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Thread: Pleease Help!!!

  1. #1
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    Question Pleease Help!!!

    Hi

    I want to start fresh on my home theater system and have been researching for a number of months.

    Only problem is, I have no idea what equipment to buy. Every shop I visit tries to push their particular brands onto me, insisting that theirs is the best (i can tell by listening to certain systems which speakers i like, but it is not as easy for amplifiers).

    The original system I had in mind was an Onkyo TX-DS989 Amp/receiver, with a set of B&W 703 speakers (and B&W sub and surrounds to be selected), along with a DVD (Yet to be chosen).

    During the months of research that I have been doing, I must have have changed my mind a dozen times. My Amp list now consists of a choice of the following:

    Onkyo TX-DS989
    Pioneer VSA-AX10i (great amp but no support from Pioneer in S.A)
    Denon AVC-A1SR
    Yamaha (AZ1 or AZ9 (probably too pricey though))

    Pleeeeaase help!! Which amp is outright the best. Is there a better amp not on my list (within the same price range). I unfortunately do not understand the technical lino too well, but it seems that the Yamaha has the most advanced electronics and processing power, whereas the Pioneer is rated as best all rounder, and Denon is rated best for 'oomph'. However, The Yamaha AZ1 seems to be a bit "old" now as the AZ9 is becoming the new flagship model? Am I correct? And the AZ9 may be too expensive consdering the anwser to the following :

    Another important question: The last Hi-fi shop I was at advised that I purchase an Onkyo integra amp (cheaper model - about 120W p/c) and use a seperate amplifier for the fronts and center (a primare A30.3 was suggested). The reasoning behind this was simply that (as the salesman put it): "amplifiers outputs are tested/rated with only one channel running. By running all 6/7/8 channels the power to each channel is lessened somewhat. This is easily demonstrated by taking the amplifiers power consumption (minus a percentage for loss due to heat etc) and dividing it by the total number of output channels - you will never arrive at the same output as the amp is rated. And we all know that power cannot be 'created'. An Amp cannot push out more power then it is consuming". This does seem to make sense to me. However, it is rarely (if ever) the case that ALL 6/7/8 channels are being used fully at the same time.

    Is this really the case, or was I just being duped into purchasing an extra amp? If not, I was considering buying one of the AV amps above and using a power amp to drive at least the 3 front speakers. A rotel RMB-1095 would be great (and it would drive 5 speakers), but then I get the feeling that most of the money I am spending on the AV is wasted, as I will not even be using the amplification it provides.

    I really really need help on this one As i am totally confused. In my case, more research is just adding to the confusion.

    And I have not even reached the speaker selection phase of the purchase yet.

    In total, I can probably spend about $10000 on my system (Amp, speakers and DVD/CD player). THis is a major huge big of money for a South African, as the rand is pretty weak against the dollar, so I really want to make sure I spend it wisely.

    Any suggestions?

    Please help
    Justin

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    Hey, dude, unless you mis-typed, I can tell you that

    $10,000 is a heck of a lot of money for ANYONE to spend on stereo equipment. Unless, of course, your name is Warren Buffet or Bill Gates.

    "Which amp is outright the best." does not compute. Speakers are more important, anyway.

    Why do you need so many channels? Go for quality, not quantity.

    At a budget of $10,000 I would spring for great speakers first, and then the amps. A seperate control center would allow you to upgrade to new formats as the inevitable obsolence is introduced. A great speaker and great amps can satisfy for a very, very long time. Heck, my Futterman OTL amps and Tympani speakers are approaching 30 years old and they still kick adz.....

    Let's see one example
    Magnepan 1.6QR $1600
    Paradigm Servo-15 $1200
    Magnepan MMG rear $550
    So far, $3350
    CD/DVD $100 max
    Now you have over $6700 for Amps, Preamp/Control, etc.

    Cruise the web with "Stereo amp", "pre-amp", multi-channel amp" and other key words in your search engine and you should find a TON of candidates.

    Cruise the AMP forum here and pick up manufacturer's names. You will get the opinions for free.

    Cruise the Audio Review "Reviews" section HERE for reviews of amps and preamps, which just happen to be listed alphabetically by equipment name.

