Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 38
  1. #1
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    B.C.
    Posts
    54

    tube gear where do i start?

    I have been listening to a few of my friends systems with tube gear and really like the sound. seen alot of stuff on ebay but dont want to get into a boat anchor. i was going to build one from a kit but my skills are lacking.
    where does one start in this field, was just looking for some input on suppliers am on a budget but one has to start somewhere.

  2. #2
    nerd ericl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    908
    Hey Beetleman,

    If your speakers are senstive enough, you might want to check out some small vintage integrated tube amps from audiogon. You can find one that has been checked out and refurbished by a tech, and sometimes re-tubed, for not too much money. Could get you into it for not too much money. I just recently sold my fisher 500c, which was a practical decision but I now regret a bit. That thing was a boat anchor though, and it required a lot of tubes.

    Eric

  3. #3
    nerd ericl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    908
    Look for a Scott, Eico, Fisher (one of the smaller ones). There's a seller on Audiogon named Hpinc or something like that who sell lots of restored vintage tube gear at fair prices.

  4. #4
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    X
    Posts
    2,286
    I stumbled upon this site a while back that sells various tube kits. I've been tempted to try this small headphone amp.

    http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/S.E.X./SEX.htm

    I'm still trying to figure out how to get hold of the DIY kit for the headphone rack!

    It might be a good site to browse. I emphasize that I have no experience here. Click on "skill level 1" to see beginner kits.

  5. #5
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    B.C.
    Posts
    54
    sounds good, will keep my eyes open. want to do a small (reference system) preferrably with some older dynaco bookshelves ( upgradedstill looking) and allready have a good preamp ( phase linear 3300).
    any other suggestions on speaker selection (bookshelf size) around 500.00 -1000.00 ballpark for thesespeakers and do you think the pl 3300 will be a benefit or a hinderence?

  6. #6
    nightflier
    Guest

    Other options

    If you don't feel comfortable buying from ebay or audiogon, AudioAdvisor.com has a small selection of tube gear from ASL that is current and not too expensive. They also have items on b-stock or clearance that are less expensive. Here are a couple that come to mind:

    http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/pr...20Preamplifier

    http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=ASLWAV25&product_name=Wave%20AV-25%20Mono%20Tube%20Amplifier%20(Each)

    http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/pr...er%20Amplifier

    http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/pr...eadphone%20Amp

    Their tech support is very helpful and they have a very fair return policy. I've also played around with a SophiaElectric.com tube amp. Their Baby SET amp has had very positive reviews and is not very expensive either. I've emailed the owner a few times and he has been very helpful with my questions.

  7. #7
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    St. Louis, MO, USA
    Posts
    10,176
    I've been looking for some tube gear myself and will share what little I know. First off you have the SET or sometimes called "triode mode" which are typically low power rated and need efficient speakers and then you have the ultralinear which are the more powerful tube amps. From what I gather EL34's in the output stage are a smoother and warmer sounding tube where the KT88 and especially the 6550 are able to offer slightly more power and bass control and some say at the sacrafice of some of the presence of the EL34's.

    I would suggest taking a look at the Prima Luna, I can't remember the model but they have an integrated with self biasing tube circuitry for around $1,095.00, see www.upscaleaudio.com and Cayin offers several integrated amps in both triode and ultrlinear and some that will do both with the flick of a switch for under $2k, see www.acousticsounds.com. From what I've seen of their ads the Cayin like to mimic the sound of classic tube amps like McIntosh and Marantz. Some of that old Marantz tube gear sells for several times it's original retail price on the used market. There are also hybrids but i've only found a couple and they are expensive. Jolida is out there too but I think offerings from companies like Cayin and Shanling are starting to over shadow them or it just could be that Jolida has more integrity in their distribution.

    Also take a look at www.triodeandco.com to see pricing and basic info on Audio Note. Their power is triode design but they get good reviews and those who have them seem to love them.

    And might I add I have unfortunately not heard any of these. Except I do have an Audio Note DAC and if thats any representation of their sound, they are great. For the money and to get a processor loop I was seriously considering the Cayin integrated. I'm still weighing my options. Acoustic Sounds does offer 30 day money back guarantee.

