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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Oh, also, straight will output 5.1 if the source is 5.1. Pure direct will not. In fact, DTS & DD 5.1 will produce no sound at all when the receiver is in pure direct mode.
Makes perfect sense. If you need all the 5.1 decoding (which is why you have the receiver in the first place) then you would not want to be in direct mode.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Just to be clear, doesn't the "pure direct" bypass the DSP, (digital signal processing)? Of course, this definitely what you what if you're just trying to reroute the CD signal to a separate amplifier.
I suspect cheaper A/V receivers tend to have neither the "direct" function nor pre-amp outs.
Yes, that's what I'm trying to do- reroute the CD to a seperate amp.
The $400-ish Yamaha RX-V657 has the direct and pre outs. Sound good to me. The only problem I see so far with this plan is that there is no sub output in the direct mode.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW
Yup. Looks to have both straight and pure direct, from my looking at the manual. Only $400-ish. Has preouts. And I'd add an amp to the main speakers for power. So it might be everything I need (for now). But I didn't see anything in the 657 or 2500 manuals about the memory settings you mentioned. I wonder if the 657 has that- it's a lot cheaper than the 2500 and looks to have everything else I may want...
(except a true bypass/pure direct mode with sub usage...)
It's on page 65 of the 2500 manual. Didn't see it on the 657. Here is a chart comparing a few models.
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/compare/YPAO.htm
I know the 4600 has it also. But the amp is so good on the 4600 you may not need another amp to add to this. Although.... I'd love to have a Parasound Halo A21 Two-Channel Amplifier added to my system.
What kind of speakers are you getting? Have you picked those out yet?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Yes, the pure direct bypasses all proccessing. It gives out a very realistic sound. My speakers only go down to 38htz though so I need the sub. Using straight lets me use the sub but it's not quite as clean as the pure direct mode. Close, but when I switch back & forth I can hear the difference in the stereo imaging. It may be because I have my sub between the two main speakers. I haven't tried moving it to the outside yet. Moving soon so I've left things alone.
Interesting. Pure direct would be exactly what I'm looking for if it could output to the sub and actually did sound as good as a direct plug from the CD to amp.
When you switch between straight and direct, is the difference you hear because of the sub? Could you just unplug the sub and see if there's any difference?
The $400 657 is sounding to be very close to what I want, with the direct/straight, but maybe not quite there. Idunno...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW
Interesting. Pure direct would be exactly what I'm looking for if it could output to the sub and actually did sound as good as a direct plug from the CD to amp.
When you switch between straight and direct, is the difference you hear because of the sub? Could you just unplug the sub and see if there's any difference?
The $400 657 is sounding to be very close to what I want, with the direct/straight, but maybe not quite there. Idunno...
I'll give it a try when I get home tonight.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW
Interesting. Pure direct would be exactly what I'm looking for if it could output to the sub and actually did sound as good as a direct plug from the CD to amp.
When you switch between straight and direct, is the difference you hear because of the sub? Could you just unplug the sub and see if there's any difference?
The $400 657 is sounding to be very close to what I want, with the direct/straight, but maybe not quite there. Idunno...
Here's another thought. If the receiver in pure direct is sending left & right via the pre-outs to the 2 channel amp, can't the 2 channel amp feed the sub? Do they have sub outs?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
It's on page 65 of the 2500 manual. Didn't see it on the 657. Here is a chart comparing a few models.
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/compare/YPAO.htm
I know the 4600 has it also. But the amp is so good on the 4600 you may not need another amp to add to this. Although.... I'd love to have a Parasound Halo A21 Two-Channel Amplifier added to my system.
What kind of speakers are you getting? Have you picked those out yet?
I found the YPAO in the 657 manual, but it didn't mention different settings or memory for it....
Not sure about speakers. I'm still auditioning them. But the Totem Forests might be the front runners at the moment.
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Totem Forests
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW
I found the YPAO in the 657 manual, but it didn't mention different settings or memory for it....
Not sure about speakers. I'm still auditioning them. But the Totem Forests might be the front runners at the moment.
Nice front runners. I heard a pair of these a few months ago. Very clear sounding.
I don't think the 657 has the memory settings.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Here's another thought. If the receiver in pure direct is sending left & right via the pre-outs to the 2 channel amp, can't the 2 channel amp feed the sub? Do they have sub outs?
Not as far as I know. But maybe someone more knowledgeable can chime in on that.
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Many stereo amps ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Here's another thought. If the receiver in pure direct is sending left & right via the pre-outs to the 2 channel amp, can't the 2 channel amp feed the sub? Do they have sub outs?
