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  1. #1
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    Newbie, but not clueless needs advice

    Hello all, this is my first post in these forums and certainly not to be my last! I have actually moderated for years at a Search Engine Optimizing community so I'm sure I won't grate on your nerves like a pair of Kenwood speakers driven by a Emerson receiver would

    I need some information and I will roll a few questions into one post, which I know can be a pain so any information is appreciated.

    1) What sound advantage does one gain when pairing a dedicated power amp with a pre-amp over an integrated amp?

    I ask this as I have just purchased a NAD 2600A power amp which I will use with my NAD 3240 integrated amp as a pre-amp. I am assuming that both will be well matched as they are from the same era of production back in the day of the Power Envelope technology. Where do you expect to find sonic improvement when doing this?

    2) Seeing as how both amp and pre-amp have the soft clipping control where would you set the soft clipping filter, from the amp or pre-amp?

    I am driving some Energy C-5's coupled with an NAD C521BEE CD player. I am hoping keeping to all NAD components helps unify the musicality of the system.

    From what I have read many people seem to feel that unless you spend big money it will be hard to beat some of the classic components such as the NADs I have mentioned above. Do you agree? Keep in mind I have no interest in AV application, I purely listen to music with my system.

    3) Lastly, what is the relation to the source recording and volume adjusting with your amp? For instance, is an old recording at volume level 5 which sounds less loud drawing the same power as a newer recording at volume level 3 which would sound louder? I suspect the newer recording draws more power to reproduce the sound, but in truth I am very ignorant when it comes to this relationship.

    I know that it is bad manners to post several questions in one post so I hope you all take it easy on me. Any information will be appreciated.


  2. #2
    RGA
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    That's some first post. And hey the Kenwood speakers may be less irritating than some (Ahem bose) speakers.

    1) The sound advantage is not ever a gaurantee when going separates and can in fact be a disadvantage (some systems create more noise - the internal short wiring is not spread out over two boxes). Generally speaking though separates can add a better sense of space - I had very good results adding a Bryston to my Old receiver taking out the Receiver's power amp section and basically using the Bryston. On the other hand I've heard systems with integrated's sound much better (but often against another company not from its own. My OTO is classified as an Integrated amplifier but it in fact is two separates components put together in one big case - so it also depends on who and how the integrated is being defined.

    2) Agreed -- if the company actually listens to their equipment (not all do - some just hire people to design to a spec or accountants bottom line or marketers appearance request) but assuming NAD has some person who sits and listens and decides and painstakingly goes over every combination then theoretically their amps and cd players will have a sonic viewpoint which is well mated to eachother. And if NAD doesn't do this it won't much matter because you'll be no worse off then by mixing and matching. Beware though as some NAD's like the 320bee was contracted out and I found it to be much worse than any other NAD amp I've ever heard. - though the reviews will say different.

    3) the recording is recorded louder - newer recordings are artifically pumped up and often have far less dynamics because it starting at a point much higher than it ought to start at. I have a few Ray Charles and other 1960s recordings which are very well done and will pound the snot out of virtually any new pop/rock recording I have. The new recordings do pyrotechnics perceptually better - but you can't generalize here.

    The volume control is a gain device - you can generally here how much you can turn it up -- when you hear distortion you've hit the limit of your system's volume capability. Vlume ability is far more about the ease of drive of your speaker than it is about the power of your amplifier. My Amp is 10 watts and I can blow you out the door to ear pain levels and bass rattling the walls. Luckily the Energy is fairly easy to drive and a good bargain speaker that I think out matches a number of more expensive speakers (the C9 certainly does to me). An integrated of 25 watts should be more than satisfactory -- if it's high quality. I'd love to hear the Sugden A21a pure class A single ended SS amp run those Energy's -- that might be a stonkingly good budget system.

    The Sugden is 25 watts but man that would be interesting. http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=1933

  3. #3
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Welcome, and a few thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by The Grudge
    Hello all, this is my first post in these forums and certainly not to be my last!
    ...
    I need some information and I will roll a few questions into one post, which I know can be a pain so any information is appreciated.

