• 12-25-2003, 10:13 PM
    Gimes
    Knowledgable enthusisasts, what should I be using??
    As my signature implies, I am a casual listener, but only because I refuse to consider myself an enthusiast due my limited experience in HEARING what better equipment can offer. I have been subjected to all the receiver-driven sound one can imagine, and have always been intrigued with what seperates could provide. Whenever my intrigue resurfaces every 3 months or so, I have to force it back down by reminding myself that any additional expenses than what I've already incurred could further prolong my college experience and leave an even larger hole in my wallet. Since that part of my life is starting to give way to better times, it's my intention to start following my ever-present intrigue that is audiophilism. Although any real change is at least a year off, I want to start researching now, so that when/if I do make a change, its not a spontaneous purchase that I regret right after the return policy runs up. Please keep in mind, I have a lot to learn.

    Currently, I own nothing terribly special or exciting, but not exactly shoddy at all. A system that impresses most that listen, but often leaves me feeling that there is something missing:

    Pioneer VSX-D710S receiver
    Pioneer DV-C503 changer
    Front: Klipsch RF-5 black
    Center: Klipsch RC-3 black
    Rear: Klipsch RB -5II black
    Sub: currently looking
    monster cable throughout
    xbox

    I went with Klipsch because i fell in love with their sound back in the day. I listen to a lot of rock, alternative, classics, etc, perfect for Klipsch sound/performance. I can't really say that anything sounds 'bad' on these guys, I love em. Before that, had a set of JBL floorstanding speakers that gave me everything I could ask for at the time, except for that 'blow-me-away' rush that I get everytime I get passed 12 oclock now. To be honest, I've never heard what seperates can do, I've never heard Klipsch or comparable speakers on seperates, nor do I even know if seperates are necessary for my situation. (my reason for posting this thread)

    I already know that Klipsch have a reputation for being easily driven, that a receiver can get the most out of them. But again, I'm still not satisfied. None of my friends share my interest in sound, which is exactly why I'm consulting this board for some advice. For opinions that I'd never otherwise hear.

    To get to the point, I'd like as many opinions as possible. What should I be using to drive my system? Is what I have satisfactory? If I were to upgrade to seperates, would I get better sound/clarity/feel, or would I need to upgrade speakers as well to hear a difference?

    Brands I've looked at so far:
    Marantz, Odyssey(Klaus), some Yamaha, even Pioneer Elite

    To those that respond, it is much appreciated, even if its only to tell me not to waste my time. Maybe that's exactly what I need to hear. Sorry if my questions are basic stuff, but I've got to start somewhere.
  • 12-26-2003, 12:30 AM
    mtrycraft
    Currently, I own nothing terribly special or exciting, but not exactly shoddy at all. A system that impresses most that listen, but often leaves me feeling that there is something missing:

    If you have that missing feeling, stand by, you need an endless supply of $$$ as you may never be satisfied.


    I went with Klipsch because i fell in love with their sound back in the day. I listen to a lot of rock, alternative, classics, etc, perfect for Klipsch sound/performance. I can't really say that anything sounds 'bad' on these guys, I love em.

    Good. Then there is no need to change speakers. Speakers are the greates effect on what you hear.


    Before that, had a set of JBL floorstanding speakers that gave me everything I could ask for at the time, except for that 'blow-me-away' rush that I get everytime I get passed 12 oclock now.

    ??? 12 o'clock on the volume control?



    To be honest, I've never heard what seperates can do, I've never heard Klipsch or comparable speakers on seperates, nor do I even know if seperates are necessary for my situation. (my reason for posting this thread)


    From what I gather from your post, separates will not help you. They may be more flexible.

    But again, I'm still not satisfied. None of my friends share my interest in sound, which is exactly why I'm consulting this board for some advice. For opinions that I'd never otherwise hear.

    Separates are over hyped.

    What should I be using to drive my system? Is what I have satisfactory? If I were to upgrade to seperates, would I get better sound/clarity/feel, or would I need to upgrade speakers as well to hear a difference?

    Expensive sugar pills separates.



    To those that respond, it is much appreciated, even if its only to tell me not to waste my time. Maybe that's exactly what I need to hear.

    You got it :)
  • 12-26-2003, 09:18 AM
    Gimes
    Point Taken
    Point taken, but do me a favor, pretend for a moment that I'm not a whole lot different from just about every person that visits this site. How many rigs have you seen that the owner describes as being a work in progress? Its just like any other hobby I would guess. A coin collector doesn't stop collecting coins after he's got an even 100. A card collector doesn't stop collectings cards when he finally finds that Mickey Mantle autographed rookie card at some underground card shop buried in a stack of commons, although it'd be nice. :)

    What I'm saying this time, is my system has room to grow. Let me phrase my question a little differently, if you were me, where would you go from here?

