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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
All I can say is wow. The Octave had the mid range and upper detail of unpeccable sound engineering without being overly colored or warm and the bass slam of a SS amp. On a scale of tube sweetness or coloration I would say the tube sweetness was about 4 on a scale of..very colored at 10 and the least color or sweetness of tubes at 1 and the bottom end had the slam, pace and deep bass of a solid state power amp. I've made my impression made to Mr.P that it was very close to the sound of those very big mono block Reference amps Marantz makes that cost $15,000 a pair. The Octave was warm but not overly warm. Cymbals and Benny Greens piano had a very nice texture and Christian Mcbrides bass was slamming like...it was like we where listening to a nice big warm solid state amp but you would look up and it was tubes. We then switched over to a T+A SS amp and preamp and all of a sudden SS sounded really grainy. The magic was gone, until we put the tunes back on the Octave....if any one has $5000 to spend on a very nice and classy looking integrated preamp thats not overly warm or overly colored with nice air go and take a listen. RGA if you can...try and do a review of that thing....and I betcha you will find synergy between the music of the Octave and your own soul ...the Octave was full of passion.
Oh I see you guys enjoyed hearing a 40 watt tube amp. Hmmmm, who do we know with a 40 watt tube amp?
My Golden Tube isn't as good as the Octave, not as much bass. In terms of mid and high freq, I can relate to your experience. I hear it every day.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
I heard no noise issue with the Rogue gear - so if they had a problem they fixed it or perhaps they had a new preamp. They were running the Herra II preamp ~$8,000
Heres one such pro review..he gave it good marks a score of 9 out of 10, but at the end talked about the noise.
http://www.10audio.com/rogue_metis.htm
And I have also seen few other reviews...pro and consumer who have said they are noisy.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Oh I see you guys enjoyed hearing a 40 watt tube amp. Hmmmm, who do we know with a 40 watt tube amp?
My Golden Tube isn't as good as the Octave, not as much bass. In terms of mid and high freq, I can relate to your experience. I hear it every day.
Pops...I know a guy who has a tube amp thats 25 watts....you would think it was 100 watts per by the way it sounded.
On a sweetness scale of 1-10 with 1 being very very little tonal tube sweetness and 10 being very much saturated with tubed tonal sweetness, where would you rate the Golden Tube?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Pops...I know a guy who has a tube amp thats 25 watts....you would think it was 100 watts per by the way it sounded.
On a sweetness scale of 1-10 with 1 being very very little tonal tube sweetness and 10 being very much saturated with tubed tonal sweetness, where would you rate the Golden Tube?
I would put it at a 7/8, depending on the rest of the chain. The mids are ridiculously warm but the highs still maintain some crispness and shimmer. In terms of bass, it's technically weak but in reality it drops quite a bit and is always detailed. I couldn't listen to music with insufficient bass. That said, I prefer natural bass that's correctly mixed. Some SS gear drives me nuts because the bass is bloated. That's the only problem with the old Kenwood integrated I'm running right now.
Last time the SE40 was in the shop, my tech hooked it up and the amp did not start to clip until it hit 42 watts into an 8ohm load. It's a brilliant topology and excellent design. I also spent top dollar to have Auricaps and Orange Drops put in it.
They pop up on the Gon often enough, usually in excellent shape for roughly 600 - 800 depending on servicing.
I would LOVE to see you with a tube amp. IMO, your musical philosophy screams "tubes". As much as you hate when dudes say SS has no life, I hate when guys say tubes have no dynamics. To me, if you listen for that soulful aspect of music, tubes have it in spades.
I did some experimenting with my preamps lately. I am using an SS pre on the SE40 and put my Eico on an SS amp. I am really enjoying the combo. I think a tube pre is a good duirection for you. try to find a 12AX7 topology since they are plentiful and affordable.
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Actually, Geoff, every one here except for RGA who uses tubes has ultralinear.
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I was in that camp for a long time. Thought I needed the power of SS to drive my speakers because they are not the most efficient. I was also in the metal tweeter camp for about 6 years because I was told that they have detail and sparkle. I started to wonder why I lost interest in the music after an hour or so. I thought I was A.D.D. and just got tired of listening. Turns out I was tired of hearing what I was hearing. Who knew. Got to go my tubes are warming up.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington
I was also in the metal tweeter camp for about 6 years because I was told that they have detail and sparkle. I started to wonder why I lost interest in the music after an hour or so. I thought I was A.D.D. and just got tired of listening. Turns out I was tired of hearing what I was hearing.
Jack what kind of speakers did you have? I have a pair of Sound Dynamics 1200 SMT. They are two way...aluminum dome tweeter, 12" woofer and 12" passive rad. I absolutely love 'em and will NEVER get rid of them. In certain circles they are revered. A big part of the API history. Energy 22 owners have discovered that the SD tweeters are a perfect drop in, so now they are really sought after.