    A budget over $6500 will allow, oh, maybe 3,000 or 4,000 candidates.

  3. #3
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    I personally agree in part with what the dealer said. The receiver ratings are bogus into each channel driven...separately they will achieve the claimed 80-130 watts(which makes almost no audible difference to volume anyway) so adding an external power amp makes the most sense(but you're still limited the power your home and or wall outlet proovides.

    The fact of the matter is that watts are sold over quality or even volume level. If loud is your thing you want a high sensitivity speaker that can handle a lot of watts.

    For instance if you own a set of speakers that are 85db sensitive and you run a 100 watt amp you will get the SAME volume as another guy who only has a 50 watt amp but has 88db sensitive speakers. And if I have 95db sensitive speakers(which I do) I can get the same volume as the 100 watt 85db guy - with a mere 10 watt amp.

    Now sensitivity is rated as 95db sensitive 1 watt/1 meter. With one lone watt I get 95 decibals which is very loud - with 10 wattsI will get 105 db which is deafeningly loud.

    Watts are a complete misnomer in most cases. Clarity and quality of power supplies etc are something else. I personally would get the cheapest receiver you can possibly buy that has the features you want and has preouts so you can add on a great power amp.

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    Yeah...you gotta be careful with those WPC ratings. I hear that some companies cheat big time and slap on an 8ohm resistor to do their tests.

    hmm 10k is a LOT OF MONEY! man...what would I get with that?? hmmm...

    make sure you buy an electric fence too. Just in case someone tries to steal it from you! (I will try to resist)

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    Yeah...you gotta be careful with those WPC ratings. I hear that some companies cheat big time and slap on an 8ohm resistor to do their tests.


    Why would they cheat? So they can be exposed in the next issue of an audio mag? Hardly their purpose.
    If not a resistor load what would they use? Oh, a speaker? Which one would be accepted by everyone so you can compare amps?
    mtrycrafts

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Carnecky
    Hi

    I want to start fresh on my home theater system and have been researching for a number of months.

    Only problem is, I have no idea what equipment to buy. Every shop I visit tries to push their particular brands onto me, insisting that theirs is the best (i can tell by listening to certain systems which speakers i like, but it is not as easy for amplifiers).

    The original system I had in mind was an Onkyo TX-DS989 Amp/receiver, with a set of B&W 703 speakers (and B&W sub and surrounds to be selected), along with a DVD (Yet to be chosen).

    During the months of research that I have been doing, I must have have changed my mind a dozen times. My Amp list now consists of a choice of the following:

    Onkyo TX-DS989
    Pioneer VSA-AX10i (great amp but no support from Pioneer in S.A)
    Denon AVC-A1SR
    Yamaha (AZ1 or AZ9 (probably too pricey though))

    Pleeeeaase help!! Which amp is outright the best. Is there a better amp not on my list (within the same price range). I unfortunately do not understand the technical lino too well, but it seems that the Yamaha has the most advanced electronics and processing power, whereas the Pioneer is rated as best all rounder, and Denon is rated best for 'oomph'. However, The Yamaha AZ1 seems to be a bit "old" now as the AZ9 is becoming the new flagship model? Am I correct? And the AZ9 may be too expensive consdering the anwser to the following :

    Another important question: The last Hi-fi shop I was at advised that I purchase an Onkyo integra amp (cheaper model - about 120W p/c) and use a seperate amplifier for the fronts and center (a primare A30.3 was suggested). The reasoning behind this was simply that (as the salesman put it): "amplifiers outputs are tested/rated with only one channel running. By running all 6/7/8 channels the power to each channel is lessened somewhat. This is easily demonstrated by taking the amplifiers power consumption (minus a percentage for loss due to heat etc) and dividing it by the total number of output channels - you will never arrive at the same output as the amp is rated. And we all know that power cannot be 'created'. An Amp cannot push out more power then it is consuming". This does seem to make sense to me. However, it is rarely (if ever) the case that ALL 6/7/8 channels are being used fully at the same time.

