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  1. #1
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    Need quick advice!!!!

    Hi guys,

    A Pawn Shop near my home is selling me a Krell KAV-250 A for $900.00. They also have the Definitive Tech BP- 7002 for $700.00 (pair) Both are in mint condition. I don't need more speakers but the Krell has been in my head all day. What do you think???


    Thanks.
    Last edited by dvjorge; 01-18-2010 at 08:51 PM.

  2. #2
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    I think it seems like a very good deal since I have seen prices for this unit used online for above 1500 bucks at the minimum and the reviews of this unit are favorable. I am not sure what speakers you are using but Krell has its fans and has people that don't think so much of them. I myself really like them from the models that I have heard and I think for this price you could be very happy with this unit. there are quite a few people on here that like krell and you as well might be one too.

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    My main speakers are Paradigm Studio 100 V2. I love them but I don't have power amplifier for them. I run them with an old Yamaha RXV-800 A/V receiver. I am going to offer the guy $700 cash for the Krell still a lot of money for me now. I couldn't move the Krell from the floor. It is 140 pounds.

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    First of all you had better snag that amp, it will be a keeper. You'll know why when you experience the power and precision. Are you sure it's a kav? I didn't think the stereo amp was that heavy. I wonder if it's a ksa or the 5x250 kav.

    Yeah the kav is about 50 lbs. Either you need to work out or that amp is even a better find than you thought http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

    Looks like might be ksa250, if it is you better be at the door when that place opens. 250x2 of Krell in class A, don't even give it a second thought, just get it. http://www.stereophile.com/solidpowe...ll/index3.html

    What town are you in? Man, i'd love to get my hands on that. You can't even imagine what a beast that is.

  5. #5
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    I would listen to Mr Peabody!!!!!!!
    Were I to run across a deal like that. My post would be about the fantastic score I just made.
    The best price I've ever seen far a Krell 250WPC amp (KSA-250) was around $2000.
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    Mr Peabody is right about the weight. The KAV 250 was @ 50 pounds, what you may have seen is the KSA 250. It is VERY large and heavy with heat sinks on both sides. If that's the unit, you should have already picked it up before reading this!

    Good Luck!

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    My mistake the amp is 43 pounds. KAV 250 A.

  8. #8
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    I think either of the Krells mentioned above would make your studio 100's sound awesome but the KSA would be that much better. I know either of them would make your yamaha receivers power amp section sound like a boom box amp in comparison as far as sound quality and overall dynamics. Studio 100's need a lot of power to get the most of them and a Krell power amp would do just that. If I were you I would camp out at the front door of the pawn shop and be there when the guy shows up for business and then buy the unit as quickly as possible then go have yourself a healthy breakfast because you are going to be in for a life changing event when you hook that thing up to your Paradigms.

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    Even the kav-250a is well worth $900.00. It was in production for many years, not sure what retail was when discontinued but it had to be over $3k. Look at www.audiogon.com you won't see them that cheap. We're talking 250 watts into 8 ohms and 500 into 4 ohms. I didn't realize it but I thought browsing the owner manual (see link in prior post) the 250a could be bridged to 1,000.00. The kav-250a was Krell's base model separate amp but Krell's base starts where most leave off. It may be more than you were looking to spend but this piece you can keep. It would take quite a lay out of expense to better it.

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    Guys, I know you are right but things show up when you aren't prepared for that. Anyway, according to the guy at the pawn, the amp has been there for more than 3 months. It may be there 3 more months or 3 more days. Who knows??? He told me the owner is going to drop the price 20% more next month if it is still there.

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    I guess most pawn shop clients aren't your typical Krell user. Will the pawn shop forward your offer? That would be a great amp for you to get your hands on.

  12. #12
    RGA
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    Pawn shops typically go with blue book. You would be surprised at what stuff is actually worth. On another board someone was attacking me for discrediting McIntosh when I said that Soundhounds in Victoria sold a perfect condition MA 7000 for $2,000. It retails in the $8800.00 range and is a current model. Someone even phoned Soundhounds to confirm.

