Good Amp/Receiver for Drum & Bass Music

[kiwijunglist]

Hi,

I'm looking for a good amp/receiver main stream brand at around US$500.

I am asking for main stream brands eg. onkyo/HK/yamaha/denon/pioneer etc. , because i live in New Zealand and it's hard to get some of the brands over here, i'm thinking of getting something sent over from the states.

I mostly listen to Drum & bass - also a bit of hiphop/trip hop and pop stuff, any suggestions would be most welcome.

[skeptic]

Strange as it may seem, in order to do full justice to reproducing drums, you need a sound system which easly covers the entire audio range. Not only is high frequency reproduction required to reproduce the correct sound of the cymbals and the drumsticks, but even the timbre of a low thwack has much mor high frequency content which defines its musical tone than you might think.

The low frequency impact of drums, basses, pipe organs and even pianos which you hear and to some degree feel is the most expensive part of the audio range to reproduce well. Since your budget is tight, you should consider a powered subwoofer. This is where you will get the most bass for your money. Really good ones unfortunately start at $1000 which is twice your budget. I'd look at Parts Express. They have a one hour kit for $688;

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=300-764

or you might try the slightly cheaper version for $536;

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=300-762

If you must have a receiver, I'd go for a used Marantz from the 1970s/1980s, something like a 2325 with about 125 wpc or greater. These old units had excellent power supplies and were very rugged, two characteristics needed for reliable loud low frequency reproduction. Remember however that you will need an excellent loudspeaker that has the capabilities as well. An excellent amplifier or receiver can't do the job alone.

[skeptic]

You can also consider a Crown CE-1000 power amplifier for $445. You'll find it on Parts Express's web site as well. Crown is owned by Harman International, parent company of Harman Kardon. Crown is known among professionals as an exceptionally fine performing reliable amplifier and is used worldwide in many professionally installed sound systems. Audiophiles generally turn their noses up at it for what are usually illogical reasons. But for $500, you probably won't find a better amplifier at least not new. And it's practically bulletproof.

[RGA]

Hi,

I'm looking for a good amp/receiver main stream brand at around US$500.

I am asking for main stream brands eg. onkyo/HK/yamaha/denon/pioneer etc. , because i live in New Zealand and it's hard to get some of the brands over here, i'm thinking of getting something sent over from the states.

I mostly listen to Drum & bass - also a bit of hiphop/trip hop and pop stuff, any suggestions would be most welcome.

Do you have speakers? What are they?

Also Ask your question on Audio Asylum forums - http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/index.html

[skeptic]

"Also Ask your question on Audio Asylum forums "

If you do, don't be surprised if John Curl or someone tells you about Fermi Velocity or some equally arcane irrelavent nonsense. What makes you think anyone at Audio Asylum knows anything about under $500 equipment. After all, according to PC Tower, we are the Best Buy crowd, not AA. Now if you'd like to hear about equipment over $10,000, that might be the place to go. Peter Qtwerp can tell you about how an 8 watt per channel tube amplifier driving a pair of two way 8 inch AN E exp(ensive) will reproduce deeper better bass than say a JBL paragon for just a few thousand more.

[RGA]

Peter Q backs up what he says - He already showed the disbelieving B&W designer's and other makers/individuals. Peter's design team? - Well if engineers from competitors keep saying it can't be done that's fine with Audio Note. They obviously are not smart enough to work for Audio Note.

And as for going to AA - afraid of alternate opinions? Afraid you will be exposed as a fraud - or an incompetant? Yes it is obvious you are afraid to allow someone to get an alternate opinion - pleny of discussion there is on sub $500.00 gear - plenty of posts are not answered by John Curl. So in fact you're already proving yourself wrong on the claims you make about that forum so it stands to reason you're wrong about your technical advice.

[skeptic]

"Afraid you will be exposed as a fraud - or an incompetant? Yes it is obvious you are afraid to allow someone to get an alternate opinion - pleny of discussion there is on sub $500.00 gear - plenty of posts are not answered by John Curl."