    Is this really the case, or was I just being duped into purchasing an extra amp? If not, I was considering buying one of the AV amps above and using a power amp to drive at least the 3 front speakers. A rotel RMB-1095 would be great (and it would drive 5 speakers), but then I get the feeling that most of the money I am spending on the AV is wasted, as I will not even be using the amplification it provides.

    I really really need help on this one As i am totally confused. In my case, more research is just adding to the confusion.

    And I have not even reached the speaker selection phase of the purchase yet.

    In total, I can probably spend about $10000 on my system (Amp, speakers and DVD/CD player). THis is a major huge big of money for a South African, as the rand is pretty weak against the dollar, so I really want to make sure I spend it wisely.

    Any suggestions?

    Please help
    Justin
    Well, just be careful how you spend that amount.
    You should be concerned with the speakers first, the ones that you like the most. But, even that is tough as how will you compare them if not in the same sound room? Different rooms have different acoustics. Plus, a big plus, you must rely on your memory how it sounded in store A, travel to store B and compare the next set and so forth.
    Don't worry which amp is driving it in the store, unless it is a tube amp.

    Once you have the speakers picked out, then the receiver that can drive the speaker load.
    If the speaker is an easy load, just pick a receiver that has all the features you need and the support there as that is critical for you. You don't really need a separate amp for the front, not with those units you have listed.

    Don't forget, the vast majority of movies and music will not task you amp to full power into all the channels at exactly the same instant. So, that aspect of an amp is not that critical at all.

    Of course each store will want to sell what they have. Why would they badmouth their own gear? Much easier to badmouth the other guys gear so you buy his.
    mtrycrafts

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    oh please mtyrcraft -.-
    I admit I dont know very much but I'm trying
    IF im wrong thats cool
    Dont have to imply im an idiot. EVERYONE makes mistakes bud

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    Problem solved

    You have access to Primare, they make an A/V integrated with a suggested retail of $4k. This is an incredible piece that is so very far superior to any receiver you can buy. Now that you have the amp just find what speakers you like with it. Look for a DVD player that will provide good video (shouldn't cost that much) and let the amp do the processing. Even if you don't take my suggestion on the Primare, with your budget you are wasting your money on a receiver. A Rotel RSP 1066 and matching power amp would outperform a receiver by quite a bit. The Primare power amps are quite good. I think it would be a mismatch to pair one up with the preamp section of any receiver.

    I don't want to get off track here but what good are great speakers if your amp can't drive them to their potential or deliver an adequate signal to make them sound good? Unfortunately, posting here will give some additional ideas or guidance but as you will see it won't clear up your confusion.

    Also save a little money for good speaker connections, digital connect from DVD to amp and video cable. Good cables make a difference. I like Transparent. Audioquest is also good. Monster Cable is not the real deal and the others aren't that much more expensive, especially when you will see and hear a real difference.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    , especially when you will see and hear a real difference.

    I am still waiting after 20+ years for just such evidence. Yet, all indications are that comparable cables have no sonic differences, or visible differences in video cables.
    mtrycrafts

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    Thanks a mill for your input. Being fairly new to the technical side of things, i never really understood exactly how sensitivity of speakers actually played a role in the output / power. This will definitely influence my decision heavily.
    Regards
    Justin

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Well, just be careful how you spend that amount.
    You should be concerned with the speakers first, the ones that you like the most. But, even that is tough as how will you compare them if not in the same sound room? Different rooms have different acoustics. Plus, a big plus, you must rely on your memory how it sounded in store A, travel to store B and compare the next set and so forth.
    Don't worry which amp is driving it in the store, unless it is a tube amp.

    Once you have the speakers picked out, then the receiver that can drive the speaker load.
    If the speaker is an easy load, just pick a receiver that has all the features you need and the support there as that is critical for you. You don't really need a separate amp for the front, not with those units you have listed.

    Don't forget, the vast majority of movies and music will not task you amp to full power into all the channels at exactly the same instant. So, that aspect of an amp is not that critical at all.

    Of course each store will want to sell what they have. Why would they badmouth their own gear? Much easier to badmouth the other guys gear so you buy his.

    THanks a lot.