    Again, thanks to those that reply!
  • 12-26-2003, 09:53 AM
    skeptic
    You should be using your brains
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gimes
    Although any real change is at least a year off, I want to start researching now,

    Please keep in mind, I have a lot to learn.

    Before that, had a set of JBL floorstanding speakers that gave me everything I could ask for at the time, except for that 'blow-me-away' rush that I get everytime I get passed 12 oclock now.

    To those that respond, it is much appreciated, even if its only to tell me not to waste my time. Maybe that's exactly what I need to hear. Sorry if my questions are basic stuff, but I've got to start somewhere.

    At least you understand you are in no financial position to buy anything right now. I have mentioned the danger here before of what I call incrementalism, a small change up which leads to dissatisfaction and then another small change up and then another and another, each time costing time and money in an endless cycle of searching and disappointment. Don't be too ready to part with your money until you find something you want badly that is far better than what you now have. Go for the gold.

    Once you have a job and are on your way to financial independence, open a bank account and set aside a certain amount of money from each paycheck towards buying these separates. Even if it's only $10 or $20 a week, in a year or two you should have $1000 to $2000 which will get you some nice equipment in the used market. If you must have new equipment, be ready to put more money away or wait longer.

    You can research an endless array of possibilities like a dog chasing its tail. There are those here and elsewhere who would tell you that the only thing to own is vacuum tube electronics. Others will tell you it has to be class A SET. Others will advice you to buy this brand or that brand of amplifier or preamplifier. No one of them can know what is right for you. You will have to decide for yourself. But be aware that what sounds great in one setup may not sound so hot in another and that the differences between the performance of well made amplifiers and preamplifiers can be fairly subtle even to well trained listeners.

    Your other option is to wait until you get married or at least have a serious relationship with a woman. She will tell you what to get. Her hearing and probably her judgement will be better than yours and you can start getting accostomed to taking orders and rationalizing that it was your idea all along.
  • 12-26-2003, 12:03 PM
    thepogue
    go get that sub!!
    if your thinking aobut getting a sub...go for it...that will really change your sound and whole set-up...BTW how much do you want to spend on a sub?...thow me a number...I'll give ya what i think...Good Luck!!
  • 12-26-2003, 12:14 PM
    Geoffcin
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gimes
    I have been subjected to all the receiver-driven sound one can imagine, and have always been intrigued with what seperates could provide. Whenever my intrigue resurfaces every 3 months or so, I have to force it back down by reminding myself that any additional expenses than what I've already incurred could further prolong my college experience and leave an even larger hole in my wallet. Since that part of my life is starting to give way to better times, it's my intention to start following my ever-present intrigue that is audiophilism. Although any real change is at least a year off, I want to start researching now, so that when/if I do make a change, its not a spontaneous purchase that I regret right after the return policy runs up. Please keep in mind, I have a lot to learn.

    Currently, I own nothing terribly special or exciting, but not exactly shoddy at all. A system that impresses most that listen, but often leaves me feeling that there is something missing:

    Pioneer VSX-D710S receiver
    Pioneer DV-C503 changer
    Front: Klipsch RF-5 black
    Center: Klipsch RC-3 black
    Rear: Klipsch RB -5II black
    Sub: currently looking
    monster cable throughout
    xbox

    I went with Klipsch because i fell in love with their sound back in the day. I listen to a lot of rock, alternative, classics, etc, perfect for Klipsch sound/performance. I can't really say that anything sounds 'bad' on these guys, I love em. Before that, had a set of JBL floorstanding speakers that gave me everything I could ask for at the time, except for that 'blow-me-away' rush that I get everytime I get passed 12 oclock now. To be honest, I've never heard what seperates can do, I've never heard Klipsch or comparable speakers on seperates, nor do I even know if seperates are necessary for my situation. (my reason for posting this thread)

    I already know that Klipsch have a reputation for being easily driven, that a receiver can get the most out of them. But again, I'm still not satisfied. None of my friends share my interest in sound, which is exactly why I'm consulting this board for some advice. For opinions that I'd never otherwise hear.

    To get to the point, I'd like as many opinions as possible. What should I be using to drive my system? Is what I have satisfactory? If I were to upgrade to seperates, would I get better sound/clarity/feel, or would I need to upgrade speakers as well to hear a difference?