  8. #8
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    8,127

    Here's what I'd do

    Quote Originally Posted by BEETLEMAN
    I have been listening to a few of my friends systems with tube gear and really like the sound. seen alot of stuff on ebay but dont want to get into a boat anchor. i was going to build one from a kit but my skills are lacking.
    where does one start in this field, was just looking for some input on suppliers am on a budget but one has to start somewhere.
    I would get myself a Musical Fidelity X-10v3 Tube Output Buffer ...
    You can play around putting this unit different places, viz. ...
    • Between CD player and preamp
    • In the preamp tape out/in loop
    • Between preamp and power amp
    I'd bet you'll get more or less the same results regardless of location. Why so you ask

    My theory is the tubes "debur" the signal, that is, in no way do they provide a better signal than SS. Rather, what they do is somehow smooth the signal, possibly by rounding dynamic and/or high frequency spikes. They can do this more or less well anywhere ahead of the power amp, though closer to source is probably best.

  9. #9
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    135
    What is a tube amp exactly? I have never quite understood what it is or how to use it. Is it a normal amp and how would you hook modern equipment up to one?

  10. #10
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    Tube amps work the same as regular SS amps - instead of a board of transistors you have tubes (glorified lightbulbs) that amplify the signal. Tube versus ss versus hybrid vs digital arguments go back and forth. The people who attack tubes either never heard tube amps and believe whatever SS and digital amp makers tell them, or heard what I would refer to as the "classic" tube amp sound which unfortunately are in fact glorified tone controls which "warm" up the subjective sound by softening the treble and the bass. Indeed, low powered clean SEP and SET amps can become classic sounding if matched up to difficult speaker load impedences. Tube amps don't like low impedence speakers or large impedence swings and most speakers do both making the SET or SEP a tough match (ie you have to really know the speaker is going to work for the amp)

    Bryston is what got me interested in high end - I could have bought a Bryston Separates system or an MF or several others, Classe, etc separates system and plenty ofused options -- my speakers like tubes and there is no doubt in my view that when you have speakers that can distinguish amplifiers (usually easy to drive sensitive speakers) then you can buy an amplifier on the merits of the sound quality rather than buying purely on the merrits of whether it has enough power to drive the speakers.

    Here's a nice entry level tube amp -- it has pretty much anything you could want from a stereo integrated amplifier http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...slaq1003dt.htm

    The Audio Note are a little more idiot proof in that they require no bias adjustments (the car equivelant of fuel injection versus carberators).

    I have tried the buffers - three of them and a transistor in the speaker line -- no they sound nothing like good tube amplifiers -- so whatever myth the SS crowd would like to propogate may hold true for the ST70 tube amp from the 1960s. Interestingly what i found from the Bryston and MF amps is a little of what reminds me of Dolby Noise reduction - it takes out the noise and improves I suppose the noise floor but on GOOD decks from Nakamichi the sound was vastly superior without the Noise reduction system -- taking 10% of the noise away is good -- but not when they also took 25% of the music along with it. And today;s tube amps for the most part make no audible noise have a noise floor that is low enough and doesn't gut the music -- As good as Bryston it is it may as well render the music as low res Mp3 compared to the best cd or vinyl. And once you hear good implementations it's really hard to go back to SS -- I grew up on SS have heard some digital units - and tubes are a pain to own (as like lightbulbs they do have to be replaced every few years) But having music created with a better sense of timing with all of the extension but without the grit and noise in the treble and without early compression and a lack of 3dimensionality is something I won't trade in for spec sheet figures.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    135
    I wouldnt even know how to begin hooking it up. So many specs, I feel overwhelmed by it all too. Would my paradigm monitor 7s be a good match or are they not detailed enough?

  12. #12
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    No it is my view that system synergy is the key. By this I believe we have to stop looking at stereos as separate pieces we buy from the advice of magazines forums and internet posters but by the merit of listening for ourselves and deciding purely on that merit.

    My amplifier is a great sounding unit but it only sounds great when the right speaker is matched to it -- it could sound completely crappy on the Paradigm Monitor 7 -- then again it may sound very good.

    I think a lot of negative judgments about tube amps (and there is not really from most audiophiles anymore who have heard good ones). There are many different tube amp designs and there is a certain flavour that they provide - the dual argument of course is that if there is a flavour then it diverts from total accuracy -- which I won't get into but the flavour will have less impact on this than any speaker's impact to accuracy and what is the main point of listening to music is the musical enjoyment.

