Need Illumination on Amplification

Dear Friends,
Need your advice / help on my current audio issue:
I am in the midst of getting some amplification system.
Main concerns are:

·Budget
·Sonic Performance
·Aesthetic & Convenience

I already have a pair of B&W CDM 1NT, MIT InWall Speaker cables (may be upgraded later on), Vampire (old one, forgot the type) interconnect, and Siltech Paris Interconnect.

Type of music: Various, from Classical to Jazz to Big Band, to Rock, R&B, Vocal (Ana Karam, Sara K, Vienna Boys Choir, etc.).

I was thinking of going tube, since they are kinder to speakers (according to some), but then those tube amplifiers with adequate wattage seems to be very expensive, even used ones. Not to mention:

Price of the replacement tubes itself, and ...
Voltage sensitivity, which may cause shorter tube life & Bias problem (depending on model & type?).
Also, when playing something upbeat (the likes of Candy Dulfer, Sheila E), it seems they lack the energy I am looking for

Thus, the current options are:
1.NEW Creek 5350SE (US$ 890)
2.NEW Roksan Kandy (US$ 780)
3.USED NAD SilverLine S200 power amp (US$ 780) + DIY Passive Preamp/ Tube Buffer

Your enlightenment is appreciated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paneristi

I was thinking of going tube, since they are kinder to speakers (according to some), but then those tube amplifiers with adequate wattage seems to be very expensive, even used ones. Not to mention:

Price of the replacement tubes itself, and ...
Voltage sensitivity, which may cause shorter tube life & Bias problem (depending on model & type?).

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Kinder to speakers, huh? I 'spose tube amps tuck the speakers into bed and read them a story after a long day of playing Metallica?

On a more serious note, decent tube amps have really come down in price in the last few years and buyers have several excellent options from brands such as Jolida, TAD, ASL, and PrimaLuna to name but a few. Whether or not they provide enough oomph is dictated by how loud you like it, your speakers, and room acoustics. Overall however, you are correct that tubes can be fairly finicky and the price scales upward rapidly as you add wattage.

I have 1NT's and while they are pretty efficient, they do present a fairly tough load and are quite sensitive to what you drive them with. I demo'd numerous ss amps (tubes weren't considered) and found the PS Audio HCA2 to fit the bill quite nicely. Here is a review. This is neither a ss nor tube but instead a hybrid Class A switching amp. The short story is that it melds with the CDM NT series very nicely providing astonishing depth and slam to the bass coupled with a liquid smooth midrange and very spacious, airy treble. In other words, it provides the best of ss and tubes. Geoffcin (moderator here) also uses one to drive his Maggies and seems to like it. You can find used ones at audiogon.com like this one all the time. It could be what you are looking for.

Hope this helps.

Unfortunately, I am not living in the US where one can find PSA easily :(

It seems strange to me that NAD SilverLine S200 has not been reviewed by any credible magazine (e.g. Stereophile). To me, Stereophile Recommended Components (SRC) matters a lot as I use it as the first-stage ‘filter’ in choosing components. Of course, there are many decent product not being reviewed by Stereophile, TAS, but are excellent products. And my ears should be the final judge

BTW, Tops, have you had any experience with MITerminator 2 speaker cables with B&W CDM 1NT?

Kinder to speakers … a friend of mine blew 2 of his SS amps driving Quad ELS 57. Switching to Audio Innovation tube power amp, he didn’t experience any such thing. What he told me basically is that, when clipping, SS amps can be disastrous. Wrecking either the amp itself or the speakers’ drivers. As with Tube, the worst that can happen is the music becomes unmusical, sounds like AM Radio. Any comment about this?

Thx

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paneristi

Unfortunately, I am not living in the US where one can find PSA easily :(

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If you can type either audiogon.com or audioadvisor.com into your address bar, you can find PSA easily. The amp is only 35 lbs (remember switching amps aren't burdened with weighty heat sinks) so if you can get one from audioadvisor, they have a 30 day return policy and your return shipping will be pretty cheap, although I doubt you'd use the option. The only hurdle could be that the HCA2 has been supplanted with Paul's new GCA series so audioadvisor may be out of stock. Check their website, you never know.

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BTW, Tops, have you had any experience with MITerminator 2 speaker cables with B&W CDM 1NT?

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Sorry, no. I run Marshall cables myself, although I do respect MIT. To be honest, while I am a proponent of quality wires, I'm not a big believer in esoteric, they-cost-more-than-the-flippin'-amplifier wires. I'm not condemning anybody that is so if you want to flip a ton of dead presidents at your interconnects and speaker cables, go have a ball! It's just not my thing...