    Brands I've looked at so far:
    Marantz, Odyssey(Klaus), some Yamaha, even Pioneer Elite

    To those that respond, it is much appreciated, even if its only to tell me not to waste my time. Maybe that's exactly what I need to hear. Sorry if my questions are basic stuff, but I've got to start somewhere.

    Welcome to the club of; "I wonder how much better it gets"

    Despite what others might tell you, EVERYONE who's ever had a serious sound system wonders this.

    You've got pretty good HT system going now. I understand your system pretty well, as I also have a Pioneer VSX-811s in a similar setup in one of the bedrooms. I've even got my horn loaded EPI's hooked up to it, so the sound must be very similar. Heck, it even has an X-box attached like yours! That system ROCKS, and can play to pretty high levels with decent sound. That being said, it's what you would call "mid-fi" and can be improved markedly with not too much expenditure.

    OK, here's the best bang for your buck;

    1) A sub. Klipsch makes a decent sub. The Klipsch KSW12 subwoofer certainly will change your world quite effectively. It also would enable you to run the low bass into the sub, and take some of the burden off your receivers amp.

    2) Upgrade your reciever. The 711 is a good value reciever, but it doesn't have the balls of the Pioneer Elite in my main system even though they have the same power rating.

    3) If you have the itch, go for a quality USED amp and/or preamp. There's hundreds to choose from on AudiogoN. If you thought you got a rush with your speakers now, wait till you hook them up to a quality high powered amp!

    http://buy.audiogon.com/

    You can get a great used one at a fantastic discount. Another great thing about buying used, is that you can useually sell it for what you it for got it for if you ever want to upgrade

    The real thing to remember is don't sweat it. Audio is supposed to be FUN. If your system gives you a big grin every time you play it, then your on the right road, no matter what any other people might say.
  • 12-26-2003, 06:52 PM
    Gimes
    Exactly
    Geoffcin, we share more in common than just a game console and receiver. My name is the correct spelling as well. (Geoff)

    But thanks for your post. That was exactly the kind of information that I was looking for. Not necessarily the kind that sends me on a spending spree or anything, just some solid info as to what I 'COULD' do, if i were so inclined. So thank you, I think you got the gist of my original post a little better than the others. In any case, its all been great advice, especially the idea of putting away money every month in a savings account. This is something I've been doing for a long time already, and for the most part how I funded my current system. 5% of every paycheck, goes a LONG way. Especially when you're still somewhat young and sheltered from the 'real.'

    I agree that a sub is really what I should be looking at before I do anything else. I guess if I could find something below $500, I'd like to, but I don't want to settle, and potentially sacrifice quality. I made sure I got the sound I liked when I decided on speakers. As another poster above hinted at as well, if you're gonna do something, do it well. My father's mantra was passed on to me, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on the situation.

    OK, now for the questions. Some basic questions about amps that I think I know the answer to, but really just want to ask anyway. If I were looking to 'replace' my receiver with an amp, my options are either an integrated amp or a pre/power amp combo, correct?? Please set me straight if I'm wrong.

    Could I just buy a power amp, and essentially use that as a receiver along with my DVD player if my sole purposes were movies and music? (no tuner, phone, etc)

    One more thing, I have an amateur vinyl collection, mostly classic rock from the old man's stack. I'd like to figure in the turntable to this scenario as well, if that changes any of your suggestions or not?

    Let's see, pretty sure that's all for now. Fire away, believe it or not, I love just hearing suggestions of possible scenarios. That's why I've already spent so much time looking at all the individual systems on this site, I can't get enough. I'll see if I can't get mine up soon as well.
  • 12-26-2003, 08:34 PM
    Geoffcin
    Hi G. Thanks for mentioning me in that reply! It feels good to think that some of my posts can be of help.

    OK, let's see if I can be of further assistance.

    1) " If I were looking to 'replace' my receiver with an amp, my options are either an integrated amp or a pre/power amp combo, correct?? Please set me straight if I'm wrong. "

    Yes, your right, but read on for the fine print.

    2) "Could I just buy a power amp, and essentially use that as a receiver along with my DVD player if my sole purposes were movies and music? (no tuner, phone, etc)"

    Not unless your planning on spending some serious bucks. Most separate power amps are still 2 channel, and the ones that are multichannel command some serious green. You'd also need a multichannel preamp, and those ain't cheap either. The good news is that you can use your receiver as a preamp, and hook it directly to a power amp, but then your stuck with the quality of your receiver preamp, which is probably not up to the separate amp.