Have "pre-out" jacks, (like many receivers), which are volume-controlled. These can be used to driver your sub.
However most subs do not have separate stereo line-level and "LFE", (Low Frequency Effects), inputs. With those that do, you can hook your stereo amp to the former and the A/V receiver output to the latter .
Otherwise you might possibly attach your stereo amp to the sub's high-level inputs, and the speakers to the sub's high-level outputs -- however this a very sub-optimal solution.:(
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Yes, you could, but ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW
OK, so if I have the CD plugged into both the receiver and amp, that amp has to be an integrated amp- so it has the plugs for this. I think I've got it now. And it would be nice to have a remote volume control on the integrated amp for stereo listening (I know they do exist for some).
Another question about this setup: When using the receiver for movies, I could also have the pre outs of the receiver go to the integrated amp. So I am using the integrated amp for both movies and music, correct?
Yes, you could; remember that the receiver pre-outs will include some of the receiver's processing and it's volume control, but this isn't a prohibitive problem. You would use the receiver's volume control for the over-all volume control, however you would have to pre-adjust the integrate's volume control so your main speaker's volume matches your surrounds. Since very few integrates have separate input volume levels for each source input, you would have to do this matching whenever you watched movies or TV.
But wait! Let's everyting in perspective: ;) Rather than a separate integrated amp, why not just just get a higher-quality, more powerful A/V receiver and be done with it? Bear in mind, to exceed the quality of a better receiver, you'll be paying $2000+ for the integrated.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW
Interesting. Pure direct would be exactly what I'm looking for if it could output to the sub and actually did sound as good as a direct plug from the CD to amp.
When you switch between straight and direct, is the difference you hear because of the sub? Could you just unplug the sub and see if there's any difference?
The $400 657 is sounding to be very close to what I want, with the direct/straight, but maybe not quite there. Idunno...
OK, after several hours of listening with my sub turned off, I have found that.... well.. I found that I love music. Oh yeah, pure direct still sounds different than straight. My guess is that it's the difference between analog and digital sound respectively. Not sure if either was the clear winner. On my older CD's the pure direct sounded better. On the newer music the straight sounded better, more balanced. Sorry that I couldn't come up with more than that for you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Yes, you could; remember that the receiver pre-outs will include some of the receiver's processing and it's volume control, but this isn't a prohibitive problem.
Got it. The only "prohibitive" part I see with that is the receiver being a part of the system, if it's cheap and not very good sounding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
You would use the receiver's volume control for the over-all volume control, however you would have to pre-adjust the integrate's volume control so your main speaker's volume matches your surrounds. Since very few integrates have separate input volume levels for each source input, you would have to do this matching whenever you watched movies or TV.
I understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
But wait! Let's everyting in perspective: ;) Rather than a separate integrated amp, why not just just get a higher-quality, more powerful A/V receiver and be done with it? Bear in mind, to exceed the quality of a better receiver, you'll be paying $2000+ for the integrated.
Exactly. So I'm thinking about the $2,000 Arcam DVR300.
Here is my hesitation with a $2,000 receiver: It may become obsolete later. So I am out $2,000 a few years down the road. But if I spent $400 on an A/V receiver and, say, $1600 on a decent amp, I'll always have the amp to use, but can view the $400 receiver as disposable. That said, I'm not really into all the latest features. I just want music to sound really, really good. And movies to sound pretty good with all the surround and bass.
If I could do a side-by-side comparison of the $400 and $2000 receivers both using the same amp, that would make the decision easy. Tought to do, though.
You see where I'm coming from?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
OK, after several hours of listening with my sub turned off, I have found that.... well.. I found that I love music. Oh yeah, pure direct still sounds different than straight. My guess is that it's the difference between analog and digital sound respectively. Not sure if either was the clear winner. On my older CD's the pure direct sounded better. On the newer music the straight sounded better, more balanced. Sorry that I couldn't come up with more than that for you.
Thanks for doing the test!
So no clear winner. Very interesting!
And isn't it always great when you refind your love for good music? That's excellent. I fully expect that, once I get my fancy stereo setup, I'm going to want to go back through all my old CD's. :)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW
Thanks for doing the test!
So no clear winner. Very interesting!
And isn't it always great when you refind your love for good music? That's excellent. I fully expect that, once I get my fancy stereo setup, I'm going to want to go back through all my old CD's. :)
Anytime, sorry I couldn't be more helpfull.
Yes, it is great to hear music played on a good system. I had forgotten how much I liked some old CD's.
