the quest for a new preamp

[Ajani]

Signal purity aside, I think those buffers are for the most part, false economy. I am always telling people to continue saving for a true tube pre. The difference in SQ will far exceed the difference in money.

There's the GF buffer's and also the Bellari phono pre's which are great products, but I think through reviews and such, people have been misled as to how good they are.

I think we should take it a step further and blame Musical Fidelity for making the tube buffer famous with their X 10-D & Stereophile Class A rated X 10 V3 tube buffers...

And yes I do hear that a tube pre is supposed to be quite a big step up from just dumping a buffer in your system... But the buffers will always be an attractive first step due to their low price... A tube pre is a much bigger risk...

BTW, I don't think this thread is descending into tube vs SS (I hope not anyway), as both clearly have their own advantages and disadvantages... The question is just whether they can easily be mixed to get a best of both worlds hybrid...

For the record, the best sounding (attainable) system I've heard used a Musical Fidelity hybrid integrated amp; tube pre and SS power...

[poppachubby]

The question is just whether they can easily be mixed to get a best of both worlds hybrid...

For the record, the best sounding (attainable) system I've heard used a Musical Fidelity hybrid integrated amp; tube pre and SS power...

The answer is..."As easily as SS/SS and tube/tube."

It just seems to me that it's being implied that a person can just slap in any mirrored technology and not have to worry about synergy. This of course is completely false.

Introducing a new piece of gear, especially as significant as a pre, is a risk anyway you look at it. harley's system is well established, who's to say if SS will voice it better than tube?

Much like you, I have had HUGE success with mixed systems. I just removed an SS pre from my main system, and put in tubes. I am still wondering if I like it better or not. I will put in esoteric tubes before making a full decision.

Anyhow I'm not trying to be a killjoy, but this is usually how the fun starts.

[Ajani]

The answer is..."As easily as SS/SS and tube/tube."

It just seems to me that it's being implied that a person can just slap in any mirrored technology and not have to worry about synergy. This of course is completely false.

Introducing a new piece of gear, especially as significant as a pre, is a risk anyway you look at it. harley's system is well established, who's to say if SS will voice it better than tube?

Much like you, I have had HUGE success with mixed systems. I just removed an SS pre from my main system, and put in tubes. I am still wondering if I like it better or not. I will put in esoteric tubes before making a full decision.

Anyhow I'm not trying to be a killjoy, but this is usually how the fun starts.

Dang, that's a good point!!! Just mixing in a SS with another SS is no guarantee of success... Synergy is everything... It's why I generally like to stick to one brand (when possible) rather than playing mix and match... Usually (though not always) going with one brand means you can expect good system synergy...

Mix and match is great if you are buying used on A'gon and can easily try out and sell gear if you don't like it... Not so great if you are buying at MSRP, unless you can get a free in home trial...

[poppachubby]

Mix and match is great if you are buying used on A'gon and can easily try out and sell gear if you don't like it... Not so great if you are buying at MSRP, unless you can get a free in home trial...

I agree fully. Salvatore has a great snippet about this topic. He basically says never to buy new unless you are 100% certain about the product, it's sound in your system and that you in fact want to keep it for some time. This way you almost never lose money except for shipping perhaps, but even then, money can be made on an item occasionaly.

I know where harley is coming from, it's a headache to think about buying and returning/selling. This is unfortunately the cost of getting exactly the right sound for yourself. I am fortunate to have 2 local shops who between the 2, have a wide variety of brands. I can't count how many times I have been able to audition an item, and find out it's not for me, only because of these stores.

My system is done, at least for several years and quite frankly I am happy about it. I don't particularily enjoy the work that must go into it, but it's most definitely worth it.

I think if harley has any curiousity about tubes, the only solution will be to try something out.

[Feanor]

Dang, that's a good point!!! Just mixing in a SS with another SS is no guarantee of success... Synergy is everything... It's why I generally like to stick to one brand (when possible) rather than playing mix and match... Usually (though not always) going with one brand means you can expect good system synergy...

Mix and match is great if you are buying used on A'gon and can easily try out and sell gear if you don't like it... Not so great if you are buying at MSRP, unless you can get a free in home trial...

Damn this synergy thing! For course it's true you can have bad synergy, but you are much less likely to have it if you have components that are (1) well designed for output & input impedance, and (2) inherently clean and neutral sounding.

