• 01-27-2006, 06:03 PM
    jtgofish
    Pre Amps Are More Important Than Power Amps
    Most people seem obsessed with power amps and power generally and yet in my experience it is much easier to get a really good sound with a good pre and an average power amp than a good power amp and average pre.Unfortunately there seem to be very few good ones around though.The Supratek valve ones are clearly the best I have heard but are not really cheap.The point though is that you can spend most of your money on something like this and use it with a relatively cheap second hand power amp or even new digital type,and still achieve utterly fantastic sound.

    JT
  • 01-27-2006, 08:05 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jtgofish
    The point though is that you can spend most of your money on something like this and use it with a relatively cheap second hand power amp or even new digital type,and still achieve utterly fantastic sound
    The approach I use in my two audio systems for high level inputs like CD is to <i>eliminate</i> the preamp. I find it quite difficult for a line stage at any price to compete with essentially nothing.

    rw
  • 01-28-2006, 12:40 AM
    jtgofish
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    The approach I use in my two audio systems for high level inputs like CD is to <i>eliminate</i> the preamp. I find it quite difficult for a line stage at any price to compete with essentially nothing.

    rw
    Yes in many systems this is better option than most preamps-which again indicates how poor most preamps are.I used to do the same thing for many years until I got to hear a really good pre- a Metaxas Marquis 2.This has been replaced with a Supratek Cabernet which is much better again.A good pre is the audio equivelent of a good camera lens-it gives clarity,detail, image depth and precision.A good pre also gives speed and and timing-both the Metaxas and the Supratek sound incredibly fast and dynamic and would be a revelation to most audiophiles.Both also have massive power supplies so this could be part of the reason,but I have used Audio Research valve pre's that also had beefy power supplies but sounded appallingly slow and hazy.Its all about getting that signal focussed I suppose.
  • 01-28-2006, 05:07 AM
    accastil
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    The approach I use in my two audio systems for high level inputs like CD is to <i>eliminate</i> the preamp. I find it quite difficult for a line stage at any price to compete with essentially nothing.

    rw
    how did you do it? i know pro amps have gain controls and those with rCA inputs can be directly connected to the CDP. is this what you did?
  • 01-28-2006, 06:15 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jtgofish
    I used to do the same thing for many years until I got to hear a really good pre- a Metaxas Marquis 2.
    Since my experience supports the straight wire with gain concept where a component can only degrade the signal, I have yet to find a preamp that is better than perfect. And I have heard quite a few very nice ones. Indeed, I must use my ARC preamp for the vinyl source.

    rw
  • 01-28-2006, 06:23 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by accastil
    how did you do it? i know pro amps have gain controls and those with rCA inputs can be directly connected to the CDP. is this what you did?
    With my main system, I use high quality DACT stepped attenuators between the CDP and power amps. The CD Player is a high output, low impedance CDP design and I use low capacitance cables. Earlier, I built a project box using Radio Shack components that cost about $15. I put the Audio Research preamp back in the loop when I play vinyl.

    In my vintage system, I use a Manley DAC with built in attenuators to drive my amp directly.

    There are, however, impedance matching and gain issues to be considered. Most sources are incapable of driving very long interconnects without the bufffering provided by a preamp. A rolled off high end is the result. In my case, I use very short, low capacitance cables so that is not an issue.

    I find the benefits are improved resolution and soundstaging when I take the preamp out of the loop. Naturally, switching sources is a bit more inconvenient.

    rw
  • 01-28-2006, 02:20 PM
    jtgofish
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Since my experience supports the straight wire with gain concept where a component can only degrade the signal, I have yet to find a preamp that is better than perfect. And I have heard quite a few very nice ones. Indeed, I must use my ARC preamp for the vinyl source.

    rw
    I used to think the same way .Over the years my audiophile friends and I have tried all sorts of passive preamps.They can be quite neutral,at least tonally,but compared to a good active like the Suprateks can sound slow,lack bass articulation,air and general vibrancy.The Suprateks just make it all sound much more like the real thing.
  • 01-28-2006, 02:50 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jtgofish
    I used to think the same way .Over the years my audiophile friends and I have tried all sorts of passive preamps.They can be quite neutral,at least tonally,but compared to a good active like the Suprateks can sound slow,lack bass articulation,air and general vibrancy.The Suprateks just make it all sound much more like the real thing.
    Sound slow? How can the absence of a gain stage sound slow? Or adding one "speed up" the signal? Whatever.

    May you enjoy the personality of the Supratek.

    rw
  • 01-29-2006, 10:49 AM
    Florian
    I agree with E-Stat on this one. Most preamps are designed to be sonically neutral, and there is nothing more neutral then non-existant. But as he pointed out, it has to be rightly matched to the rest of the system otherwise it might go the wrong way ;-)
  • 01-29-2006, 03:18 PM
    jtgofish
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Florian
    I agree with E-Stat on this one. Most preamps are designed to be sonically neutral, and there is nothing more neutral then non-existant. But as he pointed out, it has to be rightly matched to the rest of the system otherwise it might go the wrong way ;-)
    Once again this is exactly what I used to think.There are electrical factors such as impedence matching between source and power amp input that must come into play though.If you look up Supratek under customer feedback you will see that many others have come to the same conclusions as me.Apart from Rappaport ,Supratek is the only mob I am aware of that has its success founded primarily on preamps.For most others pre amps appear to be almost an afterthought.

    JT
  • 01-29-2006, 04:32 PM
    Florian
    Sounds interesting, i might check it out. Got a link?
  • 01-29-2006, 05:08 PM
    Mike Anderson
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Florian
    Sounds interesting, i might check it out. Got a link?
    http://www.supratek.biz/gallery.htm

    Those are some really beautiful pieces. Someday when I'm rich, I'll have to check em out.
  • 02-14-2006, 03:28 AM
    jtgofish
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    http://www.supratek.biz/gallery.htm

    Those are some really beautiful pieces. Someday when I'm rich, I'll have to check em out.
    There is also a lot of info about Supratek to be found in Audiogon Forums.These really are very special .If you do not own one of these you simply have not heard the potential of your system!
    JT