Tube vs Solid State?

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  • 12-04-2003, 12:44 PM
    300A
    Is this a high end forum?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by FLZapped
    PLease show any data that support the idea that the sound changes substantially in this configuration.



    Really, I guess you also missed that paralleling capacitors will help mitigate the effect, no? Granted it may not be ideal, but it isn't disasterous, either.

    -Bruce

    Only mitigate the effect? Still very poor compared to the good components. Definitely not ideal and is disasteous if you are into really good audio.

    By the way, me, my friends, everyone I know who have tested have come to the same conclusion. Electrolytic capacitors alter the sound alot. That is my data. If you don't like it, too bad. Prove to me that DBT tests are factual, proof.
  • 12-04-2003, 12:47 PM
    300A
    My mistake
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Now you're squirming....you made no mention of brand in your original assertion.

    -Bruce

    if this is a PA forum or low/midfi forum. I thought this was a high end forum.

    My apologies.
  • 12-04-2003, 12:57 PM
    300A
    In the DIY world
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by FLZapped
    PLease show any data that support the idea that the sound changes substantially in this configuration.



    Really, I guess you also missed that paralleling capacitors will help mitigate the effect, no? Granted it may not be ideal, but it isn't disasterous, either.

    -Bruce

    after much testing by lots of us, you don't use electrolytic capacitors in the signal path. Films are bad enough and electrolytics are many times worse sounding.

    Are you after the best sound, or so so sound? Isn't this a high end forum, or low/mid end audio forum.

    Paralleling capacitors will help with the DF problems, but not the DA problems as the impedances aren't changed.
  • 12-04-2003, 12:57 PM
    300A
    You mentioned it, not me.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Oh wow, now you're a mind reader as well...... :p

    -Bruce

    We are dealing with high end equipment on this forum aren't we? You mentioned it, not me. Remember this is a high end forum.
  • 12-04-2003, 01:08 PM
    300A
    Inexperienced are we?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Really.......

    "Some people just refuse to learn. No SS amps use capacitor outputs, and if they did, they sure would NOT use electrolytics.
    And SS doesn't need output transformers. Your making no sense."

    In high end components. This is a place to learn the best, isn't it? Or are we pushing mediocrity as good components? Some things are implied as this is a high end forum isn't it?

    "Tubes can't use capacitor outputs unless in an OTL or Cyclotron designs. The current capabilities are too low and the output Z is too high. And if one uses a cap on the output of an OTL, it is for disaster protection, not because of the sonics. And even then Polys would be the choice, not electrolytics.



    I don't see any such mention.

    -Bruce

    Again, this is a high end forum isn't it? Some things are implied. However, for the newby, amplifier output electrolytic capacitors are only used in lowfi, PA applications. Not in highend applicatons. The examples that FL mentions are lowfi circuits. The "new Zen" uses two electrolytic caps in the circuit path, a very poor application in my opinion.
  • 12-05-2003, 08:03 AM
    FLZapped
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 300A
    Again, this is a high end forum isn't it? Some things are implied. However, for the newby, amplifier output electrolytic capacitors are only used in lowfi, PA applications. Not in highend applicatons. The examples that FL mentions are lowfi circuits. The "new Zen" uses two electrolytic caps in the circuit path, a very poor application in my opinion.

    Really? I see no words in the title that say high-end only. You're squirmin' dude, ya just can't admit you essentially opened your mouth and inserted your foot into it, can you? :rolleyes:

    -Bruce
  • 12-05-2003, 08:19 AM
    FLZapped
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 300A
    Only mitigate the effect? Still very poor compared to the good components. Definitely not ideal and is disasteous if you are into really good audio.

    By the way, me, my friends, everyone I know who have tested have come to the same conclusion. Electrolytic capacitors alter the sound alot. That is my data. If you don't like it, too bad. Prove to me that DBT tests are factual, proof.


    Actually, this is getting away from your original assertion that output coupling caps are not used in SS amps. Design philosophy is another topic.

    However, you just can't seem to admit that you made a blanket statement regarding their usage and are squirming and trying to divert the discussion so you won't have to own up to the fact that indeed there are designs that use them and your blanket statement was, and is, wholly incorrect.

