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  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Kenwood Basic M2A Shuts Down at Higher Volume

    Hello all,

    The subject line pretty-much says it all. At higher volume, my trusty old Kenwood Basic M2A appears to enter standby mode, cutting off the output and flashing the power indicator.

    Here's a list of what's running:

    Kenwood Basic M2A Power Amp
    Kenwood Basic C2 Control Amp
    Kenwood GE-1100 Equalizer
    Gemini CS-02 Mixer
    Gemini iTrax iPod Mixer
    Cerwin-Vega CLS-215 Speakers
    Technics SL1200 MKII (1983 originals)

    The CV's are hard-wired using about 30-feet lengths of 14g zip cord, properly phased and not touching anything but their intended connectors.

    I'm using the mixer output gain as my master volume, with the M2A output controls set to 7 each and the Basic C2 output around 12:00. The mixer input gain is set to about 80%. The mixer channel output varies between sources; usually between 5 and 9 (with 10 being maximum).

    Any ideas as to exactly what is causing the M2A to drop out? Any suggestions/comments welcome.

    Thanks,

    Jeff
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Kenwood Basic M2A Shuts Down at Higher Volume-img_6326.jpg   Kenwood Basic M2A Shuts Down at Higher Volume-img_6328.jpg   Kenwood Basic M2A Shuts Down at Higher Volume-img_6348.jpg  

  2. #2
    Chicago IL
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    I have no idea why it is doing that! Try to hook up the amplifier separated from the stuff you have to see if it still cuts or not. It could be something from the preamp or something else! Sometimes if you have many speakers connected to it could have lack of Ohms and not to be able to handle the speakers. I had this problem one time with one pioneer amplifier. Just try it separated with only 2 speakers to see how it sounds!

  3. #3
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    Are the Cerwin Vega speakers 4 Ohm? I think maybe it's a load issue.

  4. #4
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    I think its either one of two things. One-Your Kenwood has a protection mode for clipping and or distortion that shuts the amp down to standby statis when the amp is pushed past its limits and starts to clip or distort. this protects the amp and the speakers both from damage and is a good thing for the equipment. Two- your mixer that you are using for the master volume control has a very high output voltage at higher levels running to the kenwood and the amp is not liking that high of a input voltage.Try using a preamp made more for home use and play your source through your Kenwood and turn it up and see if it does the same thing, If so then you are going past the input voltage level of the amp and need to adjust this on the mixer or replace the mixer with a different unit with lower voltage. If it still shuts down then its the internal protection on the amp and that means that your Vega's are just to much for this amp at higher output levels and if you want to play them at these levels you might need to change amps and since your setup is more of a prosound type of setup and you like higher volume levels you might want to go ahead and make the move to a fan cooled pro sound amp like a crown or a USC. these amps are built for volume and have fan cooling for high output levels for extended periods of time in not so optimum conditions. I really think if this is your problem then one of these amps will be the answer. I read a review of the Vega speakers you have from a respectable reviewer and he said that these are good speakers but one thing is that they arent as effecient as the specs say so it might take more power than some of the older vega speakers to get the volume out of them.

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  5. #5
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    Oh another thing at 30 feet a peace I would move up to at least 12 guage speaker wire at those lengths. you will get better power transfer from your amplifier.I might even us 10 gauge if I was going that long but I really think your problem is that you just need more power to reach the levels that you want.

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  6. #6
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Your amp appears to be tough. But not DJ party tough. I don't know any specs for it, but pushing a signal 30 feet through 14 guage is a tough job. Clearly the amp is overloaded and is protecting itself. I agree with dak, pull it out and see how it performs direct with a shorter cable.

    Go with something like a big fat Bryston to give you the DJ party sound you're trying to get. You've got 2 opposing themes in your set up. The Bryston C-Series is wicked tough. My buddy has one at 250 wpc/8 ohms. Check this 4B SST2, 300 wpc / 8 ohms.

    Your Cerwin Vegas will be running when they see this badboy coming, while the Bryston laughs..."is that all you got for me?"