    Seems as though I might be going about this purchase the wrong way. But if I start with the speakers, I think I am just going to add to the confusion. It's like you said, Travelling from store A to store B and trying to remember what the last pair sounded like is not too easy. And in SA each store is pretty limited. Usually each Hi-fi store will stock only one or 2 'preffered' brands of Amp, and probably a maximum of 5 types of speaker. So listening to my ideal combo is almost impossible. (Very few Onkyo dealers will also stock B&W speakers for example, so I cannot hear how the one would sound being driven by the other). But then, If you say I shouldnt worry about the amp, just find great sounding speakers - maybe this is the way to go.
    Any suggestions ? Remember - very few US brands available is South Africa & Europe. And importing new is Costly (100% import duty. If I purchase in Europe and fly into South Africa with the stuff I can get 'older' invoices so the equipment is actually 'second hand' and therefore duty free)

    Regards
    Justin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    You have access to Primare, they make an A/V integrated with a suggested retail of $4k. This is an incredible piece that is so very far superior to any receiver you can buy. Now that you have the amp just find what speakers you like with it. Look for a DVD player that will provide good video (shouldn't cost that much) and let the amp do the processing. Even if you don't take my suggestion on the Primare, with your budget you are wasting your money on a receiver. A Rotel RSP 1066 and matching power amp would outperform a receiver by quite a bit. The Primare power amps are quite good. I think it would be a mismatch to pair one up with the preamp section of any receiver.

    I don't want to get off track here but what good are great speakers if your amp can't drive them to their potential or deliver an adequate signal to make them sound good? Unfortunately, posting here will give some additional ideas or guidance but as you will see it won't clear up your confusion.

    Also save a little money for good speaker connections, digital connect from DVD to amp and video cable. Good cables make a difference. I like Transparent. Audioquest is also good. Monster Cable is not the real deal and the others aren't that much more expensive, especially when you will see and hear a real difference.

    Awesome advice, thanks a mill for your input. I will make sure that I spend the correct amount on cables and the likes. Remember the price i posted was a ballpark maximum. I am not going out there intent on spending 10k no matter what I listen to. If I can find my 'sonic soulmate' for half the price then so be it. And likewise if I have to spend a grand or two more then I will also not mind.

    A question for all of you out there. Could you guys name your dream system given 10k. It must be multi-channel, with 2channel sound quality for music being a priority over multi-channel 'movie' sound.

    Just a list of Amp/pre-amp processor/AV receiver, speakers, sub, DVD/CD player, cables. This will really help me. I can then at least narrow down my auditions a bit (to audition everything out there will take me a lifetime)

    Regards
    Justin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mash
    $10,000 is a heck of a lot of money for ANYONE to spend on stereo equipment. Unless, of course, your name is Warren Buffet or Bill Gates.

    "Which amp is outright the best." does not compute. Speakers are more important, anyway.

    Why do you need so many channels? Go for quality, not quantity.

    At a budget of $10,000 I would spring for great speakers first, and then the amps. A seperate control center would allow you to upgrade to new formats as the inevitable obsolence is introduced. A great speaker and great amps can satisfy for a very, very long time. Heck, my Futterman OTL amps and Tympani speakers are approaching 30 years old and they still kick adz.....

    Let's see one example
    Magnepan 1.6QR $1600
    Paradigm Servo-15 $1200
    Magnepan MMG rear $550
    So far, $3350
    CD/DVD $100 max
    Now you have over $6700 for Amps, Preamp/Control, etc.

    Cruise the web with "Stereo amp", "pre-amp", multi-channel amp" and other key words in your search engine and you should find a TON of candidates.

    Cruise the AMP forum here and pick up manufacturer's names. You will get the opinions for free.

    Cruise the Audio Review "Reviews" section HERE for reviews of amps and preamps, which just happen to be listed alphabetically by equipment name.

    A budget over $6500 will allow, oh, maybe 3,000 or 4,000 candidates.

    Great advice thanks. And remember the price I posted was a ballpark maximimum. I might find something for half the price that I really dig. I would rather spend more then I can afford now, And not have to go through the entire process in a couple of years time again. I really do not think that 10k is too much to be spending on a really great sounding system, considering it needs to be multi channel and fairly powerful (and I want REALLY good stereo AND multichannel sound). Reading the various magazines and reveiws, there are probably guys out there who spend more on their cables right?


