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  1. #1
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    What's the benefit of an amplifier?

    If I have a receiver that generates 130 watts @8ohms, and speakers that handle it, why would I need an amplifier..as many of you seem to include in your systems?

    I do plead ignorance here!!!
    I recall friends in college ( 35 years ago!) having an amp with their system, but never understood what the benefit is??!!!

    I'm sure many of you can enlighten me !!!!!!!

    looking forward to your input...convince me I need one!

  2. #2
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
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    There are multiple reasons for using or integrating an amp into your setup/system and I will let others discuss more in-depth some of the technical advantages, but in general the benefits are such....

    First, a receiver is a multitasker in that it is both processing and amplifying your source, which means that while it might be rated for a certain wattage and such, it is not made primarily for that purpose, but it serves many functions. Because of that fact, a dedicated amplifier is superior to a receiver when it comes to true power and amplification of sound. Again, I won't get into the logistics of this, others can fill you in if you need more explanation.

    Secondly, an amplifier is typically capable of higher output as well, don't just look at the numbers and such, but a dedicated amp is going to be able to drive a wider range of speakers with different handling than a receiver can.

    I currently have my mains driven by a Parasound amp, which is an extension of my Pioneer Elite receiver....I am using the pre-outs on the receiver. Some people just use a pre-amp and skip the receiver, but then you also need a DAC if you want to get digital signal as well through your system. I find that the receiver is a great feature since I can plug multiple digital sources in such as 2 DVD players, Cable box, and Laserdisc player. I am using all 4 of my digital inputs on my receiver. I can also use the 5.1 pre-outs and add amps for each channel, which means if I wanted to I could use a mono-amp for each channel and drive each speaker in my 5.1 setup even more, but for right now the left and right are the only speakers that need the extra power. Not only that, but sometimes I do straight-up 2-channel listening.

  3. #3
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    First of all,are you looking for stereo or surround?I notice in your info that you only have 2 speakers,if so you don't need a reciever at all.Get yourself a nice little integrated amp and that will fill your needs.For stereo that is,for surround things get a little more complicated.If your denon has 5.1 inputs,get yourself a current processor and worry about a power amp later,use your denon for now.That way your processor is a little more modern.I went this route adding an Anthem processor to a Cambridge Audio reciever and the difference was incredible.
    So what i am saying is that there are many options,depending on your system and what you want to do with it.

    bill
    Speakers-Jm Labs
    Disc player-Sim Audio Moon Calypso
    Pre-amp-Sim Audio P-5.3 SE
    dac= sim audio moon 300d

    Amp-Sim Audio Moon I-3
    Display-Toshiba CRT
    Wires and Cables-Kimber,Straight Wire, ixos, Gutwire and shunyata research
    Sacd-Cambridge Audio
    Bluray--Sony and Cambridge Audio
    Remote-- Harmony 1100

    Power-- Monster

  4. #4
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    All watts are not created equal. Most use the HT receiver as an inexpensive preamp. Outboard amps offer a dedicated and most often a much more powerful power supply, you gain better parts quality, and better design which all lend to better sound quality and ability to drive more difficult speaker loads. Many receivers, especially the very cheap, will use an IC chip for an amp section opposed to a "discrete circuit". Discrete circuits are those that are still built on a circuit board with all separate parts. Naturally the IC chips are cheap but don't sound as well.

    Adding the outboard amp will not give you a "high end" system. This set up is still very limited by the receivers preamp section. Although there will be some improvement, it won't be as large as having a better preamp.

    A little extra money in your receiver purchase could do just as well as adding a power amp. A good NAD, Arcam, Rotel or B&K would sound probably overall better than a $499.00 or less receiver strapped to an outboard amp. Many of the better receivers will put more emphasis in the preamp, especially catering to those who want good stereo playback. Of course, you can only put so much in one box and keep the price at a point, so up the sound quality, and goes a few bells & whistles.

    It also depends on what type of sound you are looking for and how far you want to go. If you buy the Onkyo or Denon you are looking at and match them with the proper speakers you could be perfectly happy with that set up. This is where most start but some where down the road get upgrade fever. Since 99% of the people on this board feel the speakers are most important, myself excluded, they buy beyond their receiver's capability and hence the dominos fall, can't drive speakers properly anymore, add power amp, and so on. I believe you said you had a Denon receiver, just ask if you want to stay in that range of sound or go higher.

  5. #5
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Absolutely no reason ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex55
    If I have a receiver that generates 130 watts @8ohms, and speakers that handle it, why would I need an amplifier..as many of you seem to include in your systems?

    I do plead ignorance here!!!
    I recall friends in college ( 35 years ago!) having an amp with their system, but never understood what the benefit is??!!!

    I'm sure many of you can enlighten me !!!!!!!

    looking forward to your input...convince me I need one!
    There is absolutely no reason or basis to support the notion that a integrated amp is necessarily better in performance than a receiver. Or for that matter, that a preamp and a power amp or pair of monoblocks is better than an integrated. In reality it depends on the design and construction quality of the specific component or components in question.

    That said, the finest components are generally separates. One strong advantage of separates is that you can upgrade the various functional parts one at a time, depending on your budget and the state of the art at the time.

  6. #6
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Mr. Peabody gives good advice...