    One of the big lies IMO that does not get mentioned by morons like Peter Aczel is that watts does not equal volume. A 30 watt pure class A amplifier (like the one I posted) (the most linear true the original signwave without doctoring) will play a 90db 8ohm speaker pretty much as loud as any 100watt SS amplifier. Unless you truly listen to your music at the speaker's maximum volume before blowing then paying for watts just is not worth it. Indeed high watt amps often create more noise not less especially separates.

    Men are the primary buyers and a lot of guys with penis envy need to buy bigger (bigger amps bigger watts bigger speakers). Tubes have the romantic appeal etc which usually brings thoughts of smoother like a fine wine or old and less technically savy -- and I think iot is really important to get the bias out of the equation. The tube amp I posted I like but I like a SS amp better under $2kUS and i like that SS amp (Sugden A21a) better than some very expensive tube amps or SS ones.

    Most speakers are simply not tested with tube amps - generally speaking, at least with Single Ended lower powered tubes amps, they like relatively simple speakers with not a lot of parts to slug the sound and impeded the amp's work. What you generally see matched is horn speakers that have sensitivity figures in the high 90's or up matched with big woofers that don't require much power to move. Small high excursion woofers or worse long throw types require power lots of power and ones with lots of correction int he crossover apparently sucks power.

    If I had Paradigm or B&W slim line design speakers I would want a bit of a beefier tube amp perhpas from Jolida - they have 60-70 watt units which should be enough to drive anything from Paradigm with relative ease. Some of the Paradigms have lowish impedence dips so I might run them on the amp's 4 ohm tap. http://www.jolida.com/catalogue/tubeamp.shtml

    All connections are exactly the same as a regular NAD or Arcam or other SS integrated. The only thing is that you have to replace the tubes when they go. The EL34 tube starts at about $20.00 for two - so every 2-5 years you might have to spend $40.00 -- most people buy several to try different ones because each kind has a slightly different sound and many claim that some tubes can really improve things quite a bit. In a SS amp if it's not quite right you have to get rid of the amp - with tube amps sometimes a cheap fix can take it from good to great.

    If interested you should try the tube forum at audioasylum for way more experience than people here have or myself -- I am not really interested in the technology - I'm interested in results and whether that is tube or transistor or SS or windpower or whatever I could care less. http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/bbs.html

  13. #13
    It's just a hobby
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    808

    What is a tube amplifier?

    Quote Originally Posted by snodog
    What is a tube amp exactly? I have never quite understood what it is or how to use it. Is it a normal amp and how would you hook modern equipment up to one?
    A tube amplifier is simply an amplifier that utilizes vacuum tubes instead of transistors as it active amplification device. There are a whole variety of tube amplifiers following a myriad of designs and utilizing a variety of tubes but all generally fall into three basic categories Singled Ended (Class A, Output Transformer), Push-Pull (Class B, Class AB, Output Transformer), OTL (Transformerless, Class A or Class AB, B) or Hybrid (Could be anything). In each category, there some excellent, some average and some downright poor examples. But then that is just a like any other category of audio components, isn't it ?

    With many tube amplifiers a few safety precautions and good ventilation is necessary. However with most modern example, connectivity is the same as Solid-State amplification. Speaker matching is a caveat that applies to most amplifiers, if you want wring out the optimal performance.
    Last edited by theaudiohobby; 11-10-2005 at 01:32 AM.

  14. #14
    nightflier
    Guest

    Interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    My theory is the tubes "debur" the signal, that is, in no way do they provide a better signal than SS. Rather, what they do is somehow smooth the signal, possibly by rounding dynamic and/or high frequency spikes. They can do this more or less well anywhere ahead of the power amp, though closer to source is probably best.
    Technically, though, this is not the same as having the tubes in the amplifier. What you are describing is more like a filter to take the edge off of sources that might have a slightly harsher sound. I would guess that to someone accustomed to using a tube amp, the sound would not be the same, no matter where in the system it is connected. It is a rather intriguing solution, nonetheless. I wouldn't mind giving it a whirl.

    Has anyone here used one of these?

