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Tube pre-amp with ss amp?
I have been intrigued by the tube sound for a while (I remember what they sound like from my childhood years), but I only upgraded to a Musical Fidelity amp driven by a Rotel pre-amp a couple of years ago. On the whole, I'm happy with this set up, but for some types of music, ie classical vocal, violin etc, I wonder if I would get a warmer sound if I introduced tubes? I don't have the money to change the whole set up, or to set up an alternative system, but thought I might experiment with a tubed pre-amp just for certain uses.
Has anybody else mated a ss amp with a tube pre-amp? Is this a successful comination?
Thanks.
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Since 1981 or so I've been using a tube preamp with various SS and tube power amps. Using the tubes as early as possible in the chain is the way to go. It's the best way to get that "tube" sound. :cool:
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Tube/SS combo is a commonly done configuration. In fact, it isn't hard to find integrated hybrids that do this. It is also pretty well accepted that preamps aren't Rotels strong suit.
As you look for a tube preamp check the output impedance, the lower the better for use with SS. I'd have to research again but if memory serves you want below 500 ohms. What price are you looking for? I have a Conrad-Johnson PV14ls2 which new is about $2,500.00 and I think it is incredible for the money. There are several good tube preamps in this price but C-J is the only one I found that offers remote and it's variety of input and outputs. You can find older C-J models on Audiogon for under $1k. Again, be sure to ask the seller or Google the model to check for features, you'd be surprised at how many tube preamps do not come with a remote. I like tubes but I'm not willing to get off the couch every time I want to adjust the volume.
A couple of other options would be to try the Musical Fidelity tube buffer or possibly adding a tube DAC. A very good one I see going cheap used is the EAD 7000 something, I don't remember the exact model but it's the only one with 7000. Also, you can raise your systems sound a level by using a quality interconnect between amp/preamp/sources if you don't already. From brands like Transparent, Audio Quest, MIT, Cardas etc. Notice I didn't say Monster.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Tube/SS combo is a commonly done configuration. In fact, it isn't hard to find integrated hybrids that do this. It is also pretty well accepted that preamps aren't Rotels strong suit.
As you look for a tube preamp check the output impedance, the lower the better for use with SS. I'd have to research again but if memory serves you want below 500 ohms. What price are you looking for? I have a Conrad-Johnson PV14ls2 which new is about $2,500.00 and I think it is incredible for the money. There are several good tube preamps in this price but C-J is the only one I found that offers remote and it's variety of input and outputs. You can find older C-J models on Audiogon for under $1k. Again, be sure to ask the seller or Google the model to check for features, you'd be surprised at how many tube preamps do not come with a remote. I like tubes but I'm not willing to get off the couch every time I want to adjust the volume.
A couple of other options would be to try the Musical Fidelity tube buffer or possibly adding a tube DAC. A very good one I see going cheap used is the EAD 7000 something, I don't remember the exact model but it's the only one with 7000. Also, you can raise your systems sound a level by using a quality interconnect between amp/preamp/sources if you don't already. From brands like Transparent, Audio Quest, MIT, Cardas etc. Notice I didn't say Monster.
Thanks Mr. Peabody. I'm currently looking around for a replacement preamp. I prefer tubes and want remote volume and theater bypass. My current ARC has only the tubes end covered. I'll now be checking out CJ's PV14. Although I was looking to spend ~$2500 on a used unit I have no particular objection to new.:cool:
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Thank you kindly.
I have not set a specific budget for this, and I'm not in a hurry because at the moment my funds are low, and need to save. Your point about the remote is a good one - my previous pre did not have it and it was a pain having to jump up each time the volume needed adjusting. The output impedence question I would not have even thought to consider if you had not metioned it - thanks for that also.
Both your replies have encouraged me to investigate this possibility further. I always suspected that the Rotel was a weak link. In addition, when funds are available, I intend to get a dedicated CD player as well - I now have two DVD sources, but I don't think they do CDs full justice.
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Hi, as the guys said it is done often. One tube pre that is very nice is the Manley Shrimp.
Heard it last week driving a pair of ss Mono amps. Fine sound.
Good Luck with your search.
Peace
Bernd:16:
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So...
...hmmm...if you put the tubed gear in early in the game and pass it through a SS amp, you still get the "tube" sound?
It would seem that no specific sound, non-coloration, straight wire with gain, also known as High Fidelity, is the forte' of solid state?
jimHJJ(...is that about right?...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...hmmm...if you put the tubed gear in early in the game and pass it through a SS amp, you still get the "tube" sound?
It would seem that no specific sound, non-coloration, straight wire with gain, also known as High Fidelity, is the forte' of solid state?
jimHJJ(...is that about right?...)
Try it. You might like it.:ihih:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...hmmm...if you put the tubed gear in early in the game and pass it through a SS amp, you still get the "tube" sound?