    Good comments here so far. The only thing I can really add to this discussion is that results will be very, very mixed, and depend on a lot of things - price, the components the amp will be matched with, what level of components you're comparing to, and even your own person preference for sound. For some people adding an amp is a good idea, but for others it could be completely unecessary - other areas might benefit more from being upgraded first.

    Mr Peabody's correct in saying that higher end a/v recievers are likely to sound better than a $500 Denon hooked up to an amplifier. If you're spending $600 an a couple of outboard amps you might be better off to consider a higher end receiver. Usually those receivers use most of the same components as their separates, you're paying for that extra refinement. At a $700-$1000 price difference though you'd should expect no less.

    Many of the better receivers will put more emphasis in the preamp, especially catering to those who want good stereo playback. Of course, you can only put so much in one box and keep the price at a point, so up the sound quality, and goes a few bells & whistles.
    Yep! $500-$600 or so is close to the point where a lot of the common brand name receivers just start to benefit from the trickle down effect from higher end models and take the first step up in improved sound quality. I don't think it's coincidence that this seems to be the level where companies first offer full pre-outs.

    FWIW, most a/v receivers I've owned (typically the $800-$1000 price point) have had pre-amp stages that were closer in performance to separates than their internal amplifiers were. Neither were as good, but definitely the amps seem to be where the bigger sacrifices were made for whatever reason. Or my speakers are just more responsive to the amp differences, either way. I'm not sure, but I suspect in the $200-$300 the pre-amps stages wouldn't be worth mating with better external amps.

    I like the option of adding amps to a/v receivers simply because it's a more cost-effective solution to achieve certain goals. In my large room, even a 110 watt X 7 receiver runs out of gas and starts to strain at higher levels. When this happens it's easy to hear. I benefit from adding a few power amps there, not just for the amps' improved sound quality, but to keep things sounding good at louder volumes. That and I'm a sucker for buying used amps when I see an irresistable deal. I've got too many as is.

    I keep listening to Anthem, Rotel, etc pre/pros trying to convince myself to buy one, but the sound quality benefits I hear aren't as big as I hoped for vs the receivers I look at that I just can't justify the cost difference for what for me is primarily an HT only system. Not only that, there's a few useful features in the mess of gizmos that Denon et al pack in their a/v receivers that a lot of pre-pros don't include, which they should.

    I almost bought an Anthem when I bought my Studio's a few years back. Then looked at a Rotel when I added 6th and 7th channels. Decided to buy a good integrated instead and use 2 separate systems. Might have been different if I had to fit everything in 1 room. I suspect in the next year or two I'll be looking at one again to get the latest processing for BluRay or HD-DVD. Maybe I'll find a pre-pro that finally impresses. Maybe I'll stick with a receiver and buy a nice pre-amp and stereo amp instead. In the meantime I have 3 power amps connected to my receiver which was the best way for me to get what I wanted.

  7. #7
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex55
    If I have a receiver that generates 130 watts @8ohms, and speakers that handle it, why would I need an amplifier..as many of you seem to include in your systems?

    looking forward to your input...convince me I need one!
    You don't. The only way to be convinced is to take a dedicated power amplifier home for a weekend - many dealers will let you try before you buy. If your receiver has "preouts" on the back then you can make the connection. Listen to your favorite music.

    This will either "convince you" or it won't. All the techno-babble and forum discussion is of little use unless you try it.

    I certainly would not pay one penny of your hard earned cash without auditioning. The arguments for an amplifier have been made but even still - amplifiers using better parts and more power may still not sound any better than what you have -- and it is also possible that a difference in sound could be a difference to the negative(worse sound).

  8. #8
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    Thanks, Kex for the kind words. I've been hearing the Arcam pre/pro at around $2.5k is a real value.

    Good to see you around again, RGA

  9. #9
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    Thanks for the info.

    As Mr. Peabody included, I am currently picking brains regarding an AVR Receiver. I am deciding between Denon 3806, 2807, or Onkyo TX-Sr805. (~$1000 range).

    I currently own a Denon 2800, and have a 5.1 setup, but am house wired for 6.1 ( I didn't anticipate 7.1, 8. 1, etc. when building onto my house.)

    My front and center speakers are HTD level 2 (on line at www.HTD.com) and I am satisfied with them. My surround are Mirage, (don't recall the # but the are 3-sided, and about 10 inches in height...again I am satisfied with their sound.

    My intention is to replace the current 2800 (I'm moving it to another room) with the 3806, 2807, or Onk 805.

    Sooooooo.....it sounds like I don't need an amp, until I get the urge to upgrade....again!!

    Thanks again for the useful information!!!

  10. #10
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex55
    Thanks for the info.

    As Mr. Peabody included, I am currently picking brains regarding an AVR Receiver. I am deciding between Denon 3806, 2807, or Onkyo TX-Sr805. (~$1000 range).

    I currently own a Denon 2800, and have a 5.1 setup, but am house wired for 6.1 ( I didn't anticipate 7.1, 8. 1, etc. when building onto my house.)

    My front and center speakers are HTD level 2 (on line at www.HTD.com) and I am satisfied with them. My surround are Mirage, (don't recall the # but the are 3-sided, and about 10 inches in height...again I am satisfied with their sound.

    My intention is to replace the current 2800 (I'm moving it to another room) with the 3806, 2807, or Onk 805.

    Sooooooo.....it sounds like I don't need an amp, until I get the urge to upgrade....again!!

    Thanks again for the useful information!!!
    If I were you i'd get new speakers long before an amp.

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