    No "good deal" is a deal if you don't like the sound of the amp. I can think of piles of amps for $900 used that I would buy over the Krell which to me make pretty unlistenable sterile sounding gear. The plus side is that if you buy it and you don't like it you can always probably sell it for what you bought or in many cases more than you paid because someone will overpay for "name" gear - or even "Naim" gear.

    Start looking around at amps you can buy used for $900 and frankly I think you can do better. Check out companies like Rogue Audio and Mystere. And for the best sounding SS I have ever heard is from a company called Technical Brain. But you are not getting one used for $900 or probably maybe used for $29,000??

    For $900 and considerably less you can also find some decent separates or just plain more musical integrated amp for $300 - $400. My dealer had a Sugden integrated for $350, an ARC for $350, even Arcam's Delta 290P power amp for $250 and add a better dedicated preamp you could probably get further on $900 than brittle highly overrated SS sound - and as a bonus you may find something that won't catch fire.

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    RGA, you are predjudice against Krell and talking out of your butt. The OP has Studio
    100's and the Krell would be excellent. Your Sugden or the Arcam would go up in flames wile the Krell was just smiling. Regardless of your tube biases, pardon the pun, Krell is one of the best and strongest amps in the world. I've had Krell for years, it's been totally reliable and not a bit fatiguing. Frankly, it is your Krell bashing that can't allow me to respect your reviews or opinions on gear. I think you like music to sound like warm mush and wouldn't know good sound if you did hear it. I like and own Krell, John Michael owns it and likes Krell,despite your warnings. Florian uses it on his Apogees because they have the power to drive them and he uses them on the tweeters as well. If they were "brittle" or harsh I don't think one would put them on tweeters. I don't see how any one in good conscience could recommend a 100 Arcam amp which is more like 50 watts into 8 ohms over a Krell, any Krell. And, I happen to like Arcam, have owned Arcam and recommend them for the right job and person. There's no guarantee this person will like Krell but to slander it and recommend amps that can't do the job is irresponsible. I personally have something different in my main system but I still respect Krell for what they can do. I have yet to hear an amp to match Krell's power and quickness in transient response. And, save it, because I don't believe for a minute your Audio Note amp can.

    To bring up "going up in flames" was immature of you. However, it brings up a good point. You could have been honest about it. First of all the amps on the recall were over ten years old and it was a small number of amps that had a problem which were used by idiots. Idiots because the amps must have been misused to create the problem. Krell should be commended for even doing the recall. My amp was on the list. When I think of how hard I drove my amp I can't imagine what was done to those that had a problem. All the fix was is replacing a couple fuses. Shame on Krell for not fully computing the idiot factor.

    The kav-250a was on the list as well. If the owner has not taken Krell up on the recall, then if you buy it send Krell the serial number, if it's on the list they will pay you $150.00 for replacing the fuses. This would make the amp even a better buy. They send you the fuses with a certificate to sign and send back. Once they receive it they will send you a check. It does take several weeks to receive but it may be quicker since the initial rush is over. Also, before buying hook it up to make sure all is well.

  14. #14
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    There again Mr. Peabody beat me to it and explained it better than I could anyway probably. But yes I agree with Mr. Peabody and the fact that he owns some tube gear but he is not so damn partial that he downs every piece of SS equipment he comes across. I also agree that either of the Krell amps will do well with the studio 100's. I have heard Krell on Paradigm reference series speakers before and it was a good thing.

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  15. #15
    RGA
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    I am not partial to Krell because on every system I have heard it on the match has been a poor one. Unlike you I have auditioned both SET and Krell - and if you think Krell is good on transients you need to get out there more. I tend to like tubes more because tubes generally sound a helluva lot better than comparable SS amps (and judging by most companies who were showing loudspeakers they tend to agree). That said there are some fine SS amplifiers - my belief is that you can get better or "as good" SS than Krell for considerably less money - better a tube preamp and SS power amp for under $900 is easily attained. The Studio 100 and most loudspeakers are easily driven with 30-60 watts if the power supply is a good one. Some of the loudest, fastest, tightest, and "best" rooms at CES were tube driven. One panel maker babbling on about his 1000 watt power amp and why you need it to play loud was laughable. I felt like saying umm - maybe you should close your door for 20 minutes walk to the end of the hall and listen to what a two way box and 20 watt 211 based amplifier is doing before you start telling people you need 1000 watts to have shouty non cohesive sound that can't play as loud. Maybe to make his inefficient speaker play remotely decently he needed kilowatt amps but...