Anyhow, I have found that amplification is the dealbreaker with these. It makes the difference of fatiguing to dynamic brilliance. The crazy part? I prefer them with SS than tubes. I have a vintage Pioneer that has the sweetest sound with the 1200's.
I would agree that an escape from metal tweeters is nice too. I am speaker rich, so this isn't an issue for me. Kind of off topic...:nono:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
I would put it at a 7/8, depending on the rest of the chain. The mids are ridiculously warm but the highs still maintain some crispness and shimmer. In terms of bass, it's technically weak but in reality it drops quite a bit and is always detailed. I couldn't listen to music with insufficient bass. That said, I prefer natural bass that's correctly mixed. Some SS gear drives me nuts because the bass is bloated. That's the only problem with the old Kenwood integrated I'm running right now.
Last time the SE40 was in the shop, my tech hooked it up and the amp did not start to clip until it hit 42 watts into an 8ohm load. It's a brilliant topology and excellent design. I also spent top dollar to have Auricaps and Orange Drops put in it.
They pop up on the Gon often enough, usually in excellent shape for roughly 600 - 800 depending on servicing.
I would LOVE to see you with a tube amp. IMO, your musical philosophy screams "tubes". As much as you hate when dudes say SS has no life, I hate when guys say tubes have no dynamics. To me, if you listen for that soulful aspect of music, tubes have it in spades.
I did some experimenting with my preamps lately. I am using an SS pre on the SE40 and put my Eico on an SS amp. I am really enjoying the combo. I think a tube pre is a good duirection for you. try to find a 12AX7 topology since they are plentiful and affordable.
7/8.Hummm...thats really warm in my book. It may be to the point of too much coloration for me. That Octave was only about a 4 and it was just right....hardly any coloration at all. Everything was rounded off perfectly and absolutely excellent detail and air. They where driving some Dynaudio's but I would have loved to listen to the Octave with a set of speakers not as warm as the Dynaudios. This was hi end all the way...no mid fi here. They had some Dali Lektor's but the sales man was not having any of that on his Octave....he said in so many words...not the same class which it wasn't. The Lektor's where mid fi, MrP and I did get a chance to listen to them and they are great speakers..bottom end could be a tad tighter but they where good and they where not warm...had a little better sparkle and liveliness. The Octave is better suited for the Dali Helicon M2.
Dont worry Pops...I will get me a set of tubes in due time, and no mid fi either....I got two kids whom I send to private schools and that a cheap. I've heard that Balanced Audio Technologies are super warm, but today I've been doing a little research on their product and im starting to think that's not true at all but the complete opposite.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Heres one such pro review..he gave it good marks a score of 9 out of 10, but at the end talked about the noise.
http://www.10audio.com/rogue_metis.htm
And I have also seen few other reviews...pro and consumer who have said they are noisy.
Well if they're noisy the one they brought to the show wasn't. Noise issues can be caused by a lot of things, cable television is a big one. I had a huge hum from it - oddly it effected all my gear EXCEPT the tube amps. RF interference, cruddy electrical - some gear is more susceptible to picking it up - preamps are the one device that will pick up noise. They may not have shielded something properly. I know Audio Note had some issues with their turntables but in England they had no problems - it was only the models that got shipped here. They simply put a plate over it and the noise is completely gone.
If the Rogue worries you though don't buy it. A show report can only illustrate so much - but I had the volume cranked and it was as clear as a bell. It was the best sound I have heard from Wilson Audio.
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I always go back to one of the more spot on, subjective, analogies of SS versus Tubes. From a top of the Line Bryston/PMC owner (pro gear):
"All the hoary myths about SET amplification (mid-range to die for, no bass, coloured) proved untrue. The system easily generated realistic pressure levels in our 21X12 ft. room. It gave an insight into the richness of timing, rate of dynamic ebb and flow, volume, and the harmonic information on every recording that was startling. Not startling in a granular, detailed, etched way, but in a wholesome and organic way – I'll use the word holistic, if I may.
I realised then what it is about solid state audio that makes me uneasy and dissatisfied. It's analogous to the feeling I get working under fluorescent strip lights with their 50Hz switching cycle. It's light right enough, but it makes me feel uneasy and eventually fatigued.