As for output / input impedance, a ratio of 1:10 is likely to be just fine, though some argue that 1:100 is better. Thus my Sonic Frontiers tube preamp is 300 ohms output and my current Class-D-Audio amp is a conventional, (for S/S), 47k ohms, a nice 1:156 ratio. But for some reason it is tube equipment that is likely to have wacky output/input impedances, e.g. a 1200 output preamp matched with a 10k input power amp could problematic.

A couple of things to note: first, the manufacturers' usual stated reason for tube buffers is better impedance matching. Secondly, tube preamps don't have to have poor output impedance, (though many do); e.g. cathode-follower designs, (such as the Sonic Frontiers), typically present a good output impedance.

Another thing is that some tube preamps (and amps) are more neutral than others. E.g. at least for older models, Conrad Johnson models were considered 'warn' and generally 'tube-like', while Audio Research were more neutral. (Mr Peabody assures us that current CJ efforts are not so excessively tubey.) Sonic Frontier was notoriously neutral, i.e. neutral-to-fault according to the taste of some tubophiles. Actually, I agree with the sentiment. When I first installed the SF the character was exactly like the passive pre I'd been using previously, (Adcom 750); to get it sounding even a bit "tube-like" I had to do a lot of tube rolling.

[Ajani]

I agree fully. Salvatore has a great snippet about this topic. He basically says never to buy new unless you are 100% certain about the product, it's sound in your system and that you in fact want to keep it for some time. This way you almost never lose money except for shipping perhaps, but even then, money can be made on an item occasionaly.

I know where harley is coming from, it's a headache to think about buying and returning/selling. This is unfortunately the cost of getting exactly the right sound for yourself. I am fortunate to have 2 local shops who between the 2, have a wide variety of brands. I can't count how many times I have been able to audition an item, and find out it's not for me, only because of these stores.

My system is done, at least for several years and quite frankly I am happy about it. I don't particularily enjoy the work that must go into it, but it's most definitely worth it.

I think if harley has any curiousity about tubes, the only solution will be to try something out.

That is one area where I have no questions about Salvatore's advice... If I had a good used market here I'd have a great time trying out different brands... Sadly cuz I have to buy just about anything without auditioning (current models anyway), I do as Feanor suggested and look for fairly neutral products (based on reviews and user feedback)... Actually I'm willing to have one non-neutral product in the chain to add excitement or warmth, so if things don't quite sound right I know what to ditch...

[harley .guy07]

I am not a fan of adding things into the signal path like a tube buffer but I am thinking different thoughts about preamps right now as I am starting to get a interest in the tube preamp thing and some of the research I have done has backed up some peoples claims about putting a tube pre with ss amps. Some are against it and some are for it. Theres really only one way to see if it works for me and that is to try it. I will be checking the gon to see what is out there as I have been already. I am just thinking that buying a ss preamp that is middle of the road will not give me a lot more than what I have now. Maybe a little but less bright and better soundstaging but overall I am looking for vast improvements if I am going to spend the kind of money I am looking at spending.

[harley .guy07]

I will add that a higher end SS preamp would be a big improvement over my receiver don't get me wrong but I am looking for a little bit more involvement form my system. My speakers are great. My source components are great and I still like my adcom power amp even though it seems to be a controversial piece nowadays but I still like it but I know for music my Yamaha is the weakest link in a big way and I am looking for something that will put a bit more emotion in my music not just the detail and dynamics which are there now in a big way. If I could get the dynamics and detail I have now with more emotion to the music I would be happy.

[Mr Peabody]

True, CJ's rep was a "glowing" midrange. The CT-6 is a departure and I'd bet their other higher end preamps are. I haven't heard the Classic but with a name like that I wouldn't count on neutrality. It would be interesting to hear how ARC would sound with the darker Adcom.

[poppachubby]

If I could get the dynamics and detail I have now with more emotion to the music I would be happy.

Exactly. A decent tube pre will extend detail and warmth to the mid range, which is quite frankly where a large part of emotion lives. Things like vocals will be greatly enhanced. The other difference would be in presentation with tubes adding more dimensionality to the imaging and staging.

On really well produced LPs, with only 2 or 3 players, the staging I get is incredible. Height, depth and fully 3D. I find the effect is lessened the more players there are.

I would also like to add harley that IMO, the heart of musical emotion is mostly in dynamic range. Quiet/loud is the biggest part of how an artist conveys music emotionally. Anything you can do to extend your range, ie. reduce noise, would be the best way to bring out more emotion.

