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  1. #1
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    Do tube amps generally lack bass slam vs solid state?

    I have been using an Odyssey Stratos amp for several years mostly with Dynaudio 82s. The low end is incredible as well as everything else. I also have been swapping a pair of Continental Clearfields (early Von Schwiekert) in and out of the mix. The CFs lack low end bass with the Stratos but clearly play every note.

    I just had a Counterpoint NPS-400 brought back to life by RHB Sound Dezign and swapped out the Stratos. I had the CFs in play at the time. Sound was noticeably different but still no real bass slam. I wheeled the Danes back into the mix yesterday for the first time with the Counterpoint and found that there is absolutely no slam at all where there should be. Several of my bass test tracks normally would rumble my listening room like a sub but now, no rumble.

    I added my sub into the mix and found that not only do I get the beautiful sound that the Counterpoint is known for (except for the midrange glare the Stratos does not have) as well as the expected slam and low end frequencies.

    I'm just wondering, is what I just experienced the norm with Tube Amps vs Solid State? Or, is the Stratos really just the Giant Killer it is advertised and reviewed to be?

    Related gear is VAC CLA-1 MKII pre-amp, Rotel CDP, all Synergistic Research cables.

  2. #2
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    My Audio Research CA50 produces pretty good bass, as does their current-model integrated...but not pounding like a 200-watt solid state amp.

  3. #3
    RGA
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    Some points:

    I don't find the Statos to be a giant killer.

    Not all tube amps are designed the same way

    Some tube amps have terrific bass abilities some SS amps don't and vice versa - famous names or not.

    Some designers present a lean bass sound - which may be viewed to be "faster" - others will be richer perhaps less open but deeper. For example my old Sugden A48b with 70 watts per channel had a richer deeper bass sound than a much more expensive Musical Fidelity on the same set of speakers. The MF was leaner but presented a bigger stage left to right and a more "airy" presentation. On smaller scale music and vocals the Sugden to me was much better - but if a big stage is desired the MF was superior.

    Tube amps are the same - low powered tube amps and SETs have more trouble with speakers that have bigger impedance swings and low impedance and bass is usually what suffers. Tubes themselves also play a role. Dynaudios are not really tube friendly loudspeakers. The idea is to match High efficiency loudspeakers to tube amps.

    A good tube amp with speakers of High Efficiency IMO and IME (despite the generalization here) I find to be a lot lot better than SS and low efficiency designs. Some exceptions but in most cases this has been true for me.

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    Isn't the Counterpoint actually a hybrid? Even if not it seems odd no bass with the 82's unless the Counterpoint doesn't do well with a lower nominal impedance speaker. For an experiment why don't you put your solid state preamp back in to see what happens. Any impedance switches on back? You might also bounce this question off the guy who done your repairs to see what he says.

    The only comparison I have is with my own gear. The CJ gives good full rich bass without being slow or bloated. However, CJ don't play as low or have near the control of the lower octaves like my Krell. Footnotes should be my MV60's use EL-34's and there are better tubes for bass control like 6550's. And, not many amps tube or otherwise would have the control of a Krell.

  5. #5
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    With my limited experience with tube amps, the two that I have heard had excellent deep bass especially the Van Alstine FET Valve amp at 500wpc @4ohms.
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  6. #6
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    I agree that it's dangerous to generalize about anything in audio, including SS's supposed superiority over tubes in the bottom end. It's all about synergy and getting an amp that will bring out the best in your speakers and vice versa. Some amps, whether tube, ss, switching, or hybrid work better with certain speakers.

    Also, I agree with RGA that the Stratos is far from a giant killer. It's a very good amp but can be bettered, especially if you (or your rig) are sensitive to the midrange glare and the sibilant top end. I have a friend that ran a pair of Stratos' but quickly switched to ARC tubes after a blind amp comparo. Klaus is a helluva salesperson tho.

    The last time I heard Counterpoint was in the late '80's. I auditioned it with the Mission Argonauts I still own. Many beers later have certainly dulled my recollection of the exact sonic signature of the amp, but I know I didn't buy it. The Missions will never be confused with, say...Cerwin Vega's in the bass department, but being the rocker I am I like to squeeze as much as I can out of them. For sure, the Counterpoint didn't have the slam or depth of the PS Audio/B&K front end I ended up pairing them with. So, long story short, I'd wager that the lack of bass isn't because of the tubes so much as the voicing of the Counterpoint. Bottom line, it wasn't designed to deliver crushing bass.

  7. #7
    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
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    In my listening experience, I would just say that the kind of slam one gets from SS and tube-sets is qualifiably different. I have no doubt that a decent set of tubes will rock the house, but I think the zestful note of the SS is produced tubes more smoothly.

    Then again, mebbe I am swayed by the beauty of the things (Ah, tubes! They're so...so...Ahem!).

  8. #8
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auricauricle
    but I think the zestful note of the SS is produced tubes more smoothly.

  9. #9
    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
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    Ummm....Lessee.....How about "but I think the zestful note of the SS is produced on the tubes more smoothly".

    Had a moment, okay?

  10. #10
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Do tube amps generally lack bass slam vs solid state? In my experience, yes on the lower watt affairs the effects lessening as the watts go higher. i have no doubt that this is an oversimplified view but it may be a starting point...
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  11. #11
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    By the way - Hi Bobsticks. Hope your weekend is going well

    In my experience a lot depends on the power rating of the amp, and the sensitivity of the speakers. If your using say 90db w/ 4ohm nominal impedence, then a 40watt tube amp can be a little 'soft' on the bass. Not soft like muush, but not as tight or well controlled as your typical SS amp. Current drive capability is also critical.

    for example, I've had the Marantz 8b on my speakers, and while there is magic in part of the audioband, the further down the scale, the less grip - so as much as I like the 8b, for my speakers, just not a practical solution given the musical variety. If I just listened to chamber, acoustical or light classical, they would be ideal.