Those are not MY KIND OF PEOPLE. I feel much more at home here.

John Curl has said he will not even talk to people who are NOT degreed engineers. He would talk to me. I on the other hand, will not talk to him. He and his kind do not have the intellectual capacity to engage me in sufficiently interesting dialogue to hold my interest.

As for Peter Qtwerp, what does he offer our contributor from down under? Silver wire to upgrade an 8 inch two way 20 year old design his employees tweaked? Would I work for Qtwerp? Since he is dumb enough to hire people who never have to show up or do anything and still draw a paycheck, why not? He steals his customer's money, I'd steal his. After all, isn't that what you are subsidizing when you buy his product. Will it get better? Read the proposed EU constitution lately?

[markw]

You're gonna want a unit with gobs of power on reserve. Your type of music is almost as demanding as hip hop, what with those bass drums and such. Actually , when you factor in the twinkling highs, it might even be more demanding.

Since you are somewhat related to the UK, I'd recommend the most powerful NAD amp (not receiver) you can find. All HT receivers tend to lack real world power when compared to two channel amps in the same price range, particularly in your price range.

[RGA]

Since he lives in Great Britain and his market is there then it stands to reason he would have his business there. Any American and Canadian maker must also be a horses ass for not building everything in China to reduce prices by 90%.

And even then he is moving his operations to Canada to reduce costs and pricing. Things don't happen instantaneously and he could build in China - but then he doesn't want a company large enough that he has no direct control over. Ask him why - do your own homework about his prior company and how much money he has. He doesn't NEED to run this company - it is a passion - If Harman tomorrow felt they could make $1.00 more per year in net profit selling Gum Ball machines they would turn to that in one second. Peter has said often that he could easily make more money doing other things than running Audio Note - and has done.

You attack his product without hearing them so you totally fail as an audiophile - you lie because John Curl has talked to me and I have no degree - and plenty of other people without a degree. John Curl is one of hundreds of people on that forum. Why don't you try other engineers - or do you base everyone there off of what John Curl and JR says?

You're claims about degreed engineers and their intellectual capacity - well most engineers I have met are arrogant and think they know everything about all subjects when in fact they should stick to engineering. But I would trust an actual doctor over some guy who thinks he knows a lot because he read some medical journals - thanks the degree has some checks and balances to make sure they know what they're talking about. The enginners are there as a check on YOU. And if they say you are wrong instead of engaging them you come to this forum and say they don't know anything. Now how should people take that? Skeptic knows more than all the engineers because he says so? And if you were a genius like an Einstein then you would get an honorary degree in the field - you would take your speaker design and it would go over like gangbusters.

20 year old design? How old is your AR 9 buddy and how old is the 901? Why does the design HAVE TO BE 2 weeks old to get your support? Why does it have to have 15 drivers+ in order to have bass? Answer = They don't - a good designer knows that. And besides the AN box design is 60 years old.

You always bring up cost - you obviously don't get it - running a company requires things like mark-ups and profit margins. Please tell me your AR9 and Bose 901 were run by companies who were not for profit companies. Tell me Bose is one of the best in the business for giving you the most cost in actual parts versus the price they sell the speaker at.

[skeptic]

How about 275 wpc into 8 ohms, 450 wpc into 4 ohms, 560 wpc into 2 ohms. How about 900 watts bridged mono into 8 ohms, 1100 watts bridged mono into 4 ohms. How about Down 0.2 db at 20 hz and 20 khz. Not from some flakey consumer audio brand but from a company which has had to maintain its reputation among professionals for over 35 years.

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....Page_ID=133#ce

And if you download the specs and read them carefully, you get an actual phone number to call for technical support, presumably with a live human being on it at the other end.......eventually anyway.