    1) What sound advantage does one gain when pairing a dedicated power amp with a pre-amp over an integrated amp?
    ...
    From what I have read many people seem to feel that unless you spend big money it will be hard to beat some of the classic components such as the NADs I have mentioned above. Do you agree? Keep in mind I have no interest in AV application, I purely listen to music with my system.
    ...
    I know that it is bad manners to post several questions in one post so I hope you all take it easy on me. Any information will be appreciated.

    Welcome; glad to see an enthusiasitc newcomer.

    Separate pre- and power amps is no guarantee of better sound. Indeed, there is is the potential for degradation because of additional amplification stages that are omitted in some integrated designs, not to mention you have to use interconnects.

    The main inherent advantage of separates is flexibility. Not only can you replace one or the other, but often you it is easier to implement a bi-amp set, install signal processors, and that sort of thing that requires that something be placed between the control and power functions. For example, my Bel Canto eVo2i integrated is a super amp but it doesn't have "power in" connections: this makes it difficult to bi-amp; (viz. use separate power amps for the bass and high range speaker drivers).

    The other thing is, yes, in general it's going to require a lot more investment to upgrade from the sort of equipment you have now, (apart from swapping one set of defects for another that you might prefer). There are a few great bargains out there, (not to mention used equipment), but overall expect to at least double your investment.

    For what it's worth, here's one possible stereo/music combo that would provide a very significant, (that is really noticeable ), upgrade over what you're listening to now:
    • Magneplanar MG 1.6QR speakers: US$1900
    • PS Audio GCC-100 integrated amp: $2800
    • Marantz SA8260 CD/SACD player: $1000.
    That's north of 6 grand when you add interconnects and speaker cables.

  4. #4
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    Hello, thank you both for input. I must say it sounds somewhat discouraging so I will ask for more input. Perhaps some more information will enable people to better answer my posts. My listening style in terms of music styles is diverse, but predominantly hard music such as Tool and Disturbed, but I also listen to classical music and softer ambient music like Tears for Fears and Sting. Volume wise I almost never turn the volume control to the half way point with my NAD 3240 integrated. If I was to average things out I would say I listen to the system mostly on the quieter side of things. My 8 month old daughter accounts for this listening style She does like loud music mind you, it is her mother who makes me turn it down, big surprise there I'm sure.

    So with the above information and given the fact that my existing integrated amp drives my speakers very well it seems will having the more powerful NAD 2600A power amp in tandem with the 3240 as a pre have any chance at providing any net gain for my listening pleasure? From what I have heard above it sounds like almost a guarantee that for me I will actually degrade the sound quality, perhaps enough to actually hear it noticeably, is that likely the case?

    My thought when purchasing the power amp was that the extra power even when not utilized would provide a stronger signal and thus have more musical prescience at all listening levels. I suspect the last sentence reveals how little I actually know about how audio equipment really functions.

    I think the two separates will be virtually identical in sonic quality as they are both about the same age and from the same technological approach by NAD, the Power Envelope circuitry design. So if the only difference is raw power potential am I correct in assuming then the separates will not provide any sound quality gain? Is there ever a time when doing what I have done can improve the sound without being used for bi-wired systems?

    By the way Feanor, is your handle inspired by Tolkien as I suspect? Thanks for any who offer me their input.


  5. #5
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    I think what RGA and others are trying to say is that quality will be different depending on the components you use. Some people have it in their mind that any pre and power setup will always be better then a integrated, but it has been proven by many mid-fi and hi-end brands that this just isnt the case. Keeping things simple and minimizing the path may benefit the sound better then adding more power from a external amp.

    But also as RGA was saying is that most companies that produce great int. amps, also make wonderful pre and power systems. I am sure the Jolida envoy $9k preamp and mono amps will be much better then their high end integrated. But say for instance you use a Bel Canto evo integrated or the sugden a21, and think your sound will improve by moving to a NAD pre/power setup, it might not.

    I am sure you will enjoy your new amp, but there might just be a better integrated out there that will better it for the same money...