    One speaker was using Heed Amplifiers which are SS 35 watts driving a pair of two way Trenner and Friedl RA Box speakers and the sound pressure and bass rivaled and frankly beat the ever loving crap out of virtually everything at CES with their bazillian watt amplifiers. And it sounded quite excellent. Granted the T&F speakers were not cheap - don't know about Heed's front end prices.

    The point is that in my opinion very similar sound can be had used for considerably less money - and if one actually auditions stuff outside a small window of gear they will come across it. Single ended amplifiers typically live in the transient and decay worlds - their biggest downfall is lack of power for tough to drive loudspeakers - but then fortunately most of the best loudspeakers tend not to be very tough to drive and if you're in the camp that it must be a tough to drive speaker there are still terrific high power tube amps and SS amps on the market. Technical Brain is one such SS amp that truly possesses un-amplifier sound and was getting instrumentation eerily correct.

    As for the fire comment - well it had to be noted that "by the way if you buy this amp you may have to go through the hassle of the recall." Yes it's good that Krell adressed the problem and took action - but then shouldn't they? Blaming the owner for using the amplifier seems odd. How did they abuse it - by turning it on and playing hard to drive speakers really loud - isn't that why people buy Krell - because it's "supposed" to play hard to drive speakers real loud?

  16. #16
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    I would listen to Mr Peabody!!!!!!!
    Were I to run across a deal like that. My post would be about the fantastic score I just made.
    The best price I've ever seen far a Krell 250WPC amp (KSA-250) was around $2000.
    Note that you are not talking about the same amplifier. There is indeed a KAV-250 and it is not the same beast as the KSA-250. KAV is their entry product line. First of all, it weighs only 50 lbs, not 125 like the KSA flavor. The heat sinks are far smaller and they are internal to the amp, not hanging out the sides like the KSA. There are pictures of both on Agon (actually, the KAV is the similar three channel model). The KAV is also subject to the fuse recall (use 8a instead of 12a) and perhaps the owner could get the $100 rebate offered by Krell.

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    E-stat, I think you missed some posts, start from the beginning. No one said the kav and ksa were the same, in fact, we were pointing out the difference. The kav is still a deal at $900.00. I'd take it.

    RGA, again you are talking nonsense. I helped a guy with 100's who was vertically biamping with two NAd 50x2 amps. According to you this would have been adequate. For low level it was but once we needed more volume they quickly ran out of steam. Even at low level they lacked bottom end. Once I put my former Adcom gfa-5500, 200x2, under the bass and bridged his amps one on each top end then we had some volume. We quit before the amps ran out of steam. Of course, that was collectively about 600 watts. The kav-250a does 500 into 4 ohms and is a much better amp than the 5500.

    The majority of loudspeakers are inefficient. All the efficient speakers I've heard have all been lacking in the bottom end. You have a big head because you go around and get this stuff to review yet have a very narrow mind and selective hearing.

  18. #18
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    E-stat, I think you missed some posts, start from the beginning. No one said the kav and ksa were the same, in fact, we were pointing out the difference. The kav is still a deal at $900.00.
    Sorry. I responded to Joe's comments. He, too was confused.

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  19. #19
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    E-stat, I think you missed some posts, start from the beginning. No one said the kav and ksa were the same, in fact, we were pointing out the difference. The kav is still a deal at $900.00. I'd take it.

    RGA, again you are talking nonsense. I helped a guy with 100's who was vertically biamping with two NAd 50x2 amps. According to you this would have been adequate. For low level it was but once we needed more volume they quickly ran out of steam. Even at low level they lacked bottom end. Once I put my former Adcom gfa-5500, 200x2, under the bass and bridged his amps one on each top end then we had some volume. We quit before the amps ran out of steam. Of course, that was collectively about 600 watts. The kav-250a does 500 into 4 ohms and is a much better amp than the 5500.

