Replacement for NAD PP-2 phono pre

[clapton1980]

Hi everyone -

I have a Rega P2 turntable and NAD PP-2 phono preamp. I recently upgraded to a Benz MC Silver cartridge.

However, the MC input on the NAD appears to be busted. So I'm using the MM input instead, which sounds fine, but I'm not confident that I'm getting the most out of my cartridge.

I know you don't absolutely need a MC phono stage with a high output MC cartridge, but what should I do? Keep the disabled NAD PP-2 and continue to run through MM? Replace it with the PP-3? Upgrade to a better pre? ($300-400 budget tops).

Rest of the setup: NAD 320BEE amp + B&W 685's.

Thanks guys. Curious to hear feedback.

Best,
Clapton

[poppachubby]

You absolutely can't continue with the NAD in MM mode. No good. There is a member here and quite a few at Audio Asylum that rave about the Graham Slee Gram Amp 2 SE. It retails for around $400, so it fits your budget. It would be a HUGE step away from the NAD and into high fidelity analog.

Of course, as mentioned you could just run your HOMC into an amp. This however won't do your beautiful cart any real justice.

[JohnMichael]

The Benz MC Silver is a high output moving coil cartridge that would work best in the moving magnet input. The output from the Silver is most likely driving the moving coil input into distortion which gives the impression it is not working correctly. Poppachubby made a good suggestion that the Gram Amp 2SE which is a moving magnet only phono preamp would be a good choice. Also for an inexpensive moving magnet phono preamp check out the Cambridge 540P or the 640P if you think one day you will need low output moving coil abilities.

[poppachubby]

The Benz MC Silver is a high output moving coil cartridge that would work best in the moving magnet input. The output from the Silver is most likely driving the moving coil input into distortion which gives the impression it is not working correctly. Poppachubby made a good suggestion that the Gram Amp 2SE which is a moving magnet only phono preamp would be a good choice. Also for an inexpensive moving magnet phono preamp check out the Cambridge 540P or the 640P if you think one day you will need low output moving coil abilities.

The 540/640P isn't a lateral move? There is no adjustable output on either, is there?

[02audionoob]

I'm going to suggest the Clearaudio Nano so you can choose your own loading and gain, rather than being stuck with only one MM impedance option (47k) and one MM gain option (usually around 39 or 40 dB) that might not be enough.

http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaud...2&category=401

[JohnMichael]

In case the NAD is not working correctly I suggested the Cambridge Audio 540P and 640P. They are both well made and positively reviewed products for not much money. They both are good moving magnet preamps. My complaint with the 640P amd the Benz Gold was the lack of dynamics. Since you are using the high output MC Silver the moving magnet settings will work.

[02audionoob]

Since the 640P provides 39 dB gain on the MM inputs and the MC Silver puts out 2 mV, it seems like it would be a bit below optimum volume level. If I were in the OP's situation, I'd probably like to have more like 45 dB gain if I could get it. Also, with my own HOMC cartridge, 47k sounds bright to me, so I adjust it down to 1k...personal preference. Of course, some people go the other way...raising their impedance setting to 47k with a LOMC cartridge.

[JohnMichael]

Since the 640P provides 39 dB gain on the MM inputs and the MC Silver puts out 2 mV, it seems like it would be a bit below optimum volume level. If I were in the OP's situation, I'd probably like to have more like 45 dB gain if I could get it. Also, with my own HOMC cartridge, 47k sounds bright to me, so I adjust it down to 1k...personal preference. Of course, some people go the other way...raising their impedance setting to 47k with a LOMC cartridge.

Sadly there are not many if any phono preamps that are adjustable for loading and gain in the OP's price range. Your previous uggestion of the Nano is about the only one I know of but have never heard it.

[02audionoob]

That's why I proposed the Nano, but I too have not heard it.

[JohnMichael]

Since the 640P provides 39 dB gain on the MM inputs and the MC Silver puts out 2 mV, it seems like it would be a bit below optimum volume level. If I were in the OP's situation, I'd probably like to have more like 45 dB gain if I could get it. Also, with my own HOMC cartridge, 47k sounds bright to me, so I adjust it down to 1k...personal preference. Of course, some people go the other way...raising their impedance setting to 47k with a LOMC cartridge.

A little off topic but if your cartridge is sounding bright could it be the VTA? I have read that with long profile stylus if the VTA is off the cartridge can sound bright or dull depending on how it is set.

[poppachubby]

Wow, that Clearaudio is a nice piece. Nice rec noob. I will second that, hadn't seen it before today.

[JohnMichael]

Technische Daten - Technical data:
Verstärkung bei 1 kHz: max. 69 dB (MC-Betrieb/Mode)
Amplification: max. 49 dB (MM-Betrieb/Mode)
Verstärkung / Gain control von / from 34 to 67 dB
Eingangsimpedanz:
Input load: 47 kΩ / 220pF / MM / MC
MM / MC – Eingang: schaltbar mit Steckbrücke (auf Unterseite)
MM / MC - input: switchable (at bottom)
Schneidekennlinien-Entzerrung: Nach RIAA (Zeitkonst.:
RIAA: 75μs / 318μs / 3180μs)
RIAA Genauigkeit: ± 0,4 dB
RIAA accuracy:
Klirrfaktor: 0,04% (IEC A)
THD:
Signal/Rauschabstand: 67 dB (A) (MC-Betrieb/Mode)
S/N: 84 dB (A) (MM-Betrieb/Mode)
Übersprechdämpfung: > 80 dB bei 1 kHz,
Channel separation: gegenüberliegender Kanal
kurzgeschlossen
Maximale Ausgangsspannung: 10 V eff (1 kHz)
Max. output voltage:
Spannungsversorgung: 16 V AC (< 500 mA)
Power supply: (externes Steckernetzteil,
Kunststoffgehäuse)
(external power supply)
Ausgänge: asymmetrisch (CINCH)
Outputs: asymmetrical (RCA)
Gewicht: ca. 600 g (Vorverstärker und Netzteil)
Weight: (Preamp and power supply)
Abmessungen ( b x t x h ): 80 mm x 106 mm x 25 mm
Dimensions ( w x l x h ):
(Technische Änderungen vorbehalten -
Technical changes are subject without notification)


After checking the specs on the ClearAudio site the preamp does not seem as flexible as the needledoctor write up would have you think.