    It it worth it to find out? Thats your choice

  6. #6
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Grudge
    ...
    So with the above information and given the fact that my existing integrated amp drives my speakers very well it seems will having the more powerful NAD 2600A power amp in tandem with the 3240 as a pre have any chance at providing any net gain for my listening pleasure? From what I have heard above it sounds like almost a guarantee that for me I will actually degrade the sound quality, perhaps enough to actually hear it noticeably, is that likely the case?
    ...
    I think the two separates will be virtually identical in sonic quality as they are both about the same age and from the same technological approach by NAD, the Power Envelope circuitry design. So if the only difference is raw power potential am I correct in assuming then the separates will not provide any sound quality gain? Is there ever a time when doing what I have done can improve the sound without being used for bi-wired systems?

    By the way Feanor, is your handle inspired by Tolkien as I suspect? Thanks for any who offer me their input.
    I'm not familiar with the NAD models in question, though I did own a NAD C270 power amp at one point. Basically I don't think you will notice much difference, (better or worse), between the integrated alone and the integrated-power combo, at least at your typical listening levels; (hey, just my guess though).

    By the way if you're mainly a rocker the Magneplanars might not be the ticket. RGA can provide lots of suggestions; (I think he likes Energy C9's in the price range).

    Of course: the moniker is from JRRT

  7. #7
    RGA
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    Well if you already have the power amp then it's worth a shot. The preamp influences the sound more than the power amp -- the preamp section on NAD gear is the weaker point though and this is what I would be upgrading.

    I doubt the sound will be any worse and it may provide more grip -- but it's speaker dependant.

  8. #8
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    I won the 2600A on ebay against a very determined bidder for $230 US and it will arrive by the end of this week. I will consider upgrading to a different pre-amp for next year. Despite having a new baby at home I have treated myself to a new CD player, the C-5s also new, and now this power amp. I think if I went for the new pre-amp my wife would put me outside.

    You said any potential gain/drain on the sound would be speaker dependant. Well that is not so bad, I think despite the lack of pedigree, the Energy C-5s are a very nice entry level speaker. They seem to handle most music very well and some exceptionally well. My impression is that they do most things well and what they do lack in is really not devestating to their ability to deliver solid sound. To really leverage better speakers, I suspect I would need better driving components to really bring things up a level worth the trouble. I will read about pre-amps here and plan that as my next purchase.

    I am lucky as the room I have the system in has pretty decent accoustics. Nice really thick carpet, heavy cyrtains behind the speakers, solid walls, medium low ceiling with rounded corners, and right accross from the speakers is a nice couch. There isn't quite enough width to move away from the speakers optimally, but it is acceptable, about 6 feet from the speakers. I would like to be about 7 feet away from the speakers.

    Earlier I asked which component should I use the soft clipping protection from NAD on, the power or pre-amp? Both have the circuitry so is one better than the other or do I turn it on for both components? Thanks.


  9. #9
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    You'll be fine

    Quote Originally Posted by The Grudge
    I...

    Earlier I asked which component should I use the soft clipping protection from NAD on, the power or pre-amp? Both have the circuitry so is one better than the other or do I turn it on for both components? Thanks.

    By all means use the integrated-power combination. It is most unlikely to be less good than the integrated alone. My guess is that you ought to use the soft-clipping on the power amp only. Do you know for certain that the integrated's soft-clipping is implemented in the pre-amp section? That is, before the "preamp out" connections? If not, it won't work anyway. Alternatively, you can leave the soft-clipping off unless you intent to play very loud, (partytime or whatever). In general, soft-clipping can only degrade the sound at lower levels.

    My standard advice is to upgrade speakers first, and that applies in your case too. You will notice more difference putting your bucks there than elsewhere. Granted, if your next speakers are premium quality, (e.g. Paradigm Reference, Totem, Von Schweikert, Splendor, whatever), you will eventually want better amplification, but the amp can wait awhile if necessary.

  10. #10
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    Thanks for the further input there Feanor. I would love to make the jump to the next level in speakers, but the reality of needing to invest at least $1500 - $2000 cdn to really make a difference slows me down. Still, in a few years time I will make the jump into better speakers, for now I will have to live with the ordinary,

    As for the distances I mentioned in my previous post I must have been on crack. I am actually about eight feet away from the speakers which are themselves six feet apart. I still think I would love to be about two feet further away, but that damn wall. I wonder about taking it out. Imagine trying to convince my wife why I needed to move a wall back was to get a few feet further clearance from the speakers. My guess is that conversation would end quickly.