    The majority of loudspeakers are inefficient. All the efficient speakers I've heard have all been lacking in the bottom end. You have a big head because you go around and get this stuff to review yet have a very narrow mind and selective hearing.
    So you point to NAD as the basis of comparison?

    The fact is really simple to understand. To get a 3db increase in a loudspeaker you need twice the power - 50 watts - then you need 100watts. To get a "doubling" of the "perceived" volume level you need 10 times the power (and ONLY if the speaker is capable of handling that power - in which case 500 watts).

    That can be done on the speaker end by buying High efficient speakers. And if you choose wisely you don't give up the bass. I wasn't really talking about playing at supreme volume levels but even here buying carefully can get you supreme volume levels and better sound and you don't need more than 50 watts to do it - often you don't need more than 5.

    The Sugden A48b had no trouble driving the Studio 100s to very loud levels with deep relatively tuneful bass - such as the 100's are capable of anyway. Yes I agree to get higher volume levels a big power amp would obviously desirable but more power usually means more negative feedback and worse sound. I'll sacrifice ultimate volume level for better quality anyday - and with a better loudspeaker maker than paradigm - one doesn't have to sacrifice volume either.

    I'm not slagging high power SS - it can be done well so can low power SS - I just think one can get better sound for less money than what Krell has to offer. But then I'm not a fan of the Studio 100 either - I would avoid both.

    I heard systems using bigger cabinets and 1000 watt amplifiers and the audiofederation nailed the point. And there were others using low power like Trenner and Friedl that would blow you into the next room. Two way box with low power. http://spintricity.com/64/6794/jan-2...0---audio-note (and more to the point unlike the big Wilson and Focal - this room used a 20 watt amp not a kilowatt amp needed to get the Wilson and Focals from doing anything.

    Interestingly even Dynaudio your favorite loudspeaker maker was using Octave TUBE hybrid gear and if you have the opportunity you may want to look into them as an upgrade to Krell.

    The Krell will drive the speakers it is just that one is, IMO, paying a premium for the big marketing and the name, over results. Still he can probably sell it for what he pays for it if he likes it so it's not a terrible gamble. I'd just look at something for sound quality rather than how it slams at ridiculous levels.

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    Dynaudio will be distributing Octave that's why they were using them. I'm looking forward to hearing Octave they look good. They also are expensive. My main system is what is in my signature. Krell has been relegated to my second system or an occasional rotation back.

  21. #21
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    RGA I know you look down on Paradigm speakers but I believe that they are very good concidering the price class of their products. And I believe plenty of people on this site would agree with me since there are a lot of people that own them or have owned them on this price. I am not saying that they are the ultimate and I even modified mine to make them way better than stock but they always seem to rate well within their price class. I just think there are some people out there that are very closed minded and think that what their opinion of good audio should be everyone's and with every persons hearing being different and perception of what they think sounds good that is not the case. And that is why there are a lot of audio designers and brands in the high end world because there are so many people that have different views of audio perfection. If we are to keep this hobby alive for the next few generations to enjoy then close mindedness is not needed or wanted.

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    The thing is if SET amps and high efficient horn speakers are the way to go you'd think more audio shops would carry these types of set ups. There must be a reason they do not. Feel free to draw your own conclusion. E-stat travels a lot he may know where some are but I've yet to wander into one who does in my journeys. Cary is probably the best known, maybe I'll see where the closest dealer is for fun.

  23. #23
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    In my opinion there are people out there that have a different view of what sound reproduction should be like and these products interest them. I personally have studied speaker designs and know the strengths and weaknesses of horn speakers and I myself have not heard a pair that I liked. And most recording studios do not use speakers of this type for their mastering of the recording and I would think if these units were that damn good then you would see them used more professionally in the studio environment. I know horns are efficient by designs and able to be powered by amps with small output power but there are also weaknesses to horns that I have a problem looking past. and I personally like a fair amount of power in my systems for dynamics and balance and personally think speakers with better crossovers and better drivers need a little more power than the standard for the best results.