[kiwijunglist]

Hi

I currently have ProLab speakers not sure of the model bumber they have 2 x 7 or 8" drivers. i'm thinking of buying some new speakers maybe Jamo E650's or B&W 602.5 S3's or Infinity 412s (NZ Made) or Wharfedale Pacific Evo 30s.

I've been looking at rotel RA-01 amp, only 30w / channel tho.
(supposed to have quite a bit of bass, and quite punchy sound which is good for hiphop/drum & bass)
Also NAD T742 (i think can't remember the model #)
also looked at the Yamaha RX-V640 , because it sounds good for a 5 ch amp, and is about the same price as the rotel below. sounds quite nice with the Evo30s.

things are more expensive over here in NZ. Rotel RA-01 is about NZ$900 (~500US).
the speakers i've been looking at above are about NZ$1000 (600US).

i don't think parts express delivery to new zealand. i notice that www.abesofmaine.com deliver to NZ but they don't seem to have much in the way of 2 channel amps.

I'm looking at buying new gear probably because it's hard to get second hand gear over here.

[kiwijunglist]

You're gonna want a unit with gobs of power on reserve. Your type of music is almost as demanding as hip hop, what with those bass drums and such. Actually , when you factor in the twinkling highs, it might even be more demanding.

Since you are somewhat related to the UK, I'd recommend the most powerful NAD amp (not receiver) you can find. All HT receivers tend to lack real world power when compared to two channel amps in the same price range, particularly in your price range.

Thanks for the recommendation. i've heard that the low end nad amps cut off the bass range, and i'm better of going with rotel, have you heard of rotel?

[markw]

I have a 200 wpc Rotel 991 B. I also have an 80 wpc NAD 214. I got the Rotel to replace the NAD only after upgrading to Magnapan 1.6 speakers, a notorious watt hog.

I never noticed a lack of bass with the NAD. Had been looking for a 225 wpc NAD 218 to replace the 214, but the Rotel had been a demo and came in at a much lower price.

I don't think you'll regret the NAD unless you are easily swayed by other people's opinions.

[skeptic]

Since you posted on this thread RGA, I assume you have something to contribute besides diatribes and insults. So what does Qtwerp have to offer kiwijunglist for $500? I'll bet the answer is NOTHING. And what could he sell me for $5000? Same answer. Just like the phony cable guys.

kiwijunglist, if you have a fine speaker that can produce excellent bass but needs a high power amplifier to get the job done, get the Crown amplifier. If you don't, put the Parts Express subwoofer kit together for an hour's worth of work. That's how you will get the most for your $500 IMO. Forget about Qtwerp. It's just pie in the sky.

[skeptic]

If you are manufacturing in the EU for sale on the world market, you are at an unbelievable disadvantage. Workers in the EU get 5 weeks paid vacation. You can't fire them. They can go on sick leave forever and still get paid. They have a cradle to grave social safety net which they can never lose. There is a ticking demographic time bomb where the native populations of most EU countries are getting older rapidly and will be on pension soon. The bureaucracies are enormous and while the one in London faces the electorate periodically, the one in Brussels is completely unaccountable and lives high off the hog on the best food, and in the best hotels Europe has to offer. It's like being on a perpetual luxury vacation at the taxpayers expense. When you buy something manufactured in the EU, this is what you subsidize. If you are huge and powerful, you can get some relief like Ford Motor Company did when they threatened to pull the entire Jaguar operation and thousands of jobs with it out of Britain but if you are stuck there, you've got big trouble competing outside the EU.

Is Peter Qtwerp moving to Canada so he can oversee his operation? Canada is an improvement but it is hardly the best choice. The US has the world's most productive labor force. China probably has the cheapest. Mexico right across the border probably isn't a bad choice either if you want to tap into the huge US market. Or you might try the Phillipines or Thailand. If you are in business, you look for the most efficient way to make your products and hire local people you train, trust, and monitor. If you are a dilettante selling equipment one year, manufacturing it another, and if that doesn't work out maybe importing ladies shoes the next, I'm not your customer. I want to buy from people who are in it for the long haul and want to make money by competing.