    -Bruce
  • 12-05-2003, 09:04 AM
    Mwalsdor_cscc_edu
    Quote:

    Again, this is a high end forum isn't it? Some things are implied.
    Having participated on this forum for a number of years I'd have to disagree that this is a Hi-End Audio forum. No disrepect intended but there are many more questions about receivers and HT than serious inquiries into Hi-End gear. I suppose we need to clarify the term. As to your next statement, that is pretty scary really, and especially so on this forum. While many of the regulars are familiar with me, and I them, we may gloss over things a bit as they have been discussed many times. Though I've always found it aggravating but necessary that I do not assume my POV or statements made were understood or "anything implied". All this accomplishes is misinformation or misrepresentation. Aggravating to deal with but that's the "house rules". And as you move from one forum to another the "rules of engagement" change.

    MikE
  • 12-05-2003, 10:01 AM
    300A
    I understand
    Mwalsdor_cscc_edu, my apologies to both. I see from your statement that those with HT etc. post here.

    Assumptions can cause confusion, my apologies, but my intentions were the best.

    But I must state that no high end SS components us electrolytic caps as output coupling caps in the best gear, or even midfi gear.

    And nobody is squirming FL, LOL, how you can make a big deal out of this is beyond me. Who cares??
  • 12-05-2003, 01:43 PM
    Mwalsdor_cscc_edu
    Nothing to apologize
    I was just trying to be helpful. Some people will go to no end to find a falsehood in anything we post. I think if people weren't so dogmatic and willing to look further than the lenght of their noses we would have a more enjoyable and educational forum.

    Rule Number One: It's not about music or audio... it's ALL about winning. Welcome to AR!

    MikE
  • 12-05-2003, 04:34 PM
    Beckman
    Tube vs. Solid State
    There is nothing tubes can do that solid state can't due, except:

    When a Soviet pilot defected with his MiG-25 to Japan in 1976, U.S. military officials were stunned when they examined what they thought was the most advanced fighter jet in the world. The Russians, it turned out, were still using old-fashioned vacuum tubes instead of state-of-the-art transistors and computer chips. For all their vaunted military reputation, the Soviets seemed incredibly backward. Eventually though, it dawned on the Americans that the Soviets had figured out the old tubes would be less vulnerable to the electro-magnetic pulse of a nuclear blast than some newer components.

    <http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/jul2001/nf2001079_954.htm>

    Tube audio equipment can survive the electomagnetic energy released from a large nuclear reaction.
  • 12-05-2003, 05:20 PM
    300A
    Not everything
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Beckman
    There is nothing tubes can do that solid state can't due, except:

    When a Soviet pilot defected with his MiG-25 to Japan in 1976, U.S. military officials were stunned when they examined what they thought was the most advanced fighter jet in the world. The Russians, it turned out, were still using old-fashioned vacuum tubes instead of state-of-the-art transistors and computer chips. For all their vaunted military reputation, the Soviets seemed incredibly backward. Eventually though, it dawned on the Americans that the Soviets had figured out the old tubes would be less vulnerable to the electro-magnetic pulse of a nuclear blast than some newer components.

    <http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/jul2001/nf2001079_954.htm>

    Tube audio equipment can survive the electomagnetic energy released from a large nuclear reaction.

    Having listened to alot of both the best SS and tube components, the SS components always seem to be veiled and some inner detail is missing when compared to the good tube components.

    To me, tubes give a sense of realism, not only with accurate timbre, but the inner detail, that extra dimension that SS just doesn't do.
  • 12-05-2003, 06:46 PM
    bturk667
    Chevy!!!
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by topspeed
    Nothing like a good blood feud to warm up the new forum. How 'bout we debate Ford vs. Chevy now?

    F= found
    O= on
    R= road
    D= dead

    F= fixed
    O= or
    R= repaired
    D= daily
  • 12-05-2003, 10:49 PM
    topspeed
    That figures!
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bturk667
    F= found
    O= on
    R= road
    D= dead

    F= fixed
    O= or
    R= repaired
    D= daily

    Bturk you're killin' me dude! First you're a Sooner and now you like Chevy! Next thing you'll tell me is you're a Yankee fan and you'll win the Trifecta!

    I actually have no problem with Chevy. It's GM I have no respect for. How can the largest corporation in the world with its vast supplier base and near limitless engineering resources still put out that crap like RGA's Grand Am, the Cavalier, and just about every single other appliance with four wheels? With the possible exception of their trucks and the Corvette, there isn't one car they make that can stand up to the imports. Think about it, you've got the Accord, Camry...and the Malibu??? That's a clean sheet design and they still screwed it up! Oh man I'd better stop, my blood pressure is rising...