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  24. #24
    RGA
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    There are several arguments here regarding what is popular and what is good. They're not the same and please think it through before you draw conclusions - McDonalds and Burger King make a great formula hamburger and they sell to the masses because they're cheap and they're consistent - but Gordon Ramsey will make you a much better hamburger - and it will cost him more to make it and cost you more to buy it. It may not have all the features of guys in clown suits and bright colours and glossy packaging but it will be a better hamburger. It won't sell the masses in great numbers because of the price and because of the time factor and the lack of skill level around the country to make them.

    It is not difficult to see the reasons that SET and High Efficiency speakers (which are not necessarily horns by the way) are not popular with the masses - they require WORK from their owners and they tend to be sold at prices that are far higher than the mainstream will pay. A lack of features, lack or remotes most often, and smaller production numbers limit the appeal - there is far more money in sand amps which costs a fraction to build use off the shelf parts, and can be slapped together on an assembly line with piles of features for a low price. The last thing most dealers want to deal with is a customer coming back needing a tube or teaching them to bias amplifiers.

    From a studio perspective several of the best studios still use tube amplifiers - Chesky Records. But there is a financial consideration to use SS and that is downtime - tubes blow and they require replacement - sonics will take a back seat every time to money in most average recording studios - and since so very many people whine and complain that "most recordings suck" maybe they should stop to think that this is because of the lousy solid state gear and inept speakers being used in most of these recording studios.

    Audio Shops are interested in selling products - very few carry the best because it's the best - they carry what will line their pockets with cold hard green. Bigger ones may carry a line they really like despite a lack of sales but not many.

    Single Ended low powered amps don't really require horns or even particularly high sensitivity - they require relatively flat loads - and that can be done with 90-93db speakers.

    Cary makes some nice sounding amps - they're not my first choice to "represent" SETs - there is more diversity in the sound of SETs than from Solid State makers.

  25. #25
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    I was not trying to say that all high efficiency speakers are of the horn variety because there a wide variety of full range driver speakers among other designs that are efficient but to make a claim that studios suffer audio wise because they use solid state amps instead of tubes is a bold statement mostly for the fact that there are quite a few solid state amps out there that are as good as tube amps and it is an argument that has not been won in either direction since solid state electronics came into the audio world many years ago. I do know that you are a reviewer and get to see a lot of more gear than I do but to be close minded in saying that the only amps or preamps to go with are tube to me is a statement I have heard before many times and while I don't particularly have higher end equipment right now I have been around quite a bit of high end stuff and there are plenty of high end solid state products out there that are very good. I do not bias myself on a particular design or only tube or solid state just because they are what they are. I am open minded and just let my ears do the work and that lets me know how good it is. I am a musician also as a hobby and have worked with several different kinds of gear in that area as well and know that the audio fix isn't always just go tube and you will be good. I am not trying to start an argument that never ends here I am just saying that there are good products in both categories and Mr. peabody like a lot of audiophiles have more than one system in his home and uses both solid state and tube electronics and he sees the good in both just like I do. I have heard good from both and I tend to keep my mind more open to either format being a good way to go in different situations. I have a friend that has a studio and he has used tube gear for a long time and he finally went to solid state not only for its reliability but because he found solid state gear that he prefers to tube gear that he has ran for years and he has used several different brands of amps. And I have heard his studio setup several times and i agree that his solid state gear is very impressive and gives the sound that he needs to bring out the sound that he needs to make good studio recordings. I think compression and other elements have made studio recordings sound bad as of recent more than there choice of tube or solid state.

    Marantz SR5008(HT)
    Nu Force P8 Preamp (2 channel)
    Pass Labs X150.5(2 channel)
    Adcom 545 mk2 power amp(rear channel amp)
    Spatial Audio M3 Turbo S Mains Speakers
    Dayton 8" HO custom sealed subwoofer(2 channel)
    Yamaha NS-c444 center channel
    Emotiva ERD-1 surround speakers
    JBL e250p subwoofer highly modified
    Samsung 46" LED TV
    OPPO BDP-83 blue ray/multi format player
    ps-audio NuWave dac (2 channel)
    Dell I660 music server running fidelizer windows 8 audio optimizer
    PS Audio Quintet power center



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