Phase Linear

[nightflier]

So I have an opportunity to acquire a Phase Linear preamp, tuner, cassette deck combo. Now I really don't have a need for them, but they look absolutely stunning, kind of like the old silver Marantz stuff. When I checked audiogon, I saw that the gear is pretty much bargain-basement cheap.

So why is it so cheap? Does it sound particularly bad? Or is it constructed cheaply? Also, if I was going to buy an amp to go along with it, any suggestions? Or should I stay clear of Phase Linear altogether?

[Feanor]

So I have an opportunity to acquire a Phase Linear preamp, tuner, cassette deck combo. Now I really don't have a need for them, but they look absolutely stunning, kind of like the old silver Marantz stuff. When I checked audiogon, I saw that the gear is pretty much bargain-basement cheap.

So why is it so cheap? Does it sound particularly bad? Or is it constructed cheaply? Also, if I was going to buy an amp to go along with it, any suggestions? Or should I stay clear of Phase Linear altogether?

I used a Phase Linear 400 amp for many years. I bought it because a audio mag panel back in the day, had found it the best among 7-8 high-powered amps in blind testing. I lived with the thing for over 20 years. The much of this interval marked a low ebb in my hi-fi interest; maybe that's why I never checked out anything else. When I finally did, I was appalled had how really bad the PL sounded: extremely sharp, opaque, and rather grainy. More or less the epitome of solid state sound.

The PL 400s and 700s were amongst the more affordable of high-powered amps in the mid-70's and were frequently put to professional use though they weren't design for it. Consequently they often burned out, or flamed -- giving rise to the pejorative nickname "Flame Linear". My 400, however, never gave me any reliability problems. Around the time I got it, I auditioned the PL 4000 preamp; I never did like it. I don't recommend the stuff if you intend to actually listen to it.

[E-Stat]

So why is it so cheap? Does it sound particularly bad? Or is it constructed cheaply? Also, if I was going to buy an amp to go along with it, any suggestions? Or should I stay clear of Phase Linear altogether?

The early Flame Linear, oops Phase Linear amps were extremely powerful (400/700 watts), but they had some reliability issues like - well bursting into flames. I would classify their sound as early solid state. The 4000 Autocorrelator preamp looked kinda cool with forty knobs and a joy stick, but fell into that same category using first gen op amps and electrolytic caps in the signal path.

Cool for vintage sake, but don't expect current technology sound quality. Be prepared for some sand paper.

rw

[E-Stat]

...had found it the best among 7-8 high-powered amps in blind testing.

Nelson Pass was the first guy, IMHO, who changed the "high power=bad sound" equation for SS amps when he introduced the Threshold 800A in 1975. The dealer where I worked at the time picked up the line. Julian used an 800A to drive his Dayton-Wright electrostats. Here was an amp with the balls to drive the nasty reactive load of a big stat that introduced the concept of sliding class A operation and significantly raised the sound quality bar. Way cool product in its day.

There are lots of really cool pics of Pass' early stuff here.

rw

[Feanor]

Nelson Pass was the first guy, IMHO, who changed the "high power=bad sound" equation for SS amps when he introduced the Threshold 800A in 1975. The dealer where I worked at the time picked up the line. Julian used an 800A to drive his Dayton-Wright electrostats. Here was an amp with the balls to drive the nasty reactive load of a big stat that introduced the concept of sliding class A operation and significantly raised the sound quality bar. Way cool product in its day.

There are lots of really cool pics of Pass' early stuff here.

rw

Still, there were amps of the era that had and have a much better reputation. What really sucks is that I almost bought an Accuphase P-300 instead of the PL 400. It would have been a couple of hundred more. The P-300 still sells for as much or more than its original price, i.e. around $800-1000 whereas 400 go for <$300.

[E-Stat]

Still, there were amps of the era that had and have a much better reputation

An Accuphase having a better reputation than the Threshold? Based upon what criteria? Have you heard both of them? Or a current Pass Labs? We also sold the Stax class A amps. I have no idea as to what you refer as to "reputation", but the Accuphase amps did not sound as good as either back in that day.

rw

[Feanor]

An Accuphase having a better reputation than the Threshold? Based upon what criteria? Have you heard both of them? Or a current Pass Labs? We also sold the Stax class A amps. I have no idea as to what you refer as to "reputation", but the Accuphase amps did not sound as good as either back in that day.

rw

Did I imply that Accuphase had or has a better rep than Threshold? If so, sorry, because I meant that Accuphase had, and certainly nowadays has, a better rep that Phase Linear.

The review I mentioned was written in the mid-70's. Threshold was founded in 1974 so might have been around at time but I don't recall a Threshold amp being in the review; if so it didn't score as well as the PL or the Accuphase. Pass Labs was founded only in 1991.

My dream amp today for my Magneplanars is Pass Labs XA160.5's, but since I won't be getting either anyway, I wouldn't turn down an Accuphase P-5000.

[E-Stat]

Did I imply that Accuphase had or has a better rep than Threshold? If so, sorry, because I meant that Accuphase had, and certainly nowadays has, a better rep that Phase Linear.

Ok. Your comment was immediately after I spoke of the 800A.

The review I mentioned was written in the mid-70's. Threshold was founded in 1974 so might have been around at time but I don't recall a Threshold amp being in the review; if so it didn't score as well as the PL or the Accuphase.

Well, that was the point I was trying to make. Threshold was among the first to change that old high power=bad sound equation. I assumed a Threshold was not in your comparison.