    I've heard highly touted and very expensive amps sound not too great becuase they were paired with the wrong speaker.

    A great alternative is the Hybrid class, ie an amp with a FET input or output stage - different mfrs prefer using input or ouput for SS stage. Such an amp has the very real advantages of tubes, but also the low end grunt and control of the best SS amps.

    Although, if your speakers are not too much of a difficult load, an amp such as the re-released McIntosh MC275 for example, is awesome.

    I'm considering giving a more powerful pair of SET amps a go in my system, but they may end up not having the push I like. Given that I listen to a lot of heavy guitar and beat driven music, as well as classical and jazz. I need that boogey factor from an amp. If its not there I lose interest for the most part.

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  12. #12
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    I'm building my own using the legendary McIntosh MC275's schematic. Post another thread when I am done (prob. 2 month later).

  13. #13
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    wow thats impressive. You picked a good schematic. In all honesty, the MC275 is a rollicking good amp, just as long as your speakers are not a very difficult load to drive. Within its power limitations, in terms of musicality the MC275 is up there with the best imo.
    'Lets See what the day brings forth'.... Reginald Iolanthe Perrin

  14. #14
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    How is going shaggy? I do agree the MC275 is one fine amp. It has real grip. As for the original question. It depends on many factors. I can't complain. I run a 40w SET amp and it gives me all the Bass I need.
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    How is going shaggy? I do agree the MC275 is one fine amp. It has real grip. As for the original question. It depends on many factors. I can't complain. I run a 40w SET amp and it gives me all the Bass I need.
    After living with the Counterpoint for a month or so now, my complaints have become observations. Firstly, the Counterpoint is not a true tube amp, it is a hybrid so my original question was skewed.

    My lord man, the midrange is spot on with this amp but only at the loss of deep bass. Everything else is an improvement.

    I just this morning swaped my Danes out for the old Clearfields (early Von Schweikert). The observation is the same. Mids just got better at a loss of deep bass.

    What I have decided to do, is swap the amps and speakers in and out every once in a while to have a different sound.

  16. #16
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Hyfi]After living with the Counterpoint for a month or so now, my complaints have become observations. Firstly, the Counterpoint is not a true tube amp, it is a hybrid so my original question was skewed.

    My lord man, the midrange is spot on with this amp but only at the loss of deep bass. Everything else is an improvement.

    I just this morning swaped my Danes out for the old Clearfields (early Von Schweikert). The observation is the same. Mids just got better at a loss of deep bass.

    What I have decided to do, is swap the amps and speakers in and out every once in a while to have a different sound.[/QUOTE]

    I have been doing that for years. It's also the reason I run three different systems. If you ever have the chance to pick up some horn speakers,do, you should try them with your amp. Sounds like you enjoy your tunes. Bass is also so subjective. I much rather have quality bass than as low as possible LF and lacking definition.
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  17. #17
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    As a hybrid the lack in bass has to be a characteristic of the amp. Can the Clearfields be biamped. You might like the Counterpoint on the top end and your SS amp doing bass.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    As a hybrid the lack in bass has to be a characteristic of the amp. Can the Clearfields be biamped. You might like the Counterpoint on the top end and your SS amp doing bass.
    That has already been suggested by a friend. I plan to give it a shot when my priority list is shorter and I can arrange things to accommodate 2 huge 60lb amps.

    Answering your question from another post- "What is bass slam?"

    To me what I am talking about is the ability to feel it in your bones, not just ears. It's when the glass in your windows rattle and the pictures on the wall are moving.

    If you play the soundtrack to Passenger 57 and your house is not vibrating, there is no bass slam. Thats not to say it's clearer or more detailed, just deep.

  19. #19
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    To me "bass slam" is more of a punchy or hard hitting bass that you can feel. That's the type of bass Krell does. My CJ has ample bass but it's not delivered with that type of hit. You need current to deliver that knock out punch. My Velodyne sub can certainly shake the foundation of my house during certain movie soundtracks but it's definitely not what I'd call bass slam.

    This is where I feel car audio has become a joke. These kids crank up the amp gain to 11 and a bass note, if you can distinguish one, lasts about 5 minutes. All you hear is rumble. Set the gain down and crossover correctly to where it feels like it will snap your spine, that's bass slam.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    To me "bass slam" is more of a punchy or hard hitting bass that you can feel. That's the type of bass Krell does. My CJ has ample bass but it's not delivered with that type of hit. You need current to deliver that knock out punch. My Velodyne sub can certainly shake the foundation of my house during certain movie soundtracks but it's definitely not what I'd call bass slam.

    This is where I feel car audio has become a joke. These kids crank up the amp gain to 11 and a bass note, if you can distinguish one, lasts about 5 minutes. All you hear is rumble. Set the gain down and crossover correctly to where it feels like it will snap your spine, that's bass slam.

    That is what I meant by feeling it in your bones. But, then there is also just the deep LF.

  21. #21
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    One of the hazards of describing sound with words is the difficulty in all people involved knowing and using the same definition of a word. I've often seen the term slam used by reviewers to include more than just those frequencies one hears outside a hoopty with a pair of 15-inch subs in the trunk.

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