I think that you'll have a blast going through your old & new CD's. You may even find that you like your DVD's more than you thought you would. Even some basic TV can have great sound. I've become hooked. Can't get enough.
By the way, the Arcam DVR300 you are thinking about is a very good unit.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Anytime, sorry I couldn't be more helpfull.
Yes, it is great to hear music played on a good system. I had forgotten how much I liked some old CD's.
I think that you'll have a blast going through your old & new CD's. You may even find that you like your DVD's more than you thought you would. Even some basic TV can have great sound. I've become hooked. Can't get enough.
By the way, the Arcam DVR300 you are thinking about is a very good unit.
Yeah, the Arcam is, indeed, very good. I'm trying to decide if I go $400 Yamaha plus amp or $2,000 Arcam. Either way costs about the same, but the amp I'd always be able to use. The Arcam could become obsolete, which is painful at $2,000, but $400 isn't a big deal. But if the sound quality is really that different... I'd really like to do a side-by-side test.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW
Yeah, the Arcam is, indeed, very good. I'm trying to decide if I go $400 Yamaha plus amp or $2,000 Arcam. Either way costs about the same, but the amp I'd always be able to use. The Arcam could become obsolete, which is painful at $2,000, but $400 isn't a big deal. But if the sound quality is really that different... I'd really like to do a side-by-side test.
I don't think that the $400 Yammie would color your sound for 2 channel very much. But it can not come close to the Arcam in HT. It will also have some trouble with 4 ohm or less speakers. Something to remember when you pick out your surrounds, center, etc...
I struggle with the same questions. Do I add a good 2 channel amp to the system I have or go all the way with a 5 or 7 channel amp? Or upgrade my Yammie to the 4600 that can drive tougher speakers? (looking to get 4 - 5 ohm maggies for my whole system) Some days I lean one way and others, the other way. The only good thing is that no matter what we do, it will sound better than what we have now. Best? That's a moving target.
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Yep, I do
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW
...
Here is my hesitation with a $2,000 receiver: It may become obsolete later. So I am out $2,000 a few years down the road. But if I spent $400 on an A/V receiver and, say, $1600 on a decent amp, I'll always have the amp to use, but can view the $400 receiver as disposable. That said, I'm not really into all the latest features. I just want music to sound really, really good. And movies to sound pretty good with all the surround and bass.
If I could do a side-by-side comparison of the $400 and $2000 receivers both using the same amp, that would make the decision easy. Tought to do, though.
You see where I'm coming from?
Personally if I were building a multi-channel-capable system from scratch, I would do pretty much what you're doing :cool: . More specifically, I would buy a good receiver plus a really good stereo power amp (rather than integrated) for the front speakers -- of course, I'm of the opinion that the power section is more critical than the pre-amp section: not everyone agrees.
I'm not sure what receiver I'd go for, (maybe Denon?). For the power amp I check out the NuForce Reference 8 really carefully ... http://www.nuforce.com/products.htm
Of course there is yet another option. That is to buy a "pre-processor" which is basically a multi-channel pre-amp with Dolby, DTS, etc., and DSP capabilities -- the front end of an A/V receiver if you will. You then combine the "pre-pro" with various combinations of monoblock, stereo, and/or multi-channel power amps.
In the "pre-pro" scenario you loss very little, maybe gain, flexibility over the receiver + integrated option.
For a start, look at these links, but note that pre-pros are bit pricey ...
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hi - Ive been reading this post and have a similar question: how do I connect the pre-outs from av amp to stereo amp?
There are input plugs on the back of the stereo amp ie: CD, DVD, Tuner etc... am I supposed to just connect the pre-outs to any one of these? does my stereo amp need to have "pre-in" plugs, if there is such thing?
thanks.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Personally if I were building a multi-channel-capable system from scratch, I would do pretty much what you're doing :cool: . More specifically, I would buy a good receiver plus a really good stereo power amp (rather than integrated) for the front speakers -- of course, I'm of the opinion that the power section is more critical than the pre-amp section: not everyone agrees.
Yeah, I liked this building a system from scratch approach. :)
Yes, a good amp(s) is important, I realize that. There are so many, it's tough to narrow the field down. I've never heard of NuForce- I'll have a look. I've heard good things about the Odyssey Stratos, among many others.
One day of speaker shopping, I heard some speakers (B&W 703) powered by 2 McIntosh monoblocks. That was maybe 300 W and $6000 for each speaker, or thereabout. Oh boy was that nice. They even look pretty. But way over budget for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
I'm not sure what receiver I'd go for, (maybe Denon?).