    Home theater is really hard to try to bring up to an "audiophile" level without dropping a lot of cash. I gave up on this idea, actually didn't even try. My audio and HT systems are more or less separate, only sharing the DVD player, as I use the DVD-Audio output in the audio system. (DVD-Audio really rocks!)

    3) "One more thing, I have an amateur vinyl collection, mostly classic rock from the old man's stack. I'd like to figure in the turntable to this scenario as well, if that changes any of your suggestions or not?"

    Yeah, sure does! I got a suggestion for you;

    Why not just setup a dedicated 2 channel audio system. Hook the L/R analog outputs of the CD/DVD player into it, and your TT. I know it sounds weird with everything coming out in 5.1 sound, but stereo is really where it's at for high quality audio, at least in my view. If you do this, you don't have to toss your speakers, receiver, or any other components.

    Skeptic posted a reply to someone on the old BB about how to CORRECTLY put a switch into the speaker cables so you can use both your HT, and your 2 channel set with the one set of front speakers without the possibility of crossing the amps. It was a cheap and effective solution, and would give you the ability to A/B between both the setups.

    Keep looking at those setups, as you'll get a lot of ideas from looking about what you eventually want to do. Right now I'm in the process of building an addition to my house that will have a dedicated room for both audio, and my home theater. As soon as I get the room sorted out I'll post a pic of it too.
  • 12-26-2003, 09:22 PM
    Gimes
    Geoffcin, can't thank you enough for taking the time to respond.

    "Not unless your planning on spending some serious bucks. Most separate power amps are still 2 channel, and the ones that are multichannel command some serious green. You'd also need a multichannel preamp, and those ain't cheap either. The good news is that you can use your receiver as a preamp, and hook it directly to a power amp, but then your stuck with the quality of your receiver preamp, which is probably not up to the separate amp."

    "Home theater is really hard to try to bring up to an "audiophile" level without dropping a lot of cash. I gave up on this idea, actually didn't even try. My audio and HT systems are more or less separate, only sharing the DVD player, as I use the DVD-Audio output in the audio system. (DVD-Audio really rocks!)"

    Ok, so the kind of power amp that you'd be referring to as far as the mega-bucks go would be the Krell's, Sunfire's, etc, correct? Not interested in getting that serious anyway. And using my receiver as the preamp would be pretty much a step sideways right? I'm assuming thats what you meant. Glad you could clear that up for me.

    I like the idea of separating my audio from my HT, but I'm a little confused. This is lack of knowledge on my part, but I was under the impression that my current receiver already did this. Example, I only use the DTS when watching flicks, and turn all effect off when listening to music. There's a DSP function that is supposed to be used with music, but IMO it's crap. And I'm pretty sure I've got it set up right. Anyway, is this not the case? Are my audio and HT still not separated?

    Also, say I'm happy with the performance of my current setup as far as the HT is concerned, although hearing a Pioneer Elite THX system might change that. :) But for the moment, I'm content. Let's also say that I'd like a little more from a music standpoint. While still utilizing what I have, what would I add to acheive, or at least attempt to acheive, a higher level of music sound? A separate dedicated integrated amp that links into the changer? A two-channel amp? Or something else? Would I still be able to use my fronts for both HT and audio w/o having to switch the bananas back and forth? Or is that what you were talking about putting a switch into the speaker cables? Now that I read it again, I think it was.

    Along those lines, I have an old Yamaha A-450 that I bought specifically for its phono capatibility at a Goodwill. I considered it to be a great find for a mere 20 bucks, in wicked condition. Its got two tape, tuner and phono. Could it be of any use?

    Um, do me a favor, when answering, please let me know what kind of amp you are talking about, whether it be integrated, pre, or power. I'm sure its painfully obvious for most of you guys, but, well you understand. :)

    The questions just seem to be endless don't they?
  • 12-26-2003, 09:36 PM
    mtrycraft
    [Point taken, but do me a favor, pretend for a moment that I'm not a whole lot different from just about every person that visits this site. How many rigs have you seen that the owner describes as being a work in progress? Its just like any other hobby I would guess. A coin collector doesn't stop collecting coins after he's got an even 100. A card collector doesn't stop collectings cards when he finally finds that Mickey Mantle autographed rookie card at some underground card shop buried in a stack of commons, although it'd be nice. :)


    Oh, but if you compare audio to some of these hobbies, then you are a collector of things of rarity. Unfortunately, or fortunately, audio components are consumables, not collectables :)


    What I'm saying this time, is my system has room to grow. Let me phrase my question a little differently, if you were me, where would you go from here?