    Regards
    Justin

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    Justin;

    I hear you. No matter what your budget, one wants to get the most for their money. If your budget will allow you will definitely gain sonic superiority by going with separates over a receiver. The Primare is expensive but still a good value because of the performance. You could also listen to the Rotel RSP 1066 preamp/processor at $1,500.U.S. (not sure what a 5 channel Rotel runs) or the Anthem pre/pro runs about $3k (again not sure on power amp). I haven't heard it but Linn offers an all in one HT unit for around $2,500. that has the DVD/pro/amp almost everything you need. Europe has some very fine audio manufacturers look at the Primare, Arcam or Roksan. Naim and Linn will probably be out of your price range. Classe is expensive here, their pre/pro is about $3k with no video switching and a power amp would be at least that but it is very nice equipment. Maybe if it's cheaper where you are at take a listen.

    Here's the way I would spend your money on a system. Prices are U.S. and pieces chosen for best performance for the dollar.
    Primare A/V integrated - $4k
    2 pair of Dynaudio Audience 52se - $1,200. per pair
    1 Audience center - $750.
    Velodyne SPL 1200 sub - $1,300.
    DVD not sure. Arcam is supposed to have a new one out at $900. but could settle on a decent Sony or Denon for half the price.
    * the 52se are only $300 more a pair than the 52 and actually sound more like a Contour series. You could save $300. and use regular 52's in rear. Just depends on if you are going to listen to 5 channel audio. If going for 5 ch audio you also consider a Contour center. Not sure of the price. The 52se is definitely the best sounding Audience series now. They are bookshelf however, if you want floor standers, then use an all Audience series set up for best voice match.

    To cure your store to store delima pick what you want to try and bring it home for an audition. When you are about to spend that much money they should allow you to bring the gear home for a try out. This is a fairly common practice amongst finer audio retailers. Even the cheeseball stores are starting to allow a 30 day return policy with no questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Justin;

    I hear you. No matter what your budget, one wants to get the most for their money. If your budget ........
    Hi there.

    Thank for the input. I have checked out the Dynaudio website and the speakers look pretty wicked. I just need to find myself a dealer so I can test them, but they will definitely get an audition! A friend of mine owns a pair (don't know which model) and he totally worships them!.

    The Rotel option is starting to more and more pleasing to me. Only snag I now have, is that if I buy the Rotel Power Amp, then No matter what dedicated pre-processor I buy, it will never have all the frills / bells / whisltes that one of the flagship AV receivers will have.

    Will have to find some kind of compromise.

    Regards
    Justin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    ......
    2 pair of Dynaudio Audience 52se - $1,200. per pair
    ........
    * the 52se are only $300 more a pair than the 52 and actually sound more like a Contour series. You could save $300. and use regular 52's in rear. .
    Justin,
    I just check with a dealer here in Singapore; the Dyn Audience 52 (non se) is selling for under USD 650 a pair. Not sure about the se version. You said you travel to Singapore regularly so better pick up the stuff here. Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    A Rotel RSP 1066 and matching power amp would outperform a receiver by quite a bit. The Primare power amps are quite good. I think it would be a mismatch to pair one up with the preamp section of any receiver.
    IMO the preamp section of a Yamaha 1400 $650 US will out preform the 1066..IMO there will be little to no difference in the SQ between the Rotel and the Yamaha..The room will have the most effect on how these units sound..The Yamaha has YPAO, this feature has room correction along with wiring distance and level adjusments..This unit will also do video upconversion ,Component video OSD,and DPL2x..The 1066 had in issue with BM it may or may not have been corrected.And the 1400 has preouts for adding an ext amps if you find the ones built in are inadequate..Denon also has a new model comming out with some of the same features as the Yamaha..As far as high$ cable goes, IMO save the money and buy DVDs and CDs..I know its hard but speakers need to be in your home to get the best Idea on how they will sound..If you can audition them in your home..