  15. #15
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    135
    I guess I understood alittle piece of that. It would seem that if someone was to get into an expensive hobby of this kind that you would want an understanding in electronics as well..It is like getting into RC planes and such, easier to comprehend if someone is available to point things out in person.

  16. #16
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Technically, though, this is not the same as having the tubes in the amplifier. What you are describing is more like a filter to take the edge off of sources that might have a slightly harsher sound. I would guess that to someone accustomed to using a tube amp, the sound would not be the same, no matter where in the system it is connected. It is a rather intriguing solution, nonetheless. I wouldn't mind giving it a whirl.

    Has anyone here used one of these?
    You're right and the ASL AQ1003DT with the B&W CDM 1NT sounded faster tighter and even brighter than several SS amp's I tried. The ASL was not harsh bright but certainly had more of that "air" often assoxciated with big SS power. Interestingly if you compared it to my Sugden A48b -- I would bet every listener if they had to pick which one sounded like the valve amp would choose the Sugden which is a 70 watt SS amp.

    The people starting these myths are either talking to 60 year olds who last heard a tube amp in 1960 or just have not heard a good tube amp.

    My current tube amp in TWO reviews refer to it as dark or rolled off in the treble slightly --- after finding out what speakers were used in both tests I understand their result - and both very much liked the amp -- but I have to wonder why these people are in the review business testing a 10 watt amp on power hog speakers -- impedences on most speakers get tough at the frequency extremes -- which tuckers out low watt amps. In fact I'm amazed by the positive reviews of the amp with the speakers matched up -- neither used the matching speakers neither used a speaker with flat impedence neither used a high snesitive speaker or a horn???

    I mean if I had a 1 watt amp and brought in a speaker that was 70db sensitive with .06ohm dip and then compalined that the speaker had no bass and rolled off highs - people would say i was unfair to the speakers -- funny that it doesn't go the other way.

  17. #17
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    St. Louis, MO, USA
    Posts
    10,176
    What I experienced hearing tubes years ago and I am currently looking for can only be described as a presence. The vocalist seemed so real to me it was haunting. I think tubees call that "fleshing out" the sound. At the time I was in pursuit of what I thought was the most accurate sound. I still have yet to hear anything that delivered the dynamics and impact of live music like my Krell and Dynaudio combo but my taste is changing I guess and I want something to fool me into thinking the performance is in my room and bring me into the music more. With the Krell there is still something that prevents my brain from believeing it's real. Unless we are prepared to spend ungodly amounts of money I feel whichever technology we go with there are sacrafices. I was on the quest for the most accurate or true to performance, in my mind, and now I want music I can enjoy more and I am prepared to be more forgiving if the bass isn't exactly controlled perfectly or whatever the difference might be as long as the sound isn't so overly colored.....

    It's funny tube gear manufacturers sell by claiming to sound more solid state and some solid state companies want to claim they can reproduce the attributes of tubes. And then there are a few that want to built gear that contain both technologies. The latter is interesting and I'd like to hear some. Actually, I auditioned some ARC gear last weekend, a LS16 tube preamp and 150.2 Class T power amp. I was very disappointed in the sound, I didn't like it at all. So I am staying away from those tube manufacturers who claim to be "neutral". The LS16 uses the new "super tube" that BAT first brought in from Russia, I think it's 6H30. It lasts 10,000 hours supposedly. BAT raves about the tube and others are starting to get their hands on them. I just hope the other companies made them sound better.

    How much money was budgeted for your gear? I found a tube company out of Seattle called Genesis who makes amps that are said to be real giant killers and under priced per performance. In my mind I found the ultimate tube amp in Audio Valve. They are monoblocks that have auto bias and allows you to use EL34's, KT88's or 6550's. Of course, these puppies are a pricey German import.

    An unfortunate thing is that those who buy "high end" are few in number and most of us have a small selection of gear to actually listen to in our area. So we either have to pick what we think we might like and buy off the internet with hopefully a 30 day return or buy used to have to deal with what we got or turn around to re-sell it if we aren't happy.

    Whoooo.... see what happens when you get a day off and you drink your normal amount of coffee in the morning, I write as much as RGA

  18. #18
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    8,127

    EXACTLY, dude

    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Technically, though, this is not the same as having the tubes in the amplifier. What you are describing is more like a filter to take the edge off of sources that might have a slightly harsher sound. I would guess that to someone accustomed to using a tube amp, the sound would not be the same, no matter where in the system it is connected. It is a rather intriguing solution, nonetheless. I wouldn't mind giving it a whirl.