    I'd persue the sub, a good one. SVS has some very good ones for the money, or, check out the recent Sound & Vision for a bunch of sub reviews.

    Maybe a good video source to enjoy your multi channel setup. You have great sound, now you need a great video to go with it :)
  • 12-26-2003, 09:51 PM
    Gimes
    "I'd persue the sub, a good one. SVS has some very good ones for the money, or, check out the recent Sound & Vision for a bunch of sub reviews.

    Maybe a good video source to enjoy your multi channel setup. You have great sound, now you need a great video to go with it."

    mtrycraft, points well taken. I remember someone recommending a SVS sub to me before, I'll have to check them out after I post.

    I completely agree with the video part. I'm using my roommate's old Hitachi projection big screen as we speak, and very unimpressed. Hell I'd rather watch movies on my 20" component video Toshiba Flat Screen, but then I'd have nothing in my bedroom. When changes do get made eventually, a widescreen HD will definitely be a priority. I think I'll wait for the prices to drop even further in that department first though.
  • 12-28-2003, 05:52 AM
    Geoffcin
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gimes
    Geoffcin, can't thank you enough for taking the time to respond.


    I like the idea of separating my audio from my HT, but I'm a little confused. This is lack of knowledge on my part, but I was under the impression that my current receiver already did this. Example, I only use the DTS when watching flicks, and turn all effect off when listening to music. There's a DSP function that is supposed to be used with music, but IMO it's crap. And I'm pretty sure I've got it set up right. Anyway, is this not the case? Are my audio and HT still not separated?

    Also, say I'm happy with the performance of my current setup as far as the HT is concerned, although hearing a Pioneer Elite THX system might change that. :) But for the moment, I'm content. Let's also say that I'd like a little more from a music standpoint. While still utilizing what I have, what would I add to acheive, or at least attempt to acheive, a higher level of music sound? A separate dedicated integrated amp that links into the changer? A two-channel amp? Or something else? Would I still be able to use my fronts for both HT and audio w/o having to switch the bananas back and forth? Or is that what you were talking about putting a switch into the speaker cables? Now that I read it again, I think it was.:)

    The questions just seem to be endless don't they?

    The questions are endless for all of us! Nobody can really tell you what your going to like, only steer you in the general direction. That being said, your receiver can be bested by most any integrated or separate combo.

    What I had recommended is a two channel amp, one with some serious power, and a decent preamp with a phono input. In the used market you can get into a pair of these for less than $1k. You could also go the route of getting an integrated amp too. The receiver you have can be left hooked up to the mains, as long as you put a switch in the speaker cables.

    If you want to see some of the stuff I like, here's a good example of an amp that can make a serious improvement in sound, even though it's only 1/2 the rated power of your receiver!

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=39783

    Here's an amp that's incredibly powerful, and a bargain to boot.

    http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.p...ran&1077242659

    These are only two of the many amps available on the used market.
  • 12-28-2003, 08:14 AM
    jbangelfish
    I agree with Geoffcin
    Separate amps and preamps will best any receiver that I have ever heard. This said, it can't be made as a complete blanket statement as some good receivers were undoubtedly made (Skeptic mentioned some Marantz receivers) and some junk separates have been made as well.
    The amps mentioned by Geoffcin would surely liven up your system. I'm a big believer in giving speakers the power that they can handle. Whether you need a sub or not, I don't know. What frequency range is given for your Klipsch speakers? If they don't reach below 40 or 50 hz, then a subwoofer will certainly help. If they are capable of getting down to 30hz or below without a sub, I think you'd be better off getting a more powerful amp to help them get there.
    If you intend to keep LP's and have a turntable, you need to consider this when buying a preamp or integrated amp. Some preamps have no phono stage and you would need to buy a separate phono preamp. It can be worth the effort but can run into some serious money when you consider all that is needed. If the albums are worn, scratched and you don't intend to buy more, you might put this on the back burner.
    There has been a long discussion going on about the good and bad points of music in multichannel. Most seemed to feel that two channel was superior for music playback. This could change as time goes on and as more music is recorded for multichannel. If you are young and don't have much of a music collection yet, it could be something to consider. I have yet to hear any multichannel that made me envious in any way and feel absolutely no need for it. My personal belief is that two channel stereo is here to stay, at least for a very long time as it is capable of giving most of us all that we could ever want for listening to music. Too many people have too much invested in two channel systems to switch over to some HT system looking for some kind of improvement. Good luck in your pursuit and enjoy the music.
    Bill