  7. #7
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    Poppa you are right the bryston would run the heck out of them. But I am not sure if onthepike is ready to spend that kind of money on an amp, And I'm not sure he needs to. The kiind of setup he has tells me he is more into volume and filling the room and not so much the transparency of a bryston amp. He could pick up a used QSC,CROWN, or SAMSON pro sound amp for probably around 300 to 500 bucks or less and have at 500 watts per channel to play with which I am sure his speakers could handle seeing how they are built(in fact I believe 500 watts is the max rms power for those big Vega'a so this should not hurt them but make them loud as hell. I think this will harmonize better with the other pro sound gear he is running and also with the built in fan cooling be able to handle the continious loud dynamics of a DJ type system. I guess its just up to what he really wants from his system. Just trying to help

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  8. #8
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    So the answer to the OP's question is apparently just to get a tougher amp, huh?

  9. #9
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    I would say so since home amplifiers were never really made for DJ type applications. Most home audio amps concintrate their efforts into nuetrallity and sound quality with good power where as pro sound amps change the direction to more rugedness and brute power output hints the fact that most pro sound amps are fan cooled while home amps usually arent due to them not needing to be, they don't get worked as hard. i just think with the op running a pro sound mixer for his control that is probably better off running balanced outputs instead of rca anyway that a pro sound amp like a Crown XTI 2000, or if he really feels froggy a 4000 would be the perfect solution. Heck I just seen a 2000 for under 500 bucks of Ebay that would put the slam on his speakers and laugh doing it.

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  10. #10
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    I took another look at the pictures and in the third picture the amp looks like its about half way down the equipment stack with several components on top of the amp. This will be a thermal problem for sure. Most power amps need room to have air flowing around them to keep them cool. before investing in another amp I would move this amp to the top of the rack or to another location with more air flow and see lif this keeps happening. I studied up on this amp a little bit and its not a sloutch in the power department. If the specs are measured accurately then driving your 4 ohm speakers this amp should be cranking out at least 300 watts per channel rms. Thats a pretty good amount of power so thats why I started looking at the pictures again and found where the amp is Try moving the amp and if this does not work the amp either has a clipping limiter circuit in it that shuts it down when it is overdriven or the amps protection circuit has a problem that makes it shut down prematurely. I would check all these things out and see whats going on but in any case I would not stack components on top of any amp! asking for trouble doing that.

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  11. #11
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    Just one more insight into your situation. If you are running your mixer into a input on your kenwood preamp then that might be causing a problem as well. Most stereo preamps were created to have inputs that have fixed output voltages from cd players,cassette decks etc. If you are running the mixer's variable output to a fixed voltage input on the preamp then you might be pushing to much preamp power to the fixed inputs on the kenwood preamp and causing a overload on the preamp side of things as well. I have seen people do this before and depending on the voltage ability of the inputs on the preamp some times it works and sometimes it causes issues. A preamp is mainly a unit that is there to take fixed output devises and allows the user to output variable voltage to the power amplifier to boost to levels to drive speakers. If you overload the preamp itself in the fixed input like the cd in or tape in then you will cause overloading issues with the preamp sending signals to the amplifier. If your Kenwood amplifier has the ability hook up the mixer to the amp without the Kenwood preamp and see if this problem goes away as well. The more I think about it the more things that come to me about mating pro sound gear with home audio gear. These units can work together in harmony if you know how to hook them up to there designed working order but if you start putting variable outputs into fixed inputs and the such I have seen problems arise from doing this. Just some more things to check out. I have worked with DJ and prosound equipment in the past and have installed sound reinforcment systems and know the problems that can happen when mixing these two worlds of compenents together. There again I am just trying to help you figure out your problem.

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  12. #12
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02audionoob
    So the answer to the OP's question is apparently just to get a tougher amp, huh?
    Not necessarily noob, but the easiest solution. IMO, the Kenwood can handle a good beating for a home set up, but the OP clearly needs reliable power for a more pro DJ type set up. Hopefully he will share with us how the Kenwood handles the demands of a mixer and the speakers, but I think his OP is speaking to this point already.