Audio systems are cumulative pipelines of multiple gain stages. You don't necessarily have to change all the gain stages in order to hear improvements. Especially for those who listen to vinyl (I think that includes you), using a high quality tube pre for the first 60 to 70 db of gain can do wonders. Like Joe SP-9, I've been using tube Audio Research preamps for twenty five years.
With my vintage system, I got better results when I replaced the SS op amp output from a Pioneer PD-54 CDP with a Manley DAC having a tube line stage that drives the SS Threshold amp directly.
On the other hand, I use the tube (actually hybrid) ARC pre in the main system only when playing vinyl. I see no need to use a 12 db gain stage just to attenuate the signal. With the CDP, I use precision attenuators instead directly to the tube amps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
It would seem that no specific sound, non-coloration, straight wire with gain, also known as High Fidelity, is the forte' of solid state?
With a few notable exceptions, that has certainly NOT been my experience. Most solid state lacks the harmonic richness of the real thing, IMHO.
rw
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JoeE, the PV14ls2 has HT bypass as well as another loop for tape or whatever.
If your just using a DVD for CD playback, you might consider just adding a DAC. The EAD DAC I mentioned I believe was somewhere between $300 to $400.00. Some of the older C-J DAC's can be had for that price range and still sound much better than most players under $1k.
I tried bypassing a preamp one time with a Denon cdp that has a vaiable output going directly input an Adcom power amp, than I inserted the Adcom preamp. I preferred the sound with the preamp. I don't know what made the difference but with the preamp sounded less harsh and more full. Other than that I've just always used a preamp. It's interesting that most integrated amps choose to use a standard preamp section opposed to passive. Although PS Audio has come out with something called a Control Amp. Conrad Johnson has come with a Control amp as well but theirs is $6.5k.
I'm of the opinion that coloration is in the design, whether tube or solid state. I think tubes just give a different presence or feel than solid state, generally speaking.
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I hear you, RL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...hmmm...if you put the tubed gear in early in the game and pass it through a SS amp, you still get the "tube" sound?
It would seem that no specific sound, non-coloration, straight wire with gain, also known as High Fidelity, is the forte' of solid state?
jimHJJ(...is that about right?...)
My hypothesis is that the tube component produces low order harmonic distortion which (a) is pleasant in its own right and adds "harmonic richness", and (b) hides the high order harmonic distortion created by some s/s amps. For this reason a tube component anywhere in the circuit can produce the "tube sound".
My current monoblocks are a high-bias, low feedback MOSFET design that sound a lot more tube-like than my previous class 'D', Tripath-based amp. Dunno, but I'd take guess that the low-feedback design produces less high-order but possibly more low-order distortion, hence is more tube-like that bi-polar s/s. On the other hand my Tripath amp also had relatively low feedback so who know? :confused:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
It's interesting that most integrated amps choose to use a standard preamp section opposed to passive.
Most, yes. There is one notable exception, the ASR Emitter II. Not only is the line stage passive, the driver stage is battery powered using 886,000 mf storage. I've heard a pair of them in a very nice system. Using high level sources, I think this is the way the industry is gradually moving. :)
http://www.asraudio.de/produkte/pics/emitter2_b.jpg
http://www.asraudio.de/produkte/pics/emitter2_sk_b.jpg
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
that are alot of transistors
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They're capacitors
Quote:
Originally Posted by basite
that are alot of transistors
They comprise the 800,000+ uF that E-Stat mentions. :yikes:
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1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
They comprise the 800,000+ uF that E-Stat mentions. :yikes:
Or half of that. Each amp is a four box setup. One for audio circuitry, one for power supply, and two separate battery boxes connected using huge umbilicals. Here is a decidedly low resolution pic using my camera phone of the two amp flotilla I heard .
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
JoeE, the PV14ls2 has HT bypass as well as another loop for tape or whatever.
If your just using a DVD for CD playback, you might consider just adding a DAC. The EAD DAC I mentioned I believe was somewhere between $300 to $400.00. Some of the older C-J DAC's can be had for that price range and still sound much better than most players under $1k.
I tried bypassing a preamp one time with a Denon cdp that has a vaiable output going directly input an Adcom power amp, than I inserted the Adcom preamp. I preferred the sound with the preamp. I don't know what made the difference but with the preamp sounded less harsh and more full. Other than that I've just always used a preamp. It's interesting that most integrated amps choose to use a standard preamp section opposed to passive. Although PS Audio has come out with something called a Control Amp. Conrad Johnson has come with a Control amp as well but theirs is $6.5k.
I'm of the opinion that coloration is in the design, whether tube or solid state. I think tubes just give a different presence or feel than solid state, generally speaking.
There is a synergistic relationship between Adcom preamps and power amps. I've owned several over the years and the preamps always sound better when coupled with an Adcom power amp.
If I can find a used PV14 then the rest of the money I've budgeted can be used for a phono stage. I'll probably build one. Scratch or kit I'm not sure yet. I am certain it will be tubed with enough gain for low output MC cartridges.