    Has anyone here used one of these?
    IMNHO, tubes act as a sometime useful filter and that is the only real virtue of tubes.

    Judging by some of the reviews or comments re. the MF X10v3, e.g. the recent TAS with >$6500 system recommendations, most of the benefits of tubes are deliverd by this unit, viz. greater depth and the like. Logically the unit cannot be doing anything better than SS because the SS components are all still there Ergo, the tube-base unit is filtering.

    Musical Fidelity don't make specific claims for their unit except that buffers a CDP's impedance, but since this is seldom a problem, the audible difference, such as it might be, is explained by some other mechanism in most cases. Interesting that MF doesn't make many claims: sort of like the people selling the "ionizing" bracelet.

  19. #19
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    St. Louis, MO, USA
    Posts
    10,176
    Feanor, were you just making a statement about the MF gear? Because there is a big difference between tube and solid state amps. They are 2 differenct technologies. I'm not a tech but tubes are used instead of, not along with, transistors in the output stage, not just to filter but to do the job. Tubes are also used in other areas of the amp to do various jobs. The MF buffer piece I would agree that it is something different. I hate to comment on this piece not having heard one but it's hard to believe that it could add the same sound to a system as actually having a tube system.

  20. #20
    It's just a hobby
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    808
    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    -- neither used the matching speakers neither used a speaker with flat impedence neither used a high sensitive speaker or a horn???
    RGA,

    How many speakers are out there, with high sensitivity speakers as well as a flat impedance? There are not many at all, and where they exist they are either very large or have fairly restricted bandwidth, there is no free lunch.

  21. #21
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    8,127

    No; then again ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Feanor, were you just making a statement about the MF gear? Because there is a big difference between tube and solid state amps. They are 2 differenct technologies. I'm not a tech but tubes are used instead of, not along with, transistors in the output stage, not just to filter but to do the job. Tubes are also used in other areas of the amp to do various jobs. The MF buffer piece I would agree that it is something different. I hate to comment on this piece not having heard one but it's hard to believe that it could add the same sound to a system as actually having a tube system.
    I'll admit I'm being a bit provocative.

    Certainly tube and SS technologies are very different; (on top of that I can hear differences between amplifiers of the the same group). So it isn't surprising to me that tubes sound different from SS and that they share characteristics that set them apart from SS.

    Technically tube amps have certain characteristics that avoid SS problems. (1) No "notch" distortion, (distortion at very low power through-put); (2) less irritating forms of distortion, that is, mostly second order harmoinic as opposed to higher and odd order distortion; (3) designs that require less global negative feedback. The fact is, though, that modern SS designs very largely avoid these problems, so these factors are not longer adequate to explain supposed tube superiority.

    One factor for tubes is that the 2nd order harmonic distortion is pleasant to the ear. It adds a certain "richness" to the sound and perhaps explains the "harmonic texture" and "depth" that many ascribe to tube sound.

    Another possibly relevant factor is that tube amps "clip" more gracefully that SS, (i.e. reach power overload with less distortion). Pjay, (in another formum, see below), argued amplifiers clip much more often than we suppose, especially in transitory peaks. And he posited that tubes' ability to handle this more smoothly largely explains their sonic superiority, such as it is.
    Now here's my point. First, if you "round off" the transitory peaks before you get to the current-providing amplification stage, (the power amp), it doesn't much matter where in the amplification chain you do it. Secondly, if you are injecting a little, pleasant 2nd order distortion, again, it doesn't much matter where you do it.

    In conclusion, yes, tubes are a sort of filter for otherwise clip-inducing waveforms, and the only, major thing they do is add distortion. Most or all of their positive effect can be gained by putting them at any convenient point in the amplification chain.

  22. #22
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    Quote Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    RGA,

    How many speakers are out there, with high sensitivity speakers as well as a flat impedance? There are not many at all, and where they exist they are either very large or have fairly restricted bandwidth, there is no free lunch.
    TAH you are absolutely correct -- and the last few times I have been on the same page with you...there are other things beyond sound that are advantages and disadvantages and the disadvantage of my amp is that you are incredibly pidgeonholed into selecting speakers. And if you change your mind on the speakers then you probably have to change the amp as well. And in the case of my SE it is actually relatively powerful so the people buying those 1.5 watters really have a small selection of speakers to go to.

