would give me a cool retirement project ...
http://www.tubes4hifi.com/VTA120top.JPG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
What does that garage door have to do with a discussion about coherence? :arf:
LOL! Kinda pricey garage doors at that. Brian Cheney did a live-vs-recorded demonstration at CES last year where he said dipole subs worked better. In his case, he used four subs - two of which faced backwards.
He speaks of his experimentation here.
rw
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I can't imagine life without the Golden Tube. I'm looking at an Eico HF-85 pre amp now...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
901's? I have to draw the line some where..... but I should never say never :) Actually, I fell for the horn sound back when I used to sell Electro-Voice. Since their stuff really wasn't for the home it sort of got put on the back burner or buried. Until recently I had no respect for Klipsch, as you may have read. I heard a friend's Klipschorns that can do structural damage and remain clear and clean doing it, I was mighty impressed. He educated me on the Heritage line and I found the little Heresy III's and they were reasonable. So I bought a pair to play with. I intended on putting them in my second system and maybe bringing them into the main system occasionally but I haven't unhooked them from the main system since hooking them up. They sound pretty good with the CJ gear. I can't compare them to the Dyn's, just two different animals. I really miss the bass response of the Dyn's and they are very refined but the Heresy has a live sound and dynamic that's addictive. The Dyn's are in their place with the HT system hooked to them and the Heresy's are sort of in front of them with the CJ amps hooked to them. The Heresy is just short enough and with the slight tilt up it doesn't block much. I guess like that it's still a decor violation but that's why the wife put me and my equipment in the lower level :) If I could fit a Cornwall in there.... it's possible you could have seen a convert.
http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/heritage/
Even though audiophiles often claim that midrange is everything, dynamics can be truly mesmerizing... and no matter how much we diss mass market, there is a reason why mm gear often focuses more on dynamics than midrange magic....
I've been intrigued at the prospect of a pair of Heresys and a low powered tube amp for a few years now, but never got the chance to audition such a combo (hopefully one day a SET/HE combo will be in my second system)....
Maybe you should start looking into a flea watt SET integrated for the Heresys...
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Feanor, here's the gut-rebuild of a Dynaco ST70 I did last year. I bought a junked up non-working ST70 for $80. The only things still original are the chassis and the two output transformers. (Turned out the power transformer was on its last leg and had to be replaced, but that part was one of the weakest points of the original Dynaco design.)
It uses the Triode Electronics driver board with 6L6GC outputs. I use it in a second system and just love it. I know the EL34 has a cult following, but, for me, the 6L6GCs are a serious improvement.
<img src="http://www.rzootoo.com/dynaco/st70mod.jpg">
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