Peter Qtwerp, if you want to sell to me, clean up your act, drop your prices 90%, let me hear your products next to other peoples in a store near where I live and maybe I'll consider it. Otherwise, you will have to pursue your hobby without my subsidy.

[RGA]

AN is actually doing something smart - they will have the actual dealers - the stores build the product on site(cuts out any manufacturing facility - middle man and overhead which shifts onto the dealer). Soundhounds is a retailer with a shop and qualified people - they will build it there. Some dealers can't that's fine - The DAC's are already built in Canada and the U.S.

B&W and all other European makers have the same problems but start putting your money where you mouth is and provide me some US made speakers I should be listening to that will beat what AN is offerring. You only talk of your own DIY Bose and AR speakers.

You don't like the fact they're not in you're area - well that's fine McDonalds is everywhere too so that must mean they're the height of fine dining. Eat your McDonald's and listen to your mcBose for all I care. Bose is everywhere which must mean they're the best right?

You didn't answer the arguments put forth to you about the cost/price relation of Bose or any other current American built speaker. America never runs businesses at a profit of course. Get real. Audio Note is run from Passion first - Harman is run by beancounters.

And Audio Note has ~$500.00US speaker offerrings. Audio Note WANTS you to hear their products against ANYONE elses gear. There are shows like the CES that come around in the U.S. He is at all of those - and showing the competition that their 'more complex' boxes invariably yield worse results. There are 25 dealers in North America and this will likely increase the more people listen to his speakers versus anyone elses at three times the price.

I'm sorry they are not in every Best Buy - you may want to buy the JBL McNorthridge for $799 and get your McSoundQuality to go with it and an order of Freedom Fries.

$5000.00? Where's the challenge?

[skeptic]

"AN is actually doing something smart - they will have the actual dealers - the stores build the product on site(cuts out any manufacturing facility - middle man and overhead which shifts onto the dealer). "

Oh that really cinches it. Joe Blow's 17 year old kid who is working for the summer is going to assemble my $5000 pair of speakers? What kind of crap is that. No quality control over the finished product at the factory? No inspections? No testing? No two alike? There goes that claim of 0.2 db match out the window. Frankly I never bought it anyway. Will they be assembling amplfiers, turntables and the rest of his line too? That may look smart now but when they start coming back for repairs it won't look so good.

If this equipment was so superior, not only would every dealer be fighting to distribute it but they would probably be bought out by a Harman International, a Phillips or somebody else who would turn it into a first class operation. I'm not traveling 120 miles round trip to downtown Manhattan to hear them. If they can't come closer to me, then I just have to as New Yorkers say FEGGEDDABOUDIT !

[RGA]

Firstly, this isn't set in stone - and Soundhounds has 17 year old non professionals there eh?

Don't believe in .2db matching? Why is this hard? Maybe you should get some and measure them. Why not buy em and have them measured.

And why would you presume no quality control? Audio Note sells Kits presumably people all over the world build them. Most speakers are built by some 13year old girl in China or your American sweatshops your gov't turns a blind eye too. Alla your California fruit.

Whatever you talk about a product you have not heard you still can't come up with any competition. Do enjoy your Blose system and let opthers enjoy what they have.

[skeptic]

"Most speakers are built by some 13year old girl in China or your American sweatshops your gov't turns a blind eye too. Alla your California fruit."

What, no sweat shops in Canada? No sweat shops in London? Don't Canadians eat California fruit? Want to pay what they pay in Europe for produce? For meat? I lived in what is now the EU. A Euro doesn't go very far.

[RGA]

"Most speakers are built by some 13year old girl in China or your American sweatshops your gov't turns a blind eye too. Alla your California fruit."

What, no sweat shops in Canada? No sweat shops in London? Don't Canadians eat California fruit? Want to pay what they pay in Europe for produce? For meat? I lived in what is now the EU. A Euro doesn't go very far.