  23. #23
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Feanor, were you just making a statement about the MF gear? Because there is a big difference between tube and solid state amps. They are 2 differenct technologies. I'm not a tech but tubes are used instead of, not along with, transistors in the output stage, not just to filter but to do the job. Tubes are also used in other areas of the amp to do various jobs. The MF buffer piece I would agree that it is something different. I hate to comment on this piece not having heard one but it's hard to believe that it could add the same sound to a system as actually having a tube system.
    Quite simply it is a tone control and does not sound like a tube amp. In fact there are many (indeed most new) tube amps with THD and other numbers that rival many SS amps and more to the point post numbers that are inaudible anyway. The pure and simple fact is that most tube amps and probably all single ended amps are not going to win any spec sheet or measurement contest (created by SS makers) so that point is moot. UHF noted that when reviewing the old Dac 1(I mention AN because you're an owner) which they said had measurements so bizarre that they could not explain it (good or bad) it was completely different than any other cd player they had seen (and considering it was by Audio Note standards their worst digital replay system and out of date older model which even when the review came out was already a generation old) they still noted that it beat their reference player in many regards.

    It's funny because of all the stuff they make their cd players and amps measure by industry standards badly. You see what it took me about 12 years to learn was that after continuously only buying based on measurements and spec sheets was that whatever it is they're measuring just isn't really useful - it gives a clue to what is going on but that's it.

    The thing is if the voodoo surrounding distortion matterred then you would hear it -- and you don't. If I put on Sarah mclachlan and she is playing her piano and singing then here voice SHOULD distort in a crescendo and litterally "warble" or do something that suggests that that is distortion. Or in a loud crescendo on the barber piece (the platoon soundtrack where there is extremely extended violin sections then the Violin in a side by side test on the exact same speakers and cables in the same room SHOULD deviate in some manner as to irritate the hell out of you. In fact it was the Bryston at 16 times the power rating that had "trouble" being convincing and had more audible noise shimmerring in the treble band and entering an anomoly of some sort to just end up being tiring - despite the fact that ALL numbers point in favour of the Bryston it just is utterly laughable in the listening room as to render the whole which is better routine a waste of forum space -- get the heck out there and listen side by side to both with a speaker that is friendly to the low watt amp (my session was with an AN E). But Deja Vu Audio has tons of other speakers and bring in whatever SS amp and A/B them against some fo their PP tubes and SETs. What I have heard is that many tubes tend not to have quite the "snap" on the initial transient that SS amps have which accounts for the feeling that tubes are smoother or if you dislike tubes then you'll use the word veiled instead.

    As someone who has fairly decent knowledge of the scientific method and philosophy (logic) I know where I SHOULD side and that is with SS and CD --- it takes quite a bit of convincing to believe the tube /vinyl whackos -- but their job was to prove it to me in the listening room and it is awful tough to be confronted with the subjective experience that goes against pretty much every single thing you believed for 12 years in the hobby and pretty much what every magazine said and what the vast majority of forumers with engineering degrees or wannabe engineers have to say.

    Because all they need to do is hook up whatever engineering wonder they say is fantastic Wilson/Krell/Levinson or PMC/Bryston and then I hook up the tube whacko system and everyone EVERYONE in the room looks around and just laughs in disbelief at how we were all royally hosed up the ass with garbage the industry doles out that is so far removed from what was heard in the session that something us up. And it's not added euphoric distortion because distortion agffects everything icluding voice not warbling and drum kits and triangles and cellos etc. I just can't see how a cellon that sounds more like a cello can be called distortion if so then bring it on. And if it means I can enjoy the music longer and never once have even the tiniest modem of regret (except that I didn't find out about it earlier) then the babbling over what is more accurate they can have. Like headphones you can have more accurate ones but if the less accurate one is far more comfortable and less irritating and "subjectively" sounds better then guess which headphone is going to stay in the box and which one you're going to listen to often.