My dream amp today for my Magneplanars is the Pass Labs XA106.5...

You probably mean a pair of XA160.5s, but I know what you mean. I would like to hear the latest generation of higher power versions (X350.5,X600.5) as compared with the pure class A flavors like the one you mentioned. Supposedly, they have narrowed the gap and are virtually the same for the first ten percent output or so. Another *dream* contender would be a pair of VTL Sigfrieds. Harry has them now and coincidentally called me yesterday to see when I was coming back to Seacliff.

rw

[basite]

Well, that was the point I was trying to make. Threshold was among the first to change that old high power=bad sound equation. I assumed a Threshold was not in your comparison.

Luxman was quite early too, with their M-6000 & M-4000 I think...

Last time I heard a threshold amp (a T400 IIRC...) did sound a little dull and boring to my ears, especially compared to the 30 watt Accuphase integrated they compared it with. The accuphase just sounded much more natural & room filling. The threshold sounded a bit thin compared to the accuphase IMHO...

although, IIRC, the T400 was not directly designed by Nelson Pass...

Another *dream* contender would be a pair of VTL Sigfrieds. Harry has them now and coincidentally called me yesterday to see when I was coming back to Seacliff.

rw

a pair of Wavac Monoblocks will do nicely too for me
although I'd take the Pass labs, or the Accuphase (impressive things too, btw, they always impress me when I hear them...), and a new Mcintosh too (although I'm biased...)...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[E-Stat]

Luxman was quite early too, with their M-6000 & M-4000 I think...

Yep. While it was a Japanese product, it was designed by Tim de Paravicini.

although, IIRC, the T400 was not directly designed by Nelson Pass...

Correct. He sold the name in the late 80s IIRC.

a pair of Wavac Monoblocks will do nicely too for me
although I'd take the Pass labs, or the Accuphase (impressive things too, btw, they always impress me when I hear them...), and a new Mcintosh too (although I'm biased...)...

Despite ongoing predictions as to the *death* of high end, there are far more excellent choices available today than when I was your age. On the other hand, there are those who believe that $300 Behringer amps are as good sounding as those mentioned. Oh well.

rw

[basite]

Despite ongoing predictions as to the *death* of high end, there are far more excellent choices available today than when I was your age. On the other hand, there are those who believe that $300 Behringer amps are as good sounding as those mentioned. Oh well.

rw

there are noticable differences between a $300 behringer amp, and one of the other mentioned

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[nightflier]

Well, I've never had a Threshold amp, but I do have one friggin' amazing T3 preamplifier. It is almost (maybe by a hair less) as good as my Plinius pre. And it only cost me $60 because it didn't have a remote and the buttons were missing. The guy was using a pair of pliers to show me that it was still working and asked $100 for it. Yes I cringed, but I said that w/o the buttons I would only pay $50 for it. We settled on $60. I happened to have a nob that fit, so I've been using that to test it out, but I contacted Threshold (excellent customer service, by the way) and they are sending me a refurbed remote and four buttons for $165.

So for $225, I now have a pre that is nearly as good as my $3K Plinius. If their amps are as good, then that's one company that has flown way under my radar, being the cheapskate that I am, that is surprising that I never noticed them.

OK, I got the gist about Phase Linear. Any other brands besides Accuphase that have the same curb appeal, but that will also perform well. Threshold is OK, but ho-hum looks, imo - kind of reminds me of PS Audio.

It seems to be the case that vintage Japanese gear performs pretty well. I have a Nikko tuner and preamp that are good performers albeit with just above average looks. Any suggestions for gear from Japan that has a smidgen more style?

[hermanv]

Nelson Pass was the first guy, IMHO, who changed the "high power=bad sound" equation for SS amps when he introduced the Threshold 800A in 1975. The dealer where I worked at the time picked up the line. Julian used an 800A to drive his Dayton-Wright electrostats. Here was an amp with the balls to drive the nasty reactive load of a big stat that introduced the concept of sliding class A operation and significantly raised the sound quality bar. Way cool product in its day.

There are lots of really cool pics of Pass' early stuff here.

rw

Both Nelson and his amp designs have improved with age. I do admit to a bias as I have a Pass Labs amp.

[nightflier]

Wasn't Bob Carver an original Phase Linear designer?

[E-Stat]

Wasn't Bob Carver an original Phase Linear designer?

He was Phase Linear having formed it in 1972. He later started Carver Corp and Sunfire. There's an interview of him in the latest TAS. I was amused by his admission of using a bit of sleight of hand with his infamous "I can match any amplifier" challenge years ago. He attributes that to "youthful arrogance" and changed his position.

rw

[nightflier]

I picked up TAS and read the article. Sounds like BC is quite a character. No mention about the amps catching on fire, either.

By the way, that same issue reviews the new Sunfire CRM speakers he also designed. They certainly sound interesting. I don't have as much respect for TAS as they tend to be overly nice and whitewash a lot of things, not to mention the lack of measurements (as opposed to Stereophile), but it is still a good read, I suppose. The interview with Rob Halford was also entertaining.

[E-Stat]

I don't have as much respect for TAS as they tend to be overly nice and whitewash a lot of things...

Things changed quite a bit once HP was no longer steering the ship.

rw

[hermanv]

Things changed quite a bit once HP was no longer steering the ship.

rw

TAS does have the best subjective reviews if you pick the right reviewer.

HP seems pretty far gone, remember his review of the "Hurricane" by Antique Sound Lab as the best amplifier in existence? Please, a Chinese product quickly forgotten by the audiophile community.