    Two words:

    Ford GT
  • 12-06-2003, 12:59 AM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by topspeed
    Bturk you're killin' me dude! First you're a Sooner and now you like Chevy! Next thing you'll tell me is you're a Yankee fan and you'll win the Trifecta!

    I actually have no problem with Chevy. It's GM I have no respect for. How can the largest corporation in the world with its vast supplier base and near limitless engineering resources still put out that crap like RGA's Grand Am, the Cavalier, and just about every single other appliance with four wheels? With the possible exception of their trucks and the Corvette, there isn't one car they make that can stand up to the imports. Think about it, you've got the Accord, Camry...and the Malibu??? That's a clean sheet design and they still screwed it up! Oh man I'd better stop, my blood pressure is rising...

    Two words:

    Ford GT

    Toyota is catching up...people like me figure it out after we get burned once. I will NEVER if I can at all help it, buy a vehicle from the big three. Actually they are not the big 3 Toyota has passed both Ford and Chrysler. TheLemon Aid called the Focus one of the worst cars ever made(or to this effect) in the 2004 used car guide. It was hilarious though I felt sorry for the poor shmucks anectodal stories. Atrocious car...look at all the great reviews it got by the heavily advertised magazines???

    In my 1996 used car guide the ONLY GMs that got a recommendation were the Sprint and the Camaro. The Sprint is actually a Suzuki that GM puts a body on. The Camaro was noted to have lots of problems but for what it is it was reasonably cheap.

    And my Dad's story with his V10 Dodge Ram...ick.

    Sooner or later the big three are going to crumble to the Japanese )and the Koreans)...2 down... Pretty sad when Hyundai entry levels are better built cars than Cadillacs and Lincolns...two expensive pieces of utter garbage.
  • 12-06-2003, 06:42 AM
    DMK
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 300A
    Having listened to alot of both the best SS and tube components, the SS components always seem to be veiled and some inner detail is missing when compared to the good tube components.

    To me, tubes give a sense of realism, not only with accurate timbre, but the inner detail, that extra dimension that SS just doesn't do.

    Agreed. Live music is the barometer I go by when choosing gear and, to some extent, recordings. Recordings are somewhat exempt because I'm at the mercy of the recording engineer and better to have the music in my home in some fashion than not at all. Tubes sound closer to live music to my ears.

    Once again, I realize we are still a long way from being able to reproduce live music in the home. But my system is a lot closer than I ever imagined possible, particularly when LP's are spinning. As a tubes and vinyl fanatic, it's plain that I don't worship at the altar of measurements. I think they are important just as the first few chapters of a novel are important. But they don't tell the whole story.
  • 12-06-2003, 06:55 AM
    DMK
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mwalsdor_cscc_edu
    . I think if people weren't so dogmatic and willing to look further than the lenght of their noses we would have a more enjoyable and educational forum. MikE


    Hey, MikEy!

    I agree with that statement to a point. I guess I think that A/R also needs the pragmatists to give us the other side of the story and it's helpful to me that many of them are so unerring in their support of their own POV's. I've learned a lot from such people, just as I have learned a lot from folks like yourself, RGA, and many others on the more subjective side of the slate. I've grown a lot in my thinking in the last 3 years that I've posted on A/R. I'm still a tubes/vinyl/measurements are only part of the story guy as I was when I started here but I've learn to ask more questions about why certain things behave or hit me as they do rather than blind acceptance. On the other hand, a statement such as "tubes or vinyl measure less well than their counterparts and therefore they are crap" tells me that those making such claims have no experience with what they're complaining about but are merely worshipping at the altar of measurements.

    The real truth about audio lies somewhere in the middle of the two extreme POV's, objectivity and subjectivity. But rather than worry about either side too much, I simply buy what sounds most like live music to me and too bad if I don't fall solidly into either camp. If it makes "music", I'll like it. If it satisfies the measurements crowd and sounds like garbage, well... I don't have much use for it.

    Keep the music playing, MikE! Right now I'm playing Glenn Branca's "Symphony #1 -Tonal Plexus" which gives an audio system one heck of a workout (not to mention my ears and brain!) :)
  • 12-06-2003, 08:01 AM
    Beckman
    Tubes
    Inner detail, warmth, emotion, some of the words used to describe he destorion that tube amplifiers produce, yes they sound different, but I will take an expensive solid state amp over an expensive tube amp any day. I bet if you smoked a joint while listening to a clock radio you would here: inner detail, warmth, and emotion.
  • 12-06-2003, 10:29 AM
    DMK
    [QUOTE=Beckman]Inner detail, warmth, emotion, some of the words used to describe he destorion that tube amplifiers produce, QUOTE]


    Yes, but "glare, grain, edginess" are some of the words used to describe the distortion that solid state amps produce. Since all amps distort, I prefer the ones that do so in a manner consonant with the music rather than dissonant.