[02audionoob]

Regarding the Nano, I think it's a continuous gain dial on top and load jumpers on the bottom. This review seems to explain...

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/c...dio4/nano.html

With my own setup, I've got the VTA exactly horizontal, but my ears are very sensitive to fatigue. I therefore like a little less of the highs than most people. Going from 47k to 1k with an MM cartridge is too severe, but with HOMC it works nicely.

[poppachubby]

You actually have to add resistors to the board to convert to MC. Not convenient, but does give alot of credit to their client base. I think it's a great idea, but wouldn't be great if you're the type to jump from cart to cart. I know right now I have a couple of headshells loaded up and I have been enjoying switching. They're all MM, but I think you get my meaning.

[02audionoob]

The resistors are a bit of a drawback, but really the best feature of the Nano is the continuously variable gain. A cartridge output of 2 mV seems like a tough fit, gain-wise. The Nano looks like it could solve that.

For my own purposes, I like being able to use the load as my treble control, since my integrated amp has no tone controls. That's not something most people would necessarily need.

[JohnMichael]

With my own setup, I've got the VTA exactly horizontal, but my ears are very sensitive to fatigue. I therefore like a little less of the highs than most people. Going from 47k to 1k with an MM cartridge is too severe, but with HOMC it works nicely.

Here is some good advice on setting VTA from PS Audio.
http://www.psaudio.com/ps/how-to/how...f-a-turntable/

[02audionoob]

Here is some good advice on setting VTA from PS Audio.
http://www.psaudio.com/ps/how-to/how...f-a-turntable/

Thanks for posting that. It's challenging to get VTA optimized when you consider the 180g re-issues. But since I have it the way I like it with the load at 1k, I can combat the dark tone of the 180g records by adjusting the load to 47k for only those records.

My PS Audio GCPH also has a continuously variable gain dial, like the Nano, but it sells for beyond the OP's budget, even used.

[jrhymeammo]

I'm not sure what your preference is but I wouldn't run the Silver thru MC input. The cartridge is designed to be plugged into a normal MM 47k ohm inputs. I don't know the exact spec of the PP2, but it's probably has input impedance of 100ohm. Having additional 20 or so dB gain via MC input may seem like a good idea, but playing a 47k cart into 100ohm will muff the sound quality, especially in high frequency sound.

Your NAD receiver should have around 50 watts of power and it should offer plenty of power for your B&W. 685, which are more than suffiently efficient. So the MM gain stage in the PP2 is enough for the Benz cartridge.

How big is your room, and how loud do you listen to music?
If you have a large room and prefer to rock-out, then 40+ dB gain from MM stage maybe what you are looking for.

You have already spent good money on a great cartridge, don't skimp out on a Phono preamp. If you can spend more money, then I would go for a used Audio Research PH3. I think it offers 54dB gain in 47k inputs. Resistors can be soldered on for different impedance for mid-LOMC cartridges.
But of course these are plenty of other great options out there around your budget.
http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/fsb.pl?preaphon&1&ctg&st1

[jrhymeammo]

You actually have to add resistors to the board to convert to MC. Not convenient, but does give alot of credit to their client base. I think it's a great idea, but wouldn't be great if you're the type to jump from cart to cart. I know right now I have a couple of headshells loaded up and I have been enjoying switching. They're all MM, but I think you get my meaning.

That will alter the input impedance, but I'm pretty sure series of resistors won't offer additional gain which LOMC desparetly needs. Did I miss something?

[poppachubby]

That will alter the input impedance, but I'm pretty sure series of resistors won't offer additional gain which LOMC desparetly needs. Did I miss something?

It has continuous gain control via a knob. I think you missed 02audionoob's link to the 6moons review.

[02audionoob]

That will alter the input impedance, but I'm pretty sure series of resistors won't offer additional gain which LOMC desparetly needs. Did I miss something?

The continously variable gain adjustment from 34 to 67 dB would provide the optimum gain for probably any cartridge available, including the OP's Benz MC Silver.

[clapton1980]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.

The Graham Slee and Clearaudio options both sound great, but definitely on the upper-end of my budget. Other folks have also recommended the Rega Fono and Bellari VP130 (though would the Bellari be a fit w/ my MC Benz?)

More info on my listening setup: small NYC apartment, hence the bookshelf speakers. Won't be driving these crazy-loud, except on occasion.

[02audionoob]

The Bellari's gain is too low for the MC Silver. There would be no doubt in my mind on that one.

[clapton1980]

...also, I'm not opposed to buying used, at all. In fact I've bought most everything in my setup on Audiogon and trust it.

[jrhymeammo]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.

The Graham Slee and Clearaudio options both sound great, but definitely on the upper-end of my budget. Other folks have also recommended the Rega Fono and Bellari VP130 (though would the Bellari be a fit w/ my MC Benz?)

More info on my listening setup: small NYC apartment, hence the bookshelf speakers. Won't be driving these crazy-loud, except on occasion.

I think Rega, Cambridge, or Bellari will be a lateral move.

I would try out somem like this. If you don't like it, you can always sell on Agon without much loss.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....-Gram-Amp-2-SE

Lehmann Black Cube shows up once in a while, and it's been proven by audiophiles over the years.