    And while I like the PMC and Bryston for it's Slam and I genuinely think it's a good combo it is also something that I can't listen to for mroe than 1/2 an hour and I certainly could not relax to what it is doing. To me that is a big disadvantage but if you only listen to movies and hard rock for a party or classical and jazz for 1/2 hour then I can and do often recommend the combo.

    I'd also be happy to put my system up for an audition and defy anyone to be able to "tell" that the amp is a tube. I will run 10 amplifiers - 9SS amps and the OTO. You get one track whatever one you like(due to time as changing this many amps is consuming) or would be able to identify well and in blind session you pick out the OTO as the SE tube amp. After all if tubes are fuzzy totally innacutrate tone controls then it should easily be detected as such.

    I am free most of January. -- I will also allow you to have a second session and score card so at the end you can choose the amp that sounded the best - also blind but more listening time. It may take time to set up but part of this will be that ALL SS amps in the test will have a retail cost that at the very least doubles the OTO and I will accept any digital amp to be used in either test. Pm me if you have time in January and can make it to BC.

  24. #24
    nightflier
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by BEETLEMAN
    I have been listening to a few of my friends systems with tube gear and really like the sound. seen alot of stuff on ebay but dont want to get into a boat anchor. i was going to build one from a kit but my skills are lacking.
    where does one start in this field, was just looking for some input on suppliers am on a budget but one has to start somewhere.
    Here is one of those Sophia Electric Baby tube amps that I found on eBay:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Sophia-Electric-...QQcmdZViewItem

    It's at $450 with just three days left. It's a great deal and like I mentioned before, Sophia techs are very helpful in answering any questions you may have.

  25. #25
    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Lower AL
    Posts
    2,838
    I should have put together a tube based system when I built one about 6 years ago. I've always used a tube amp with my guitars so, in hindsight, I should have gone that route. But now I'm doing something about it. I started by listening to some Jolida and Audio Research gear. The system that attracted me the most consisted of a Jolida 202A integrated amp, a Jolida 100 cd player and a pair of Nola Alon Li'l Rascals MkII with a sub. The 3d images seemed to float in space between the speakers - very sweet. I've been waiting for an opportunity to put together my own version of this system. Unfortunately, I have high-maintanence wife and kids what with braces, glasses, contacts, private school, gas money, lunch money, etc. so I've planned very carefully. My first step was to order a Jolida 202A integrated and a refurbished Cambridge Audio D500SE (w/full manuf. warranty) from a reputable dealer. They are supposed to arrive Monday so I can play with them over Thanksgiving. These components will replace an Acurus A100 amp, Parasound P/HP 850 preamp and AMC cd8b cd player. I will have to use the old preamp for its phono section for a while.

    Step 2 to be completed by Christmas (unless everyone else gets Santa's money):
    replace my Acoustic Energy Aegis One speakers with a pair of 10ohm, above average efficiency monitors that have been replaced by newer models - I have a bite from the manufacturer on tracking these down, a new outboard phono stage and new cartridge. I've picked out the phono stage and cartridge. The only wildcard is the pair of discontinued speakers. I'll be using my present turntable and tuner.

    IMO, if you have a small room and the right speakers, you can get by with a modest tube integrated. The Jolida seems to be the best value for "tube magic" in such a setting. You give up some connectivity options and features, however. The biggest drawback of my current system is its cd sound. Although the Jolida 100 tube cd player would have been the best choice for my ears, my budget and desire to rework some other areas too required me to find a cdp that plays music warmly without listener fatigue for cheap. I narrowed my choices down to the CA 500SE and NAD C542. I almost waited too late for the 500SE because the replacement Azur series has been out for a long time.

    The only drawback to the newly envisioned system is no headphone amp, but I haven't been using my headphones at home for several months anyhow so it should be no big deal.

    Take some time to familiarize yourself with the different brands out there and look for deals on demos and discontinued models. Check out internet dealers like the following:

    www.spearitsound.com (has a demos and specials page)
    www.upscaleaudio.com (has a demos and specials page)
    www.audioadvisor.com (has a clearance page)

    Check product review sites like this one and audioasylum.com, audioholics.com and ecoustics.com.
    You have to track down and listen to the items that interest you the most from what you've read. It takes some time, but the search is half the fun.

    I'll know next week whether my first step is a giant leap or a bust.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •