New toys on their way...

[nightflier]

For clarification, are the Monarchys the original SM-70 or the Pro model? But they have a similar sonic signature so I hear. I have the Pros and love 'em. Certainly a warmer sound than the Tripath Bel Canto I used for several years, although "lush" would be an overstatement.

The SM-70's arrive yesterday. Now, I know my way around amps, but the Monarchy manual makes very little sense. I finally figured out how to hook up the amps with balanced cables and have been enjoying them, but I still have to figure out how to hook up RCA cables (the coming preamp won't have XLR). Is there a web link that explains this in actual English?

By the way, the amps sound fantastic. I have them hooked up to a Threshold T3 preamp right now and the sound is anything but warm or lush. It is powerful, clear, detailed, and the imaging is spot on. And they can play pretty friggin loud, too. The Khites are 8 ohm and fairly stable, so they don't represent a tough load, but over the next couple of days I'll try a few others: Quad 22L, Meadowlark Swifts, and the old Klipsch RB5-II standbys.

Now since the Candela pre is RCA only, will I be giving up a lot when hooked up to these amps? Even if I ask Odyssey to install XLR's, I wonder if that will truly be balanced. And then I'm sure that will cost me too.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Hey Rich, isn't it illegal in Texas to stare at another man's ass and wear black socks at the same time?

Okay wait a second, I missed this.

Texans don't wear black socks. You must be thinking of the Canadians who wear black socks and sandals on the beaches in Galveston and Padre Island.

Edit: nightflier's a cowboy, why don't you ask him?

[Mr Peabody]

NF, it sounds like you have a pretty good collection of gear. That Threshold should be a pretty good pre.

Odyssey would have to redesign their pre to be truly balanced. A lot of manufactures will tap off the output line and make a XLR out. Even ARC has been known to do that. But these products are not the same animal as Krell, BAT or a hand full that are truly balanced. It must be a selling point though because the list of manufacturers that at least have some true balanced products are growing. I am very curious to hear some BAT tube gear. Most of the balanced gear I've heard has been more on the high current analytical side and it would be interesting to see how that topology mixes with tubes.

[Feanor]

The SM-70's arrive yesterday. Now, I know my way around amps, but the Monarchy manual makes very little sense. I finally figured out how to hook up the amps with balanced cables and have been enjoying them, but I still have to figure out how to hook up RCA cables (the coming preamp won't have XLR). Is there a web link that explains this in actual English?
...

Now since the Candela pre is RCA only, will I be giving up a lot when hooked up to these amps? Even if I ask Odyssey to install XLR's, I wonder if that will truly be balanced. And then I'm sure that will cost me too.

'Flier, glad your Monarchys arrived in good order. I'm not surprised your enjoying the sound. PersonalIy I found that the difference between single-end and bridged operation is extremely slight, so your Candela should do the job nicely.

No, the manual isn't exactly a strong point. However there's no problem running the amps in mono with RCA inputs. Have a look at the picture below: in the middle under the Balanced Input is a small toggle switch which you will need to set correctly.

For bridged operation from an RCA input, flip the switch to the up position and connect the RCA to the "Input A Mono In" RCA connector pictured to left. Pausing to read carefully, you'll see that that's actually what it says on the back of the amp: "UP for bridged operation, Input A", (hang the manual). Of course, you'll connect our speaker wires to the left and right Red speaker terminals for mono operation.

Incidentally, always set the switch to down if you are using XLR connectors, even if the source is putting out a single-ended signal.
...

[nightflier]

For bridged operation from an RCA input, flip the switch to the up position and connect the RCA to the "Input A Mono In" RCA connector pictured to left. Pausing to read carefully, you'll see that that's actually what it says on the back of the amp: "UP for bridged operation, Input A", (hang the manual). Of course, you'll connect our speaker wires to the left and right Red speaker terminals for mono operation. Incidentally, always set the switch to down if you are using XLR connectors, even if the source is putting out a single-ended signal.

That's what I guessed.

BTW, I had a few minutes last night to play the Klipsch speakers. Wow, I never heard these sound that good. 'Could be that I never really used them with my high-output amps; I always figured that the Klipsch were for low-powered amps, so the big guns were never hooked up. I would say that the combination is a tad bright and etchy, particularly at high volumes, but if everything is set right, the volume low and I'm sitting exactly in the center, they sound extremely good with the Monarchy amps. Definitely will have to hear them with a tubed preamp.

One more thought: these amps get freakishly hot. I'm using risers to separate them from each other, but even with the highly efficient Klipsch they became very hot, too hot to touch, for sure.

[Feanor]

That's what I guessed.

BTW, I had a few minutes last night to play the Klipsch speakers. Wow, I never heard these sound that good. 'Could be that I never really used them with my high-output amps; I always figured that the Klipsch were for low-powered amps, so the big guns were never hooked up. I would say that the combination is a tad bright and etchy, particularly at high volumes, but if everything is set right, the volume low and I'm sitting exactly in the center, they sound extremely good with the Monarchy amps. Definitely will have to hear them with a tubed preamp.

One more thought: these amps get freakishly hot. I'm using risers to separate them from each other, but even with the highly efficient Klipsch they became very hot, too hot to touch, for sure.

I find "bright and etchy" a bit unexpected. If these are new amps a little burn in is in order, though not hundreds of hours. Other than that, I think they take 10-20 to reach best sound after switch on. Or maybe it's just the Klipsh. Bear in mind that the Monarchy SM-70 Pros aren't really high power amps. Only 80 wpc into 8 ohms or 120 into 4.

Yes, they run quite warm. This isn't unexpected give their high-bias design. If you want to drive them hard, give them plenty of breathing space.

[jrhymeammo]

I bet they sound pretty damn sweet with right speakers. Massive heat-sinks, especially for their size.
I still regret that I never got to try Monarchy amps with Maggies. Perhaps later down the road....

Enjoy,

[jrhymeammo]

Okay wait a second, I missed this.

Texans don't wear black socks. You must be thinking of the Canadians who wear black socks and sandals on the beaches in Galveston and Padre Island.

Edit: nightflier's a cowboy, why don't you ask him?

Hey NF,
Is it true that only Texans wear spurs inside of their home? Or was that only cowboys who got lost and found himself living in Cali?

[nightflier]

Hey NF,
Is it true that only Texans wear spurs inside of their home? Or was that only cowboys who got lost and found himself living in Cali?

Well, I dated a cowgirl in college who suggested wearing spurs to bed.... Well, not really, but she did wear her hat to bed once (no whips, though), LOL.

Anyhow, I got some more hours on these amps now and can say that I am liking them more and more. I did get to drive them to their limits, although not to clipping, and I will say that at their limit they are etched and not as pleasant sounding. The Khites can handle oodles of power and so I wanted to push it: I pulled out some of my old rock recordings (Scorpions, VH, Maiden, Priest, Zepp, Rainbow...). One of my favorite tracks is In Search Of The Peace Of Mind from the Scorpion's first album, and I really liked the way the bass guitar came through - it often gets washed out on other systems. Montrose's unmistakable voice also sounded very clear and open and I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm going to say the amps have a bit of an emphasis in the upper mids.

Needless to say the family wasn't home and after a while the neighbor came by to complain (more about the music selection, I think). He knows about my "hobby" so I invited him in to hear the system. He's not a rocker, but he asked if he could bring over some of his own stuff. Well after another few hours of playing Joy Division, The Smiths, Depressed, I mean Depeche Mode, and other stuff I didn't know too well, I did get a very good sense of what these amps can do. Curtis's voice again was a little too much front & center and while I say it's over-emphasized in the upper mids, maybe this is because I've always gravitated to a more laid back sound. Or maybe I've been listening to PS Audio amps too long... Hmmmm

The neighbor, by the way was shocked at how much better this sounded to his system - it's always nice to hear that, especially when it is, as he put it, so g*d damn f*ing clear (I think he got his English education from Pete Burns rather than Morrissey). He does have an all Sony setup, so I wasn't too surprised. Any suggestions I have made over the years as to how he could improve things had to include Sony-branded solutions - so I didn't say much this time. Well at least this may get him to upgrade from the Sony speakers, which would probably offer up the biggest improvement w/o too much of a cultural shift.

Anyhow, I wanted to post some pics, but I don't have a website to host them. Is there a public (i.e. free) hosting service I can use that anyone can recommend?

[basite]

Anyhow, I wanted to post some pics, but I don't have a website to host them. Is there a public (i.e. free) hosting service I can use that anyone can recommend?

well, The Audio review photo gallery would do fine too :d

upload the pics there, and when they're uploaded, click them to view them, and then click them again to show them full size, then right click, and select 'copy picture location' (or the like), and paste the link here with [img] (link) [/img] brackets around them...

another site is Flickr although I haven't uploaded any pictures there

Keep them spinning
Bert.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I use Photobucket nightflier. I get plenty of room to store pictures and I've never had any trouble accessing them. Bert's right though. If you use the AR.com Photo Gallery it makes including them in your posts pretty easy. You'll probably want to reduce their size so people aren't overwhelmed.

[nightflier]

So there they are. I took the picture right after unpacking.

The Candela should be arriving next week and I'll take pictures of it as soon as I unpack. Speaking of that, it will actually have XLRs, not fully balanced unfortunately, but this does open up all sorts of possibilities such as adding a subwoofer or easily comparing the two outputs. I wasn't too happy that it didn't offer balanced outputs, so I was going to cancel the order, but then Klaus called me back and offered this as an extra cost option and I went for it. Some other details: it also will forgo the HT bypass (I have no use for that) and offer one extra input instead. I also ordered the optional remote (volume only, but it's still better than nothing). Getting the preamp so customized is definitely a plus and is one of the main reasons I decided on Odyssey. I've seen people doing cosmetic upgrades too like wooden cabinets, so I may do something like that as well. My brother is a professional welder / artist and so I'll see if he has some thoughts. Anyhow, I can't wait to hear it.

[Mr Peabody]

So you feel the Monarchy amps are an improvement over the PS Audio? Or, just different?

I'm not familiar with Monarchy but PSA gets a lot of good talk.

[nightflier]

So you feel the Monarchy amps are an improvement over the PS Audio? Or, just different?

Oh this is going to spark quite a debate, I think. But I will say that I think the Monarchy amps are more involving, and I suspect this is because of a slight emphasis in the upper mids. That said, PS Audio amps have tons more power (even the HCA-2 is a monster in comparison). When I push the Monarchys to extremely high levels (mind you, not something I would ever do if listening for pleasure), then the power limitations are easily apparent. But they have more clarity and life at lower volumes, so yes, I am putting my vote behind the Monarchy (somehow that sounds a little off).

One big caveat is the heat these Monarchys put out - it's a lot more than any other amp I ever had, you can cook an egg on that amp after a couple of hours of listening. I almost feel like I'm going to have to keep at least one Class-D amp around just for those times I need the high volume and the temperature control. Here in SoCal, especially this summer, the air-con bills are going through the roof, not to mention how environmentally unfriendly this is (don't tell Rich I said that).

[Rich-n-Texas]

Oh this is going to spark quite a debate, I think. But I will say that I think the Monarchy amps are more involving, and I suspect this is because of a slight emphasis in the upper mids. That said, PS Audio amps have tons more power (even the HCA-2 is a monster in comparison). When I push the Monarchys to extremely high levels (mind you, not something I would ever do if listening for pleasure), then the power limitations are easily apparent. But they have more clarity and life at lower volumes, so yes, I am putting my vote behind the Monarchy (somehow that sounds a little off).

One big caveat is the heat these Monarchys put out - it's a lot more than any other amp I ever had, you can cook an egg on that amp after a couple of hours of listening. I almost feel like I'm going to have to keep at least one Class-D amp around just for those times I need the high volume and the temperature control. Here in SoCal, especially this summer, the air-con bills are going through the roof, not to mention how environmentally unfriendly this is (don't tell Rich I said that).

Too late!

Due to poor air circulation in my attic, my living room gets to about 79 degrees even with the central air conditioner running, on 100 degree days. The compressor runs without shutting off for 4 hours or more with the thermostat set at 78. When I'm listening to CD's and such in 2 channel straight mode, I feel very little heat at the top of my amp. This is true even when the room is seeing 90 dB. In my setup the TV is the biggest heat producer, with the receiver being #2.

As far as environmentally unfriendly? You'll never see me driving a "Smart" car.

[Feanor]

Oh this is going to spark quite a debate, I think. But I will say that I think the Monarchy amps are more involving, and I suspect this is because of a slight emphasis in the upper mids. That said, PS Audio amps have tons more power (even the HCA-2 is a monster in comparison). When I push the Monarchys to extremely high levels (mind you, not something I would ever do if listening for pleasure), then the power limitations are easily apparent. But they have more clarity and life at lower volumes, so yes, I am putting my vote behind the Monarchy (somehow that sounds a little off).

One big caveat is the heat these Monarchys put out - it's a lot more than any other amp I ever had, you can cook an egg on that amp after a couple of hours of listening. I almost feel like I'm going to have to keep at least one Class-D amp around just for those times I need the high volume and the temperature control. Here in SoCal, especially this summer, the air-con bills are going through the roof, not to mention how environmentally unfriendly this is (don't tell Rich I said that).

I've never noticed an upper-mid-range emphasis with the Monarchys, but then I've never had the PS Audio for comparison, (I did own a Class D Bel Canto.) Perhaps the issue is synergy -- your Talons vs. my Magneplanar? On the other hand I agree that they have plenty of "clarity and life".

Presumably you are driving the Monarchys harder than I do. They certainly run warm, (for that matter they idle rather warm), but I couldn't fry eggs on mine.

[nightflier]

I've never noticed an upper-mid-range emphasis with the Monarchys, but then I've never had the PS Audio for comparison, (I did own a Class D Bel Canto.) Perhaps the issue is synergy -- your Talons vs. my Magneplanar? On the other hand I agree that they have plenty of "clarity and life".

Presumably you are driving the Monarchys harder than I do. They certainly run warm, (for that matter they idle rather warm), but I couldn't fry eggs on mine.

For the heck of it, I put a pan on one of the amps with an egg in it, but aside from a little bit of cooking, no omelette. However, I did discover some interesting new things:

- The Plinius CD-LAD pre-amp is less bright and more neutral, so the mid-trebble emphasis may have been the Threshold T-3. Also tried the PS Audio PCA-2 but that was a touch darker than with the Plinius and kind of makes me loose even more of the sexyness of the Monarchys: their clarity and openness.

- Klipsch speakers are just a bad match, period. Probably synergy more than anything else but it may also be that the Monarchys are in a different league altogether. The best synergy was actually with another set of speakers, the Meadowlark Swifts. I think this has to do with the fact that they are more tube-friendly (sort-of) and the Monarchys are not extremely powerful. It almost gives me an idea for a new direction in what I'm trying to achieve (see below). The Talons do a good job, but may be overkill, here. They eat amplifiers for lunch and want as much as you can throw at them (the manual says that they are rated to be able to handle 500W into 8 Ohms). The Monarchys sound fine with them, but the Swifts were a touch better and a more natural/organic sounding match. This really threw me for a loop, because I never really cared too much for the Meadowlarks and was getting ready to sell them. Now don't get me wrong, the Khites are awesome speakers and still my reference, but I just think they are a better match with much higher-powered amps - they need lots of volume to really sound fantastic, and I'm not so sure the Monarchys are loud-players.

- Driving them full-bore, there is an improvement in sound when using lower gauge (i.e. thicker) speaker cables. The Mapleshades have not yet arrived, but that gives me pause about their svelte appearance. I must have tried half a dozen 8-12' cables and while they sound slightly different (when I can actually tell this), the only consistent difference is that thicker sounds better. I guess that sounds a little silly, if you think about it - isn't that what should be the case? Anyhow, I'll leave it at that - we'll see if Mapleshade cables prove me wrong.

- I still don't have a digital source I feel comfortable with to confirm everything. Currently I'm passing everything through my trusty Aragon D2A dac and I could be introducing serious limitations with such an old processor. Now this DAC is no slouch, it bested my MSB and Arcam dacs, but it's been so long since I have had any other alternatives, including a decent transport (currently using Audio Refinement Complete CD), that I really should have something better before proceeding. I'm still in the market for a $2K player, but with what I've purchased recently I'm sort of out of funds for a while.

So now back to my new plan. Instead of having one reference setup, I am stuck with two systems in the making (I know, that sounds a bit extravagant). But he issue is that I just don't know that everything is going to gel as well as I would like. Basically, I'm not willing to part with some components (like the Talons) just because they don't mesh as well with my amps as others that have up until now proven to be less impressive (like the Meadowlarks).

This really flies in the face of my downsizing plans. Not only will my wife not like this but this is obviously going to be more expensive over time, not to say anything about two systems being a whole lot less green. So with those things in mind, I was thinking that I should really put everything on one big, tall component rack. Space-wise the only additional space would be for the extra pair of speakers - not ideal, but maybe passable. One mitigating factor is that I'd only use one at a time and could leave the power off on the other. Actually if I stick with a Class-D amp for the other system, that could be my summer-run-cool system.

Which leaves me with this hypothetical moral question: is a 500W class-D amp really more green than a 70W regular amp? Yes the little guy produces a lot of heat, but then there is Winter....

[nightflier]

OK, I just received notice that my preamp is almost ready. But I need to let them know how the XLR pin-outs are wired. Does anyone know which pin is ground, which is normal polarity (hot) and which pin is inverted polarity (cold)? Most amps out there are 1=ground, 2=hot (closest to notch), 3=cold, but then there's always that odd-bird out there (Levinson for one) who feel a need to do things differently. Is the SM-70 one of those odd birds?

[hermanv]

As long as ground stays the same the other two just invert absolute polarity. If needed you can just invert the speaker wires.

[nightflier]

As long as ground stays the same the other two just invert absolute polarity. If needed you can just invert the speaker wires.

ground is the one that is usually swapped with pin 2, no?

Of course this would cause a nasty ground loop. Any danger to my equipment I should be worried about?

[hermanv]

ground is the one that is usually swapped with pin 2, no?

Of course this would cause a nasty ground loop. Any danger to my equipment I should be worried about?

No! Some equipment comes with only balanced inputs, the manual will tell you to ground the unused polarity when it is used with an unbalanced source.

Although the gain drops, I have read posts that claim a cleaner sound when people with single ended signals driving balanced inputs leave the other polarity open. Makes no sense to me, but if it sounds good who cares if it makes sense?

[Feanor]

OK, I just received notice that my preamp is almost ready. But I need to let them know how the XLR pin-outs are wired. Does anyone know which pin is ground, which is normal polarity (hot) and which pin is inverted polarity (cold)? Most amps out there are 1=ground, 2=hot (closest to notch), 3=cold, but then there's always that odd-bird out there (Levinson for one) who feel a need to do things differently. Is the SM-70 one of those odd birds?

As far as I know the Monarchy polarity is standard, see below.

It's worth noting that the 'hot' and 'cold' contacts are actually both 'hot', i.e. providing signal, in true balance operation. Both are alternating current but out of phase: while one is 'pushing' the other is 'pulling'.

Exchanging the hot for cold is meaningless -- unless you believe absolute polarity makes a big difference. I'm not so sure about exchanging one of the actives for ground: but I suspect it isn't a big deal. I have made XLR<=>RCA hybrids by jumping 1 and 3 with no bad consequences.
...

[nightflier]

I just got an email from CC and the pin-outs on the Monarchy SM-70 Pro are standard: 1=ground, 2=hot (+), 3=cold (-).

So the Candella with XLR outs is shipping today. According to Klaus this is the first of its kind (that has dual outputs and one of which is XLR), so I'm pretty excited about that. They have tested it already and were very happy with the results, so it also won't need as much burn-in. I'll also be able to test the RCAs against the XLRs. Yes, I know this isn't truly balanced, but it still gives me the option of two outputs - I can use the second for a subwoofer.

I ordered the plain black bezel rather than the silver, and added the remote. The remote is volume & mute only, since the input switching would affect the sound too much. I also opted to forgo the HT bypass and just made that another input. The tubes are the standard ones, which are supposed to be middle-of-the-road in sound, but they asked me to keep those in for a few months before I roll them to get familiar with the sound. I like to tweak things, so I can't promise I'll stick to that. I will try some other tweaks like sorbotane feet, spikes, different cables and tube dampers (all of which I have little faith in but want to try nonetheless), but I guess I'll wait on those as well. This is my first experience owning a tube component (I've auditioned some but never kept any), but apparently these are relatively low-maintenance and should last 5-7 years. I also don't know how hot this preamp will get, so that will be a discovery as well. Anyhow, this hobby is all about learning new things, right? Once it arrives I will post some pictures, some topless ones.

Let's see if I can sum that up: she wears black & spikes, takes a little while to warm up but can get pretty hot, wants me to wait a few months before I roll her, is willing to pose topless, will be good to me for 5-7 years, and is going to teach me new things. Ouch!

[nightflier]

Well it's here and it does have the XLR outputs. It came with a remote that obviously doesn't match - I probably should have saved the money and asked for the non-remote version. It has buttons for several other functions but only volume and mute work on it. The unit also shipped without instructions, although it doesn't look too hard to figure out. Otherwise it's a very solidly-built preamp and heavy too. I'm not crazy about the RCA jacks as I was hopping that they would be attached to the chasis like my other gear, but they aren't flimsy either (I'm picky about this, because on my Outlaw preamp, one of the component video RCA jacks broke loose and sending it in for repairs means I'll be without surround sound for weeks - maybe it's time to finally upgrade that one).

Ironically my Spectron D1 just came back from the shop as well. So this will be a good opportunity to put that up against the Monarchy amps. My expectation is it will sound about as different as two types of amps can be. The Spectron has been repaired twice now, both times for the same reason: the left channel crapped out. They assure me that it is now back up to spec and that it should work for years, even decades, w/o problems. Well we'll see about that.

I'll also compare the Candela with the Plinius CD-LAD. Again, I'm expecting some significant differences. If there is one thing the 'LAD has been consistent about is that it is the most neutral preamp I have ever owned - everything I've compared it to has sounded slightly emphasized in one area or another. Like with the Threshold preamp, this has sometimes led me to believe it is lacking in some way, but after some a/b testing I always seem to fall back on the 'LAD's neutrality. That is one amazing preamp. Comparing it to the tubed Candela should be interesting. Klaus said that he was very pleased with the sound before he shipped it out and would like to know what I think of it as well.

Unfortunately I will be out of town this weekend, so I won't be able to listen to it much before that. But I should have time to post more pictures of the units before I leave.

[Feanor]

...

Ironically my Spectron D1 just came back from the shop as well. So this will be a good opportunity to put that up against the Monarchy amps. My expectation is it will sound about as different as two types of amps can be.
...

'Flier, do you have a link to Candela specs, etc.? It seems it isn't included on the Odyssey, (not Audyssey) website which is pretty wierd.

Spectron is, of course, one of the longest standing digital manufactures and have an excellent rep for sound, so comparision with the Monarchys will be meaningful. I must admit I was a bit astonished by your earlier comments on the Monarchy. As I recall you said it was relatively forward compared to the PS Audio.

The tube pre/Monarchy combo should be very fine, though. I like my Sonic Frontiers LINE 1 with the Monachys, albeit the SF is somewhat renouned for its neutral, S/S-like sound.