Not government approved sweatshops like California. The previous governor was trying to pass a bill to allow fruit pickers(Mexican illegal aliens) to be able to attain driver's licences to get to work. But oh no they are not citizens. Sure they can work and pick oranges for .30 a day because no American would do that dirty work - so they just turn a blind eye to the horrid treatment - but the economy - such that California's economy goes - goes on.

Canada does get California fruit - apathy occurs everywhere. It's a shame more Canadians don't do their homework on products from irresponsible humanitarian companies - even when word does get out and is in all the papers people continue to by Fords and Nike shoes. People say "well they all do it." It's a shame because in fact no they don't all do it.

I don't eat California fruit because the strawberries here taste a helluva lot better and are not homrone injected tasteless garbage. I pay a premium - but if a student can afford to pay a premium on such items so can everyone else. Not smoking allows a lot of extra cash to buy home grown cherries, peaches, corn, apples, strawberries etc.

Europeans get paid in Euro's - while some things are expensive other things are dirt cheap.

Surely you are not implying that since their costs are so high that all British and European speakers when they get to America are overpriced are you? It can ONLY be overpriced if the American/Canadian counterpart is offerring better for less money. As the Brits would say "Not bloody likely."

[piece-it pete]

Hi,

I'm looking for a good amp/receiver main stream brand at around US$500.

I am asking for main stream brands eg. onkyo/HK/yamaha/denon/pioneer etc. , because i live in New Zealand and it's hard to get some of the brands over here, i'm thinking of getting something sent over from the states.

I mostly listen to Drum & bass - also a bit of hiphop/trip hop and pop stuff, any suggestions would be most welcome.

kiwi,

I checked eBay New Zealand and I have to admit, there's not a lot on there yet .

If you want to rock the suggestions put forth are very good. I currently run a vintage Marantz 1152dc, rated at 76 wpc, that will smoke a lot of new gear with higher wattage claims, in a similar price range. It has the added advantage of sounding quite good at lower volumes, as well. I found a 2330b on eBay (130 wpc) willing to ship worldwide (with killer feedback):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...705740668&rd=1

though there's no recent sales to guess the final sell price. Now is the slow time on eBay and you might end up with a better deal than usual.

There has GOT to be a place out your way that sells pro gear.

There's some kiwis that frequent AudioKarma.org, maybe one of them has some spare equipment, I would ask.

I would think in your price range you'll end up with something good, just take your time, don't settle too quickly.

Good Luck!!

Pete

PS - What is "trip hop" ??

[skeptic]

If California were a separate country, its economy would be larger than all but about four or five others in the world, and I'm almost certain much larger than Canada's. While the government may turn a blind eye to illegal aliens working there, they are not "sanctioned." President Bush's immigration proposal would change that granting them rights that would frankly make them undesirable employees. Nobody forces illegal aliens from Mexico, the far east, eastern Europe, Canada or anywhere else to come to America to work under conditions that are unfavorable or otherwise. We just can't keep them out. And unless they have committed a crime that they are being held for or wanted for, they are always welcome to leave, back to Mexico, Canada or anywhere else as far as most Americans are concerned.

You who live in Canada or anywhere else can pontificate about how awful this underground economy is while you enjoy the fruits of it literally. The economies of Mexico and other countries actually depend on it. You don't like California strawberries? Grow your own. It's not hard.

Just do me one favor. Next time Quebec threatens to secede from Canada, get a petition up for once and beg your provincial government NOT to apply for statehood. We have enough problems here as it is. BTW, when you come to Disneyland or Disney World, you will also enjoy the fruits of illegal alien labor. It directly and indirectly pervades the entire American economy. And don't think Canada doesn't benefit from it too.

[kiwijunglist]

Hi

I've decided to go with the NAD C352 Integrated Amp (NZ $999)
and a pair of either Mission M34 or M35 Speakers. (NZ $1199 / 1599)