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    with regard to bells and whistles, I think most of the time we have many extra options but NEVER put them to use. I dont know about receivers, but I have a digital camera that has over 10 shooting modes. Except, I use them once in a blue moon. I did buy the camera for its superior picture quality for the price and the extra shooting modes just came with it.
    I would rather spend more time worrying about the superiority in music rather than those many AV modes that you can set.

    But, the point here is to analyse if you really do need those special functions. Sometimes the simple answer if the correct answer (Razor's rule)

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    Justin

    I'm not sure what features you are looking for but most preamp processors have as many features as receivers. The Anthem pre/pro I referred to was loaded with features. It even had a built in headphone amp and self set up. To see it go to the Sonic Frontiers website or it may come up on a Google search. I haven't heard any but B&K is a brand I ran across while looking at pre/pro's. They seem to be in the price with the other stuff I mentioned.

    Those who rave about Yamaha fall for the buzz words and sales pitches. And must not have owned anything but receivers. I had a top of the line Yamaha processor with all the sound fields and supposed to perform magic. Well the proof is in the listening. I went from that Yamaha to an Arcam, that was bare bones features, but just blew that Yamaha away. The Arcam sound quality was light years better than the Yamaha. I don't care if it's TYPAO or TYBO, Yamaha don't run with the big dogs.

    Justin the only way you will tell the wheat from the chaffe is to do some listening for yourself to see if your ears agree with any of us. You might make a list of features you want on a preamp and start by looking to see which ones can provide them. Remember, as with the Yamaha, just because they claim something don't necessarily mean they can do it. If that receiver could actually perform all it says at $650. it would put everyone else out of business. Also ask yourself which is your priority, sound quality or bells & whistles. If it's toys, maybe one of the receivers with the big remote that has it's own display and does everything but mix drinks would make you happier. If it's sound quality, you will have to go to a brand that can perform while providing most or all of the features you need which will most likely be separates.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I'm not sure what features you are looking for but most preamp processors have as many features as receivers. The Anthem pre/pro I referred to was loaded with features. It even had a built in headphone amp and self set up. To see it go to the Sonic Frontiers website or it may come up on a Google search. I haven't heard any but B&K is a brand I ran across while looking at pre/pro's. They seem to be in the price with the other stuff I mentioned.

    Those who rave about Yamaha fall for the buzz words and sales pitches. And must not have owned anything but receivers. I had a top of the line Yamaha processor with all the sound fields and supposed to perform magic. Well the proof is in the listening. I went from that Yamaha to an Arcam, that was bare bones features, but just blew that Yamaha away. The Arcam sound quality was light years better than the Yamaha. I don't care if it's TYPAO or TYBO, Yamaha don't run with the big dogs.

    Justin the only way you will tell the wheat from the chaffe is to do some listening for yourself to see if your ears agree with any of us. You might make a list of features you want on a preamp and start by looking to see which ones can provide them. Remember, as with the Yamaha, just because they claim something don't necessarily mean they can do it. If that receiver could actually perform all it says at $650. it would put everyone else out of business. Also ask yourself which is your priority, sound quality or bells & whistles. If it's toys, maybe one of the receivers with the big remote that has it's own display and does everything but mix drinks would make you happier. If it's sound quality, you will have to go to a brand that can perform while providing most or all of the features you need which will most likely be separates.
    Mr Peabody these features (2x) you call buzz words will be featured in the new Rotels.DPL2x will be in every prepro sooner or later..Yamaha just got the jump on them..
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I went from that Yamaha to an Arcam, that was bare bones features, but just blew that Yamaha away. The Arcam sound quality was light years better than the Yamaha. I don't care if it's TYPAO or TYBO, Yamaha don't run with the big dogs..
    So these units were compared level matched to within .5 dbs and without you knowing if the Arcam or Yamaha was playing..
    Maybe you missed it but the room and speakers have the most effect on how a system will sound..Yamaha uses a PEQ for room correction.Get used to it this feature will find its way into many processers in the next 2 years..More and more subs are comming to the market with a PEQ built in...As far as SQ goes using terms as "light years" and "dont run with the big dogs " please show some proof, you are asking Justin to spend alot of money.I would hope you have some facts to back this up...