    I can tell you that as a musician, I wouldn't consider an amp like this Kenwood for powering anything. If the OP really is working the DJ angle, he should have an amp more up to the tasks that he requires.

    I think you're right harley, something that just provides good ol power should suffice. We'll have to wait to hear back...

    In the mean time, turn down the mixer..."between 5 and 9"...as your master volume, you should probably be a little more subtle and keep it between 3 and 7. 9 is REALLY pushing everything...

  13. #13
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    good point. I too play bass,guitar and sing so I have been around this kind of equipment for years and do know from experience the kind of problems that can arise from mixing home gear with pro sound stuff. it can be done but certain things have to happen and certain things cannot be done as well.

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  14. #14
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    We write and write and we still haven't heard anything form the owner of the amplifier!

  15. #15
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    Oh well when he does he will have every avenue to go down and check to find to find his problem and know how to fix it. Its a lot to read but there are many things that can cause problems with this type of setup. He took the time to setup his login so he will probably be back but if not this information might help someone else trying to do a similar setup. Either way I feel better that I might be able to help someone out there.

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dakatabg
    We write and write and we still haven't heard anything form the owner of the amplifier!
    Please don't take my lack of response(s) as an act of inconsideration. I appreciate all who have posted suggestions, and rather than discuss eash reply (which can come later), I thought it better to actually implement the suggestions posted by you folks.

    On a personal note, I am between surgical procedures and at-times, am on medications that are "coherent prohibitive" so-to-speak I trust you'll understand given these circumstances.

    In any event, I'm in the process of moving the amp atop the stack and setting up shorter, temporary lengths of wire as well as bypassing components to test the suggestions offered. My biggest problem now is actually moving the components, because the stack was actually "built-into" the bar with very little wiggle room to move components or anything else. I'm one of those who believe in "invisible wiring" and suffer the consequences there :-)

    Much of the wiring is behind sheetrock, ceilings and walls. The speaker wire, for example, runs from the M2A to the left, through the wall, into an angled staircase closet, through the ceiling for about 20 feet, then down the wall, behind the sheetrock and paneling and through the wall again finally terminating at each speaker. So to change that wire to a heavier gauge is a lot of work. I'm trying to eliminate all other possibilities before considering whether or not it's actually worth the work to replace the wire -- I'll only use this setup on occasion as it is.

    As far as actual DJ-ing is concerned, I haven't actually done any in over 15 years. The setup you see is our basement that we are converting into a "party room". So, if the bottom line is I just can't play music as loud as I'd like on occasion, I'll live with it, rather than purchase new equipment or re-run wire through walls and ceilings.

    Anyway, thanks again for all the suggestions. Will post back with results!

    *Regarding the pictures -- the yellow lines indicate speaker wiring, though through walls and ceilings. I'm REALLY hoping I don't have to change these.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Kenwood Basic M2A Shuts Down at Higher Volume-img_6331.jpg   Kenwood Basic M2A Shuts Down at Higher Volume-img_6357.jpg  

  17. #17
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    I would just check everything you can and run down the problem. Once found then you will know how to address the problem and hopefully you will not have to do all the work that you are not wanting to do. If the wiring keeps you from rearranging the equipment the only other thing you could try is fan cooling the whole equipment cabinet which will help all the components run cooler.

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  18. #18
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    It seems like you could help thermal issues if you could lift the components that are above the amp so there's a few inches above the slots in the amp cover. I lean toward agreeing with the fan idea.

    I would also be interested in knowing how the system runs with the C2 volume at the 1:00 position and the level knobs on the M2A at 1:00, with no mixer. With an M2A it seems like that ought to be pretty loud. If it's not loud enough, I'd go back to the suggestion of more power, but that could involve a loss of sound quality unless it was a high end amp.