I think that in a similar way, probably the majority of mainstream audio gear fails more or less to transfer to the listener the essential subtle information that makes the artifice of reproduced music acceptable to the brain. Perhaps because of the non-linearity of solid-state amplification, the liberal use of negative feedback, and the non-time and phase coherent nature of most speakers, the information is lost or scrambled. Without it, performances may well have those attributes so beloved of audio reviewers and salesmen like slam and transparency, but as musical events they are reduced to the value of background tunes in lifts or supermarket music. It's rather like comparing the richness of a Rembrandt to a join-the-dots picture in a puzzle magazine. They're both pictures. But that's where the similarity ends." http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/O...al/345133.html
I agree.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Well if they're noisy the one they brought to the show wasn't. Noise issues can be caused by a lot of things, cable television is a big one. I had a huge hum from it - oddly it effected all my gear EXCEPT the tube amps. RF interference, cruddy electrical - some gear is more susceptible to picking it up - preamps are the one device that will pick up noise. They may not have shielded something properly. I know Audio Note had some issues with their turntables but in England they had no problems - it was only the models that got shipped here. They simply put a plate over it and the noise is completely gone.
If the Rogue worries you though don't buy it. A show report can only illustrate so much - but I had the volume cranked and it was as clear as a bell. It was the best sound I have heard from Wilson Audio.
Did you read the article?
If you had no problems with noise, then I will put it back on my list....but the odd thing is he said it was noisy but still give it a 9 out of 10 points...even with the noise it got a great score.
One other thing if i may ask? Whats your opinion of BAT...Balanced Audio Technologies? I've hear they was overly warm on their tubes
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frenchmon, I think the scale thing is not working. I am saying that my SE40 is certainly less tubey than MacIntosh, if that gives you a barometer. With a 7/8, I was trying to convey that it ISN'T saturated so to speak.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
I always go back to one of the more spot on, subjective, analogies of SS versus Tubes. From a top of the Line Bryston/PMC owner (pro gear):
"All the hoary myths about SET amplification (mid-range to die for, no bass, coloured) proved untrue. The system easily generated realistic pressure levels in our 21X12 ft. room. It gave an insight into the richness of timing, rate of dynamic ebb and flow, volume, and the harmonic information on every recording that was startling. Not startling in a granular, detailed, etched way, but in a wholesome and organic way – I'll use the word holistic, if I may.
...
No you may not! :mad: I'm really sick of bullsh!t words like "holistic" used to decribe anything including tubes and analog.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
frenchmon, I think the scale thing is not working. I am saying that my SE40 is certainly less tubey than MacIntosh, if that gives you a barometer. With a 7/8, I was trying to convey that it ISN'T saturated so to speak.
Oh ok. The Audio Research tubed preamp I listened to with a Mac tube amp was maybe a 4 on the scale...it was not saturated with coloration. But it was an older McIntosh...some say that has something to do with it....I don't know enough about them nor have I heard many Mac's to have an opinion.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Actually, Geoff, every one here except for RGA who uses tubes has ultralinear.
Yes, I figured it was by far the most popular, certainly it's the best bang for the buck.
I have heard other topologies that I enjoy, like the Atma-Sphere OTL's. Probably the only amp that I would trade my current one in for ;
http://www.atma-sphere.com/products/m60.html
Remarkable design and execution.
Of course if you have the cash and a really big air conditioner;
http://www.atma-sphere.com/images/MA-3a.jpg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Jack what kind of speakers did you have? I have a pair of Sound Dynamics 1200 SMT. They are two way...aluminum dome tweeter, 12" woofer and 12" passive rad. I absolutely love 'em and will NEVER get rid of them. In certain circles they are revered. A big part of the API history. Energy 22 owners have discovered that the SD tweeters are a perfect drop in, so now they are really sought after.
Anyhow, I have found that amplification is the dealbreaker with these. It makes the difference of fatiguing to dynamic brilliance. The crazy part? I prefer them with SS than tubes. I have a vintage Pioneer that has the sweetest sound with the 1200's.
I would agree that an escape from metal tweeters is nice too. I am speaker rich, so this isn't an issue for me. Kind of off topic...:nono:
My first serious step into HiFi was with a pair of Paradigm Monitor 9's in 2000. Wanted floorstanders and the Mon. 9's fit the bill and budget. Over the next couple years got the full HT setup and enjoyed it. Then with more musical knowledge and a bigger budget my tastes started to change. Now 10 years later, I have replaced all of my original equipment.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Did you read the article?
If you had no problems with noise, then I will put it back on my list....but the odd thing is he said it was noisy but still give it a 9 out of 10 points...even with the noise it got a great score.
One other thing if i may ask? Whats your opinion of BAT...Balanced Audio Technologies? I've hear they was overly warm on their tubes
He reviewed the metis - I have not heard that one. The one I heard was the Herra II - I can't tell from one review if this is a problem. A lot of things can account for noise. A bad tube, cap, etc.
I have not been a big fan of BAT - But I have not tried them with speakers I particularly love either so it's not really a knock on them so much as what they have been partnered with. Also the dealer that carries them is not near me so it's been several years since listening to them.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
No you may not! :mad: I'm really sick of bullsh!t words like "holistic" used to decribe anything including tubes and analog.