Of all the small things I have done to tweak and improve, the efforts to increase low level detail have been the most rewarding. Not just for the reason of hearing everything in a mix, but rather for the increased dynamic range.

[frenchmon]

...and let us not forget...emotion and romance has a lot to do with speakers as well. Some just dont have it.

[Mr Peabody]

"Emotion" is another subjective, we all react to different aspects of the musical presentation. So what brings me emotion out of my music may not be a trigger for some one else. There's plenty of gear, even high end, I would not own, but it must bring some one emotion or the companys wouldn't still be in business. it's not accurate to say "a speaker doesn't have emotion", you may even find those who agree, it's more accurate to say, "I find no emotion with this speaker". As an example, the riff between solids state and tube owners, do you think some one like RGA would find emotion in Krell or Bryston? Where those who love Krell and Bryston wouldn't find emotion in tubes, it wouldn't bring them the satisfaction they get from the SS powerhouses.

[frenchmon]

would you say some speakers are completely free of coloration? ...and that some display some level of coloration? Would you say some speakers have a better presentation with the voices and warmth? With the degree of warmth ... presentation, color and dynamic....some speakers are said to display emotion and romance....but yet this has to touch the listener or not.

[harley .guy07]

I like the Dynaudio sound as I have heard it through several systems and I know the issues with my system is not my speakers. I do know that I am running a very good dac and disc player and a good amplifier and this is all going through a good receiver but I am expecting too much out of it with the caliber of equipment around it. I am fine with it for HT but for music I am quite confident that it is surely my week link and I need a dedicated preamp. I am just at a crossroads as too which direction to go with a preamp. But for right now I am leaning towards the tube idea because of the things that I am missing in my system seem to be tubes strong suit.

[frenchmon]

Hi Harley....IF you like the sound of your speakers...the Dyns, maybe you would be better serverd to look for gear with a more lively sound rather than something that was nutral or laid back.

[harley .guy07]

I am not looking to change the sound character of my system, as far as my tastes are concerned the character is great I am just looking for more emotion or depth in the sound. There are times when a system can give you great dynamics and balance in your sound but the only thing that is missing is that emotion or soul to the music and to me the speakers have nothing to do with it because I have heard dynaudios have this soul and adcom amps as well, And I know my Dac and transport are not the issue but running a mid level receiver as a preamp is most likely the soul robbing culprit of the sound. My Yamaha gives me good balance and dynamics and I am glad for that and I know that adcom and dynaudio sound great together so everything is pointing towards my yamaha which is great for theater but it just does not have the soul I want. I guess that is par for the source since my receiver is probably the cheapest part of my two channel system and for that matter the only piece in it that is mass market variety or Dept. store variety.

[Feanor]

I am not looking to change the sound character of my system, as far as my tastes are concerned the character is great I am just looking for more emotion or depth in the sound. There are times when a system can give you great dynamics and balance in your sound but the only thing that is missing is that emotion or soul to the music ....

Are we supposed to know what your purely subjective terms like "emotion", "depth of sound", "soul" of the music actually mean? Please be more objective in you desciptions. As it is, it sounds like so much humbug.

Maybe start by get yourself a classic tube preamp like a '70s CJ which coats the music with chocolate icing and see if that does it for you.

Or possibly your're just getting bored listening to music; next time you go to switch on you hi-fi, go watch football or something instead.

[harley .guy07]

Are we supposed to know what your purely subjective terms like "emotion", "depth of sound", "soul" of the music actually mean? Please be more objective in you desciptions. As it is, it sounds like so much humbug.

Maybe start by get yourself a classic tube preamp like a '70s CJ which coats the music with chocolate icing and see if that does it for you.

Or possibly your're just getting bored listening to music; next time you go to switch on you hi-fi, go watch football or something instead.

Believe me I am not bored listening to music and I have plenty of other things I do that split up the free time I have, I ride harleys, I am a gun target shooter, I play music instruments, and plus I am starting to attend a university for electrical engineering classes. So I have plenty to keep me busy and I don't think what I am saying is humbug. Sometimes your system just has a slight bit of something missing from it and there is no harm in asking a few forum friends for their advise, if you are bothered by this then go look at someone else's thread that does not sound so humbug. If you ever heard a guitar played through an amp that does not have soul to it or emotion to the sound, then go to a local guitar shop and listen to someone play some blues through a dry amp with dry sound then let someone play a fender strat through a vintage fender 410 amp and you will know what I mean.