  19. #19
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02audionoob
    It seems like you could help thermal issues if you could lift the components that are above the amp so there's a few inches above the slots in the amp cover. I lean toward agreeing with the fan idea.

    I would also be interested in knowing how the system runs with the C2 volume at the 1:00 position and the level knobs on the M2A at 1:00, with no mixer. With an M2A it seems like that ought to be pretty loud. If it's not loud enough, I'd go back to the suggestion of more power, but that could involve a loss of sound quality unless it was a high end amp.
    ahem.....BRYSTON!!!.....cough, hack.....ahem....

  20. #20
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harley .guy07
    If the specs are measured accurately then driving your 4 ohm speakers this amp should be cranking out at least 300 watts per channel rms.
    Which would be an amazing feat of magic given that it draws only 500 watts from the wall. 120 % efficiency!



    rw

  21. #21
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    I was just going off of someones ratings one a site about this amp. They were repairing it so I figured they were good numbers but I guess I was wrong. I am not familiar with this exact Kenwood amp but with the input watteage max being of 500 watts and taking in consideration the fact that its a class A/B design most likely then its not even getting close to those numbers. More realistically this amp probably is around 125 watts per channel or something around that figure. At this power then you are probably seriously underpowering your speakers if loud volumes are what your after which in turn is probably the overload protection or thermall protection on the amp kicking in thats your problem

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  22. #22
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harley .guy07
    I was just going off of someones ratings one a site about this amp.
    I was trying to be facetious and found the same overstated ratings. It can't come close to delivering that kind of power. I agree that the OP is most likely driving the amp to clipping.

    rw

  23. #23
    Audio Hobbyist Since 1969 Glen B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harley .guy07
    I was just going off of someones ratings one a site about this amp. They were repairing it so I figured they were good numbers but I guess I was wrong. I am not familiar with this exact Kenwood amp but with the input watteage max being of 500 watts and taking in consideration the fact that its a class A/B design most likely then its not even getting close to those numbers. More realistically this amp probably is around 125 watts per channel or something around that figure. At this power then you are probably seriously underpowering your speakers if loud volumes are what your after which in turn is probably the overload protection or thermall protection on the amp kicking in thats your problem
    I owned a Basic M2A for a while back in the 1980s at the same time as a Nikko Alpha 450. The M2A matched the Alpha 450 in terms of perceived loudness. I would say the M2A was true to its specification of 220W x 2. The rear of the amp does not say the 500W is a "maximum" consumption rating. There's a lot of love for the M2A outside of AR, particularly at AudioKarma. There is no indication that the amp is overrated.
    Last edited by Glen B; 10-22-2009 at 11:49 AM.

  24. #24
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen B
    I would say the M2A was true to its specification of 220W x 2. The rear of the amp does not say the 500W is a "maximum" consumption rating.
    According to Kenwood's description of their Dynamic Linear Drive, the amp is of the Class G / H category. While these are more efficient than class AB designs, NO amp can output more power than it consumes. While 440 watts output for 500 watts output is plausible at 88% efficiency, the notion of producing more than 300 per channel into 4 ohms is not.

    rw

  25. #25
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    yeah that sounds reasonable. And I did not realize the topology of this exact amplifier enough to know what kind of efficiency to expect or if these figures are true or overrated. I know when I was younger People I talked to that were into audio in the 70's said that there was quite a few amplifiers especially the quad amps that were overrated. While I am not sure if this amp is or not most companies post their power consumption ratings as volts input, frequency of current flow, and usually the max watts input power. Companies usually don't just through in a figure for wattage from the wall outlet they usually figure these as max wattage pull from the wall outlet. My Adcom 545 Mk2 power amp has a current input rating of 110 v, 60 hertz, and 600 watts max input. thats higher than this Kenwood rates as far as input power useage and while I know the topology is different with these two amps I also know the reality of what can be done with amplifier effiency and like said before you can't get 250 watts per channel with 500 watt input. Not even class d designs are that efficient and are among the most efficient designs out there right now.

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