Well, I did get a chance to compare some Yamaha and Denon's side by side. To me, there was a noticeably better, clearer sound from the Yamahas at a given price. So Denon is out for me. I guess the 2 extremes are the $400 Yamaha or the $2000 Arcam. Both do everything I want, it's just a sound quality issue. There are some in between options like the $1200 Rotel 1056.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Of course there is yet another option. That is to buy a "pre-processor" which is basically a multi-channel pre-amp with Dolby, DTS, etc., and DSP capabilities -- the front end of an A/V receiver if you will. You then combine the "pre-pro" with various combinations of monoblock, stereo, and/or multi-channel power amps.
In the "pre-pro" scenario you loss very little, maybe gain, flexibility over the receiver + integrated option.
For a start, look at these links, but note that pre-pros are bit pricey ...
Yeah, pre pro's are pretty pricey. That's why I started this whole confusing post. To see if I could get a receiver to do the work of a pre pro without degrading the sound too much. I don't think I'm ready to spend the cash on a pre pro just yet. The $400 Yamaha receiver would do all the processing I would desire and be disposable if I want to get new processing later. But the sound quality might be a compromise. The $2000 Arcam receiver would also do all the processing I need,probably not compromise the sound, and allow addition of many amps later. Oh, plus it has an amp so I wouldn't need to buy an amp right away. So I can't really see any reason to spend more than $2000 on pres or pros. (For now)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
I don't think that the $400 Yammie would color your sound for 2 channel very much. But it can not come close to the Arcam in HT. It will also have some trouble with 4 ohm or less speakers. Something to remember when you pick out your surrounds, center, etc...
I struggle with the same questions. Do I add a good 2 channel amp to the system I have or go all the way with a 5 or 7 channel amp? Or upgrade my Yammie to the 4600 that can drive tougher speakers? (looking to get 4 - 5 ohm maggies for my whole system) Some days I lean one way and others, the other way. The only good thing is that no matter what we do, it will sound better than what we have now. Best? That's a moving target.
What is your percentage of music vs. movies? For me (95% music) I would spend more on the amp for the 2 main speakers. At the expense of the surround and center speakers- just run those off the receiver amp.
But, you know, it's a fun hobby. And that moving target is a good thing. :D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincin
hi - Ive been reading this post and have a similar question: how do I connect the pre-outs from av amp to stereo amp?
There are input plugs on the back of the stereo amp ie: CD, DVD, Tuner etc... am I supposed to just connect the pre-outs to any one of these? does my stereo amp need to have "pre-in" plugs, if there is such thing?
thanks.
Well, you might want advice from someone more learned than I, but...
Just run a cable for each left and right from the pre outs of the receiver to the in of the amp. Then run speaker wire from the amp out to the speakers. That's it. A regular amp will just have the left and right inputs and the left and right speaker outputs. (Unless it's a "monoblock" amp, in which case you'll need 2 amps, one for each speaker.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincin
hi - Ive been reading this post and have a similar question: how do I connect the pre-outs from av amp to stereo amp?
There are input plugs on the back of the stereo amp ie: CD, DVD, Tuner etc... am I supposed to just connect the pre-outs to any one of these? does my stereo amp need to have "pre-in" plugs, if there is such thing?
thanks.
Are there other inputs on the back of your amp? I guess yes per your etc. Do you have a pair that say receiver or proccessor?
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Caveat
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW
...
Yes, a good amp(s) is important, I realize that. There are so many, it's tough to narrow the field down. I've never heard of NuForce- I'll have a look. I've heard good things about the Odyssey Stratos, among many others.
...
My mention of the NuForce is by no means a hard-and-fast recommendation. A more conservative, i.e. "safer" choice, would be the PS Audio GCA-100. As for Odyssey, it is highly regarded and makes 2, 3, and 5 channel models at quite reasonable prices.
I appreciate your comments on Yamaha vs. Denon.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
My mention of the NuForce is by no means a hard-and-fast recommendation. A more conservative, i.e. "safer" choice, would be the PS Audio GCA-100. As for Odyssey, it is highly regarded and makes 2, 3, and 5 channel models at quite reasonable prices.
I appreciate your comments on Yamaha vs. Denon.
Yeah, for amps there are a zillion out there to choose from. In the reviews section of this web site, the reviews on the Odyssey amps are pretty amazing. Something like an average of 4.97/5 with 50 reviews, or something like that.
I'm guessing that using an Arcam AVR300 as a pre pro wouldn't sound too far off using a dedicated pre pro, based on what I've been reading. I did get a chance to listen to the Arcam in a shop and it was very nice, but so weren't the speakers. So tought to tell anything about the receiver, alone.
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