    I haven't smoked a joint in almost 25 years. The main sound I'd probably hear in that case is an ambulance! :)
  • 12-06-2003, 12:45 PM
    RGA
    [QUOTE=DMK]
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Beckman
    Inner detail, warmth, emotion, some of the words used to describe he destorion that tube amplifiers produce, QUOTE]


    Yes, but "glare, grain, edginess" are some of the words used to describe the distortion that solid state amps produce. Since all amps distort, I prefer the ones that do so in a manner consonant with the music rather than dissonant.

    I haven't smoked a joint in almost 25 years. The main sound I'd probably hear in that case is an ambulance! :)

    DMK. I noticed you mentioned using Live music as a barometer which is a good one...one I also go by. But have you read the Qvortrup Essay on the Audio Note site regarding "Comparison by Contrast." I think he is onto something that a speaker or system should contrast the albums you put on rather than homogenize everything. I can't post the entire essay as it would probably be copywritten but click on their site - scroll down to Audio Note philosophy and choose the essay that says "Are You on the Road to Audio Hell?"

    He discusses some of the pitfalls of comparing to references when recording to other discs is perhaps more of a teller. If one disc has a tiny soundstage and one is big one has a voice center right one has it way back then you have an "accurate" speaker/componant because it is TELLING you about all of these differences. Many a product don't. http://www.audionote.co.uk/
  • 12-06-2003, 01:02 PM
    FLZapped
    Another variant.....
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bturk667
    F= found
    O= on
    R= road
    D= dead

    F= fixed
    O= or
    R= repaired
    D= daily

    Try this one....

    Found On Road Dead so Driver Returns On Foot

    -Bruce
  • 12-06-2003, 02:11 PM
    300A
    Interesting
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Beckman
    Inner detail, warmth, emotion, some of the words used to describe he destorion that tube amplifiers produce, yes they sound different, but I will take an expensive solid state amp over an expensive tube amp any day. I bet if you smoked a joint while listening to a clock radio you would here: inner detail, warmth, and emotion.

    Read an article and checked out the depth of tube and SS amps. Used a soundstage mapping recording. Interesting the SS amps didn't have near the accurate depth the tube amps did, althought there was some overlapping. And how does distortion produce the sound reflections, little nuisances in a recording? Distortion obviously doesn't do it. And SS doesn't do it.

    So you smoke joints when listening to music? Otherwise how would you know.
  • 12-06-2003, 02:13 PM
    300A
    Wow.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    DMK. I noticed you mentioned using Live music as a barometer which is a good one...one I also go by. But have you read the Qvortrup Essay on the Audio Note site regarding "Comparison by Contrast." I think he is onto something that a speaker or system should contrast the albums you put on rather than homogenize everything. I can't post the entire essay as it would probably be copywritten but click on their site - scroll down to Audio Note philosophy and choose the essay that says "Are You on the Road to Audio Hell?"

    He discusses some of the pitfalls of comparing to references when recording to other discs is perhaps more of a teller. If one disc has a tiny soundstage and one is big one has a voice center right one has it way back then you have an "accurate" speaker/componant because it is TELLING you about all of these differences. Many a product don't. http://www.audionote.co.uk/



    RGA, I am sure I read something like that somewhere else too. Its been a few years ago, but someone also mentioned using different kinds of music to test for common problems.
  • 12-06-2003, 03:51 PM
    DMK
    [QUOTE=RGA]. But have you read the Qvortrup Essay on the Audio Note site regarding "Comparison by Contrast." I think he is onto something that a speaker or system should contrast the albums you put on rather than homogenize everything.

    I'll give it a read in a bit. It looks interesting. It does help to know your recordings intimately but I have to admit I've never taken a disc with me of music I disliked to audition gear! :)
  • 12-06-2003, 04:09 PM
    Beckman
    I did
    So you smoke joints when listening to music? Otherwise how would you know.[/QUOTE]

    Last time I smoked was May 24, 2002 at about 2 pm.

    I just think that if you are listening to a tube amp and expect it to sound better than solid state it will.