Ten years or so back I built "Aunt Corey's passive buffered preamp". My final version had dual transformers, dual power supplies, Shallco ladder attenuator and switching of signal and ground for sources. Although it sounded clean clear and pure it didn't have "tube" magic and I went back to my ARC.
I've already got a DAC. I've been very happy with my MSB. It has been worked a little and sounds fine.
A (tape) loop will not suffice for my purposes. I need a complete bypass of the preamp. The input for the bypass will be the front left /right channels from my surround processor. I don't use a center channel speaker. It's impossible to get a timbre matched center with my current speakers. I've found that phantom mode works adequately. All of my 2 channel sources will be connected to the preamp. CD/DAC, TT, tuner and tape. DVD, HDTV and other surround sources go to the processor.:cool:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
They comprise the 800,000+ uF that E-Stat mentions. :yikes:
Sorry guys, those are electrolytic capacitors. That's were the 800,000+uF is stored.:ihih:
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I see a couple pv14l2 on Audiogon. One is only $1,200.00 which tells me to proceed with much caution, plus they claim the condition is 10. The other one says it's been modded which I would rule out because I'm not a tinker.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
I see a couple pv14l2 on Audiogon. One is only $1,200.00 which tells me to proceed with much caution, plus they claim the condition is 10. The other one says it's been modded which I would rule out because I'm not a tinker.
Thanks, I will investigate.:cool:
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Great discussion.
Since my system is used for both audio and visual purposes (ie CDs, tuner and vinyl, plus DVDs, VCR & TV), my thinking was that I would still use the old pre for film viewing and non critical listening, and use a tubed device for more critical listening to the old TT and CD. I'm not technically minded enough to know why, but I remember that vinyl especially sounded richer and somehow more involving when played through a tubed system. Ultimately I'd like to end up with a system which combines the benefits of both SS and tubes. Also, I'm hoping that it would add a little warmth to some classical CDs which seem cold and sterile, although technically good.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyMuso
Since my system is used for both audio and visual purposes (ie CDs, tuner and vinyl, plus DVDs, VCR & TV), my thinking was that I would still use the old pre for film viewing and non critical listening, and use a tubed device for more critical listening to the old TT and CD. I'm not technically minded enough to know why, but I remember that vinyl especially sounded richer and somehow more involving when played through a tubed system. Ultimately I'd like to end up with a system which combines the benefits of both SS and tubes. Also, I'm hoping that it would add a little warmth to some classical CDs which seem cold and sterile, although technically good.
It would seem that you and I are looking for the same type of device. A tube preamp with remote control and theater bypass.:cool:
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I should have mentioned I recently replaced my Lexicon CP1 with a Lexicon MC8. The old unit will be residing in my bedroom system. I've got to get some rear speakers before using it.:sad:
This was my first purchase in more than 3 years. It was an unexpected opportunity from a buddie. It's the main reason I'm looking for a new preamp.:cool:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyMuso
I have been intrigued by the tube sound for a while (I remember what they sound like from my childhood years), but I only upgraded to a Musical Fidelity amp driven by a Rotel pre-amp a couple of years ago. On the whole, I'm happy with this set up, but for some types of music, ie classical vocal, violin etc, I wonder if I would get a warmer sound if I introduced tubes? I don't have the money to change the whole set up, or to set up an alternative system, but thought I might experiment with a tubed pre-amp just for certain uses.
Has anybody else mated a ss amp with a tube pre-amp? Is this a successful comination?
Thanks.
If you ever consider getting tube gears with 6N6 tubes DONT DO IT.
I say this because 6N6 tubes are extremly hard to find, and there are so many misleading infos on that particular tubes. If you visit such site as Music Direct, Acoustic Sounds, etc. Alot of tube gears are equiped with 6N6s, while none of web retailers sell replacement tubes.
I found this site while back, http://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=1508
That info was wrong(well in my case anyways). E182CCs are much shorter. After reaplcing 6N6s with E182CCs, my new tubes didnt even lightup or warmed up. They are just not the same I guess. BTW, my NOS Mullards are fine( Iwent to my local tube store and had them checked out).
Just get tube gears that works with 6DJ8s, 12AX7s, 12AU7s, KT88s, 90s that are really easy to find.
PEACE.
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That's something I like about Conrad Johnson, they stock all the tubes used in each piece of gear they sell.
I have to say that I was quite surprised at how much detail my tube equipment has. My power amp uses EL-34's, I've been told that KT88's or 6550's even have better bass control. I have no doubt that there's tube equipment out there that would satisfy all but the hardened solid state lover.
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One of the reasons I've stuck with ARC preamps is they support every piece of equipment they've ever made. You can send one of their earliest pieces back to them and they will fix, repair, overhaul or simply upgrade it. With ARC there is no such thing as it's too old to fix.:)
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