Quote:

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Kinder to speakers … a friend of mine blew 2 of his SS amps driving Quad ELS 57. Switching to Audio Innovation tube power amp, he didn’t experience any such thing. What he told me basically is that, when clipping, SS amps can be disastrous. Wrecking either the amp itself or the speakers’ drivers. As with Tube, the worst that can happen is the music becomes unmusical, sounds like AM Radio. Any comment about this? Thx

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The infamous Quad ESL's, huh? No wonder he blew his amps. Those 'stats are reknown for their ability devour decent amps, particularly with their rather nasty 1ohm loads.

I'm not an engineer so I can't say whether or not the distortion from an overdriven tube amp is less likely to harm a speaker versus clipping from an overdriven ss amp. Neither is good, I can assure you. There are a couple of engineers on this board so maybe they'll chime in. The bottom line though is that your friend needs to buy the right equipment, whether tube or ss, to drive those Quads. If he's melting amps or driving his tubes to severe distortion, he needs to open his wallet and buy a real amp. Shoot, you should introduce him to the HCA2 as it is load invariant and will drive those ESL's all day without so much as getting more than warm to the touch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by topspeed

If you can type either audiogon.com or audioadvisor.com into your address bar, you can find PSA easily. The amp is only 35 lbs (remember switching amps aren't burdened with weighty heat sinks) so if you can get one from audioadvisor, they have a 30 day return policy and your return shipping will be pretty cheap, although I doubt you'd use the option. The only hurdle could be that the HCA2 has been supplanted with Paul's new GCA series so audioadvisor may be out of stock. Check their website, you never know.

Sorry, no. I run Marshall cables myself, although I do respect MIT. To be honest, while I am a proponent of quality wires, I'm not a big believer in esoteric, they-cost-more-than-the-flippin'-amplifier wires. I'm not condemning anybody that is so if you want to flip a ton of dead presidents at your interconnects and speaker cables, go have a ball! It's just not my thing...

The infamous Quad ESL's, huh? No wonder he blew his amps. Those 'stats are reknown for their ability devour decent amps, particularly with their rather nasty 1ohm loads.

I'm not an engineer so I can't say whether or not the distortion from an overdriven tube amp is less likely to harm a speaker versus clipping from an overdriven ss amp. Neither is good, I can assure you. There are a couple of engineers on this board so maybe they'll chime in. The bottom line though is that your friend needs to buy the right equipment, whether tube or ss, to drive those Quads. If he's melting amps or driving his tubes to severe distortion, he needs to open his wallet and buy a real amp. Shoot, you should introduce him to the HCA2 as it is load invariant and will drive those ESL's all day without so much as getting more than warm to the touch.

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PS Audio amps seem to have a love affair with electrostatic and hybrid speakers, the best I ever heard the ESL63 sound was when driven by a PS IIC+ (70watts/channel). <p> Tube amps display a different clipping characteristic than SS amps. A tube clips by rounding off the audio signal, the so-called "soft clipping." SS amps clip by chopping off the tops of the audio wave forms, "hard clipping" generating lots of high-order harmonics that tendto light off tweeters and midrange drivers.

Re PSA from Audiogon / AudioAdvisor, it is the local tax regulation (& those SOB tax officers) that I can’t count on. I might end up spending the same amount of another USED PSA HCA for the tax alone. Local PSA dealer charges MSRP for the HCA2, regardless it has been discontinued. Not to mention that most dealers will not welcome products purchased overseas (or even from another dealer). So, you see, the hassle worth ruining sonic performance alone (considering your mood & wallet)

Due to the reason above, I have to go with the more reliable option.

Yes, I have heard about the bad side of ESL57, but didn’t expect it to be that bad, that it will melt down the amp. But vocal clarity coming from those speakers is so real. However they are far less satisfying when playing GRP-like of music.

Wow. I had no idea they made it so difficult to purchase imported products overseas. That's too bad.

The Quad's are famous for a number of things with midrange clarity (vocals) and transparency being the cornerstone to their legend. Their brutal load ratings are a close second, however. You have to have a serious amp that is stable into the loads the Quad's will present. Finally, I agree wholeheartedly that the ESL's aren't good for cranking it to "11"; they rock about as hard as Liberace.

Of the three integrateds you've listed, I'd stick with either the Creek or NAD. I've heard of some quality issues with Roksan and you may want to investigate that further if it ends up sounding the best. I'd also consider Arcam and Rotel. The bottom line is you're going to need to hook them up to your speakers and simply hear which creates the most synergistic match with the 1NT's. The good news is that the speakers are very revealing so you'll know when you've got the right combination.

Good luck in your search.