  11. #11
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    I did the same thing

    My first real stereo system was the classic NAD 3020 integrated amplifier. After a few years, I supplemented that system with an NAD 2155 amplifier using the 3020 as a preamp. Since I lived in small apartments at the time, volume was always an issue, however, even at lower listening levels, the larger power amplifier gave my system a much more robust bottom end using the same speakers. I was pleased with the results and used that system in that configuration for many years.

  12. #12
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    Thanks squeegy200, that is nice to hear. I hadn't given up any hope as I am an optimist. In the many reviews of NAD equipment I have read, the general consensus is that you can get better sound than you pay for, in particular with their classics from the late 80's early 90's. The owner of the 2600A assures me it is mint and was only ever used in his home system and has never been repaired.

    My 32400 has been great with no problems at all. I lucked into the integrated amp years ago in a little take out chinese place. I saw the unit behind the counter and noticed it was a NAD. The owner and I chatted about the quality and he asked me if I wanted to buy one from him. He had another restaurant that they closed and the 3240 was just used to run very quiet diner music so it was mint. I paid $150.00 cdn for it taxes in and I can guarantee you few people will ever get a sweeter deal than that. I have had years of 100% trouble free operation and I have used it well. It should make a nice pre-amp for now coupled with the 2600A power amp.


  13. #13
    RGA
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    The Energy C series is greatly underrated and you'd probably need something mroe than than even Feaner suggested. It's not abou the money you spend but about what you buy. I recently heard a $70,000.00 SS system that would require bigger men that i to move the stuff around that on a sound quality level I would not trade my set-up in for it in a million years -- well unless I could sell it and use the money to make improvements I want.

    The Energy C9 is about where I would stop spending on the slim line design floorstander because beyond that point the speakers tend to be a "more of the same" and some are marginally better some worse but generally not worth it.

    For instance if I had the C5 I would not trade up and spend a lot more money for the itsy bitsy better B&W 703 at about 8 times the price. And I already think the C9 is better than any current Paradigm I've auditioned.

    In my opinion you've done just about as well as one can do for the budget and also in my opinionn done a lot better than some people who spent a lot more money. I speak in terms of bang for buch here in that yes there are better speakers but it's more about how much you gain in sound quality for how much you pay to get it. Is paying 8 times more for a 5% improvement worth it? maybe if it was 40% better then ok.

    In fact i would consider Energy myself for a home theater set-up simply because it's fairly inexpensive relative to what one could spend and would be more than satisfactory. But I'm a few years off making any upgrades.and I have a turntable and a CD player that comes first.

  14. #14
    nightflier
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    Clipping Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    ...In general, soft-clipping can only degrade the sound at lower levels.
    Feanor,

    Maybe I'm not understanding what clipping does. I didn't think it made a difference at low volumes. I've set it to "on" on my NAD integrated. What exactly does it do?

  15. #15
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Can't tell you exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Feanor,

    Maybe I'm not understanding what clipping does. I didn't think it made a difference at low volumes. I've set it to "on" on my NAD integrated. What exactly does it do?
    Flier, my technical understanding of how it works is zilch, but I believe the "soft clipping" is intended to mitigate the extremely harsh sound associated with solid state amps being driven beyond their limits. (It is not the same as overload protect, or so I understand.)

    The issue is whether "soft clipping" can effect the sound below the point of clipping, i.e. when not being driven hard. If you don't hear any difference with feature enabled vs. disabled, might as well leave it on.

  16. #16
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    Pre/Poweramps

    The pre amp is probably the most under rated component.Most people only realise this when they hear really good ones-like the Supratek ones for example.Unfortunately most pre amps sound quite poor and hold back the rest of their system.The pre is like a camera lens-it gives focus,clarity and depth to the sound.Having a poor pre in a good system is like having an average lens on a really good camera-you will still only get average results.A good pre with an average power amp however can still give really good sound.
    Some of the NAD pre amps are very good and I suspect that much of the success of this company has been built on this.I know of several people using NAD pre amps in very good sounding systems,The NAD power amps get all the hype but they are really nothing special[although obvious good value.]
    The NAD 1100 and 1240 seem to be good but there are probably others that I have not heard that are as good or better.These work very well with valve power amps.

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