BWWWAHHH!!!
No, please don't take away my bullsh!t buzzwords. How am I ever going to convey how supercalifragilistic the sound makes me feel deep inside.
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Come on now, sometimes a BS word is necessary, it's very difficult to put sound into a description. As an example I remember discussing the Adcom gfa-5500 and Feanor used the word "earthy" to describe the sound. Earthy sounds pretty strange to describe sound but if you've heard the amp "earthy" really hit the nail on the head as the amp was dark with a unique signature that earthy came as close to anything I've heard to describe it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
No you may not! :mad: I'm really sick of bullsh!t words like "holistic" used to decribe anything including tubes and analog.
Jesus Bill, relax would ya?!? If he used it to describe a digital product, would that have been ok? :rolleyes5:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Come on now, sometimes a BS word is necessary, it's very difficult to put sound into a description. As an example I remember discussing the Adcom gfa-5500 and Feanor used the word "earthy" to describe the sound. Earthy sounds pretty strange to describe sound but if you've heard the amp "earthy" really hit the nail on the head as the amp was dark with a unique signature that earthy came as close to anything I've heard to describe it.
Here's the problem; "Earthy" may mean something totally different to different people. From the smell of a newly planted field, to the scent of a dirt floored cellar. Trying to stick to words that have as close to standard meanings in the context that they are used is the hallmark of good reviewing. These words like "holistic" and "earthy are so vague that you might as well be casting a horoscope rather than doing a review. Good reviewers ban words like that from their reviews.
So, I'll have my SS glace' with a dollop of tube caramel please!
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Dear: Friends
Sorry to my limited english, but to my years of in search of best sounding amps, there is none that I feel can represent the best in terms of everything.
but, to me, if you'd want a full tube amp, that would be more of mid fluidity, more openess, and sweeter top end. depending on how you want your music to be..
but hybrid academy such as the kw musical fidelity (kilowatt series) will also be great in terms of dinamic swings and liveliness.
Of course one can not have all the benefits, but if you are looking for a stronger musical repro..go for the hybrid.. friend..
Thanks..
Jonathan
Singapore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffcin
Here's the problem; "Earthy" may mean something totally different to different people. From the smell of a newly planted field, to the scent of a dirt floored cellar. Trying to stick to words that have as close to standard meanings in the context that they are used is the hallmark of good reviewing. These words like "holistic" and "earthy are so vague that you might as well be casting a horoscope rather than doing a review. Good reviewers ban words like that from their reviews.
So, I'll have my SS glace' with a dollop of tube caramel please!
Yes but if you bothered to read the entire review you would get a good sense of the way he felt about both stereos. To focus on one word is the same as the morons who find one mistake in one minor point in a 5000 point theory and then discount the entire thing because they don't happen to like the stance taken as it doesn't fit with their own "lack of experience" but assumptions. Most people who get on that maker do so because if it is in fact true that they are "right" then that means a big chunk of their long time belief systems will crack. A lot of people who spend tens of thousands of dollars don't want to believe they threw their money away on comparative rubbish. That is why I give Kevin Credit. His belief was complete opposite - he trusted the measurements, he bought all the supposed "right" gear and yet he kept an open mind. Had some beat up less expensive gear delivered and it destroyed not only his mid-fi equipment masquerading as hi-fi but shattered all that he knew and accepted as the truth. Same gear did it to me.
He used the word Holistic - relating to or concerned with wholes or with complete systems rather than with the analysis of, treatment of, or dissection into parts
I have no problem with that term in audio. He is discussing Audio Note which is probably the only company in the industry (high end industry) that Truly looks at the "whole" (holistic) stereo system as one voice. Comparatively everyone else is building Frankenstein monsters that usually sound like Frankenstein looks. The word fits the company.
Far too many stereo systems sound like they're dissecting the album (when in reality it is usually the stereo sounding discombobulated into isolated parts. A holistic system sounds complete, of a piece, real whole. Nothing at all wrong with that term. In fact if one complains about that terms it's more than likely they have never heard a system that sounds "real," "whole," and "complete." The alternate is isolated separate out of step systems. Sounds like SS to me.
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Originally Posted by RGA
I have no problem with that term in audio. He is discussing Audio Note which is probably the only company in the industry (high end industry) that Truly looks at the "whole" (holistic) stereo system as one voice. Comparatively everyone else is building Frankenstein monsters that usually sound like Frankenstein looks. The word fits the company.
:rolleyes: Please do not to go down that route again....thank you
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Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
:rolleyes: Please do not to go down that route again....thank you
Digging up posts from 12 days ago - who is going down that route? Nice.
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