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    Who let the dogs out

    Ruff, ruff. I said who let the dogs out..... :-)

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Those who rave about Yamaha fall for the buzz words and sales pitches. And must not have owned anything but receivers. I had a top of the line Yamaha processor with all the sound fields and supposed to perform magic. Well the proof is in the listening. I went from that Yamaha to an Arcam, that was bare bones features, but just blew that Yamaha away. The Arcam sound quality was light years better than the Yamaha. I don't care if it's TYPAO or TYBO, Yamaha don't run with the big dogs.

    Then:
    If that receiver could actually perform all it says at $650. it would put everyone else out of business. Also ask yourself which is your priority, sound quality or bells & whistles. If it's toys, maybe one of the receivers with the big remote that has it's own display and does everything but mix drinks would make you happier. If it's sound quality, you will have to go to a brand that can perform while providing most or all of the features you need which will most likely be separates.
    Sorry, Peabody ... your advice is so far off the mark it just makes me ill. To think that someone like poor uninformed Justin who is here seeking good advice would be swayed by your diatribe of utter nonsense just riles me no end! I've been involved in audio for 65 of my 75 years on the planet - and I'm also a musician, highly respected among other musicians as having exceptionally "good ears", and your uncalled for bashing of Yamaha is simply a boatload of CRAP! Furthermore, your comments in general only display total ignorance of the subject ... a bunch of assembled audiophile myth and hoopla that have no basis in fact. If you actually KNEW anything about audio, you wouldn't be making such outrageous - not to mention wrong statements.

    Also, it should be pointed out that you contradict yourself when you tout the vast superiority of separates - then, recommend an integrated amp to Justin for $4K. This board is all about helping people, and IMO - you're no help whatsoever
    woodman

    I plan to live forever ..... so far, so good!
    Steven Wright

  23. #23
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    Sorry Woodman if you can't handle the truth

    The advice I give is based on experience. I have owned Yamaha and know what it is and I have owned and do own much better. It's people like you and your cronies on here that have never owned anything more than a receiver and can't seem to stand it if someone else aspires to own better. And you lack the knowledge and experience as to were to go from a receiver. Just because you say you have been in audio don't mean anything, especially if most of those years you have remained on the same level. I have sat and listened to such equipment as the Linn $20k cd player, the Krell $25k preamp/cd player playing through Krell monoblocks, to Dynaudio $85k flagship speakers, to a multi thousand dollar Naim system setup by the manufacturer's rep and various other truly fine audio equipment, so I have a pretty good point of reference myself. Yamaha is a middle of the road receiver at best in my OPINION. If Yamaha had any integrity they wouldn't be in Best Buy. In a receiver I would prefer Onkyo or Denon.

    I do not controdict myself. The Primare piece may be an integrated but it is a hell of a long way from a receiver. Pieces like this and integrated amps from Krell and a few others are closer to separates, in fact, they outperform many separates. Maybe what I should have said it just DON'T BUY A RECEIVER! You and a few others try to say I don't base what I say on fact, well like I said before I base what I say on experience and say what I think. Sorry if you can't handle it. When I say the Arcam I owned trashed the Yamaha, that is fact, to me, but some jughead like you will try to claim otherwise, though it would even be obvious to some 75 year old. No one on here can say they base what they say on fact. How can you or I proof any of it? It's all subjective. You and everyone else here who thinks like you, in fact, are WRONG in wanting to advise someone who wants a truly quality system to buy a receiver. I am a mere government employee and have about $20k wrapped up in my main system. Some of us have this kind of passion for the audio. I have been to the mountain, I can't help it if you have been wandering for 65 years looking for it.

  24. #24
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    Feb 2004
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    13

    Thumbs up

    Now Now. Play nicely boys...

    None of this shouting is helping me any, and its hurting my ears

  25. #25
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    Another suggestion

    In my Acousticsounds newsletter they are offering an Aragon Stage One preamp processor that sold for $4k at $2,499. US. And also a variety of Aragon amps at big discount. These were CES demo units. www.acousticsounds.com to take a look. I don't have any personal experience with Aragon but they are supposed to be pretty good. Acousticsounds I'm sure would give you a 30 day home audition.

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