[Trinity]

Harley,

Are you searching for a better SQ in your HT or 2ch?

[harley .guy07]

Harley,

Are you searching for a better SQ in your HT or 2ch?

I am pretty satisfied with my theater setup as I listen to music a lot more seriously as I listen to my theater when I play movies or watch tv. Music is one of my passions and that what I am concerned more with.

[Trinity]

So you use the same set up for both HT and Music?

I am pretty satisfied with my theater setup as I listen to music a lot more seriously as I listen to my theater when I play movies or watch tv. Music is one of my passions and that what I am concerned more with.

[02audionoob]

I'm still not finished reading this thread but it's tempting me to try my Adcom GFA-545II on the outputs of my Audio Research CA50, just for grins.

[Feanor]

...
Sometimes your system just has a slight bit of something missing from it and there is no harm in asking a few forum friends for their advise, if you are bothered by this then go look at someone else's thread that does not sound so humbug. If you ever heard a guitar played through an amp that does not have soul to it or emotion to the sound, then go to a local guitar shop and listen to someone play some blues through a dry amp with dry sound then let someone play a fender strat through a vintage fender 410 amp and you will know what I mean.

I'm sorry if I sounded a bit rude. The trouble is that I have been listening for terms like "soul" for a long time and still don't have a satisfactory defintion.

Perhaps the problem is that I listen almost exclusively to classical music, including large-scale orchestral and choral works. Here instrument separation, (i.e transparency; "air"), and accurate instrument timbres are highly important. These qualities -- to some extent -- cannot totally coexist with what I construe when people talk about "soul" (for example). The fact is that string instruments and brass can sound quite strident, (or "harsh" of you will). If instruments are sounding strident -- either because that's they way were played, or because that was the character of the recording venue, or that was the decission of the recording engineer -- then that's the way I want to hear. Thanks, but I don't want any "soul" added to the sound.

[poppachubby]

I'm sorry if I sounded a bit rude. The trouble is that I have been listening for terms like "soul" for a long time and still don't have a satisfactory defintion.

Perhaps the problem is that I listen almost exclusively to classical music, including large-scale orchestral and choral works.

That's exactly the problem, traditionally, classical listeners defined music as a strictly celebral activity.

I know EXACTLY what harley was talking about, because it was the same path I was on. Immediacy, soul, emotion...whatever you want to call it. It's a presentation and sound which grabs you and shoves you forcefully into your seat, not allowing you to leave. It's the sound which you think about when you are away from home, itching to get back and have a session.

Measurements and accuracy are fine and dandy, usefull and occasionally necessary. That said, give me a system which connects the music to me on a "higher level" and makes the hairs on my arms stand on end.

For those who cannot feel the music in such a manner, I may suggest that your system needs a tweak or two. I would also suggest using a lighter to quickly burn a portion of your skin, make sure you feel it as you could very well be dead.

[Ajani]

That's exactly the problem, traditionally, classical listeners defined music as a strictly celebral activity.

I know EXACTLY what harley was talking about, because it was the same path I was on. Immediacy, soul, emotion...whatever you want to call it. It's a presentation and sound which grabs you and shoves you forcefully into your seat, not allowing you to leave. It's the sound which you think about when you are away from home, itching to get back and have a session.

Measurements and accuracy are fine and dandy, usefull and occasionally necessary. That said, give me a system which connects the music to me on a "higher level" and makes the hairs on my arms stand on end.

For those who cannot feel the music in such a manner, I may suggest that your system needs a tweak or two. I would also suggest using a lighter to quickly burn a portion of your skin, make sure you feel it as you could very well be dead.

You sound like you should have an all Naim setup...

Anyway this is part of why we have so many never ending debates in HiFi: we all have different sonic priorities...

Take even a term like accuracy, what does it mean?

Is it as Feanor said that if the instruments sound harsh in real life, then they sound harsh in the playback of the recording?

Suppose I play a dance track and my HiFi gets me up on my feet dancing like a madman, but the sound is not 100% true to the original recording, could that be considered accurate to the aim of the recording (to get my body moving)?

Or take for example the concept of planar, open baffle, dipole or even Bose 901 speakers which is to recreate the Concert Hall ambiance: These speakers are creating a concert hall effect that is not contained in the original recording, so they are inaccurate in that way... However, they will create an experience listening to classical music, that is more like the live experience than other systems, so could they be considered accurate in that way?