Jolida

[Bigmoney]

Hello, I am set on buying a tube integrated and furthermore have decided on jolida to be the manufacturer. Can anyone reccommend a jolida model that is best under a grand used or new. I will use this to power my b and w dm 602's and possible another undetermined speaker I replace them with. I am seeling my rotel amp, mint condition, owned less than 3 months for 700 dollars, and my preamp also mint and of the same age for 350, and will sell them as the pair for 975 plus shipping. If interested let me know. What do you think about jolida integrateds and the options I have.

[blackraven]

Here's a link to some jolida equiment http://responseaudio.com click on retail product line

If your looking at hybrids, you should consider the Vincent Audio hybrid power amp and keep your preamp. The vincent amp has gotten great reviews and is supposed to give a nice analog sound.

[blackraven]

Here's a link to the Vincent Hybrid amp http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VISP331

I have been considering this amp.

[Feanor]

Here's a link to the Vincent Hybrid amp http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VISP331

I have been considering this amp.

I must say, that does sound kickass, blackraven.

And their SA-31 preamp could be a good match, especially at the price.

[Bigmoney]

I have to say I am pretty much set on buying an integrated, as I think they are the better value and the need for space. I think because of a single chassis and common ground and also a single power cord and pair of interconnects needed it is the best way to go. I am strongly considering the shanling a300, which I know brett owns and loves. I elieve it has a tube pre section and runs in dual mono at 200 watts. Also good deals can be found on this amp for around a thousand new! It is hard to find reviews on this integrated but it looks and seems awesome on paper. Any other reccommendations for 1000 dollar integrated tube, or very warm sounding SS.

[Feanor]

I have to say I am pretty much set on buying an integrated, as I think they are the better value and the need for space. I think because of a single chassis and common ground and also a single power cord and pair of interconnects needed it is the best way to go. I am strongly considering the shanling a300, which I know brett owns and loves. I elieve it has a tube pre section and runs in dual mono at 200 watts. Also good deals can be found on this amp for around a thousand new! It is hard to find reviews on this integrated but it looks and seems awesome on paper. Any other reccommendations for 1000 dollar integrated tube, or very warm sounding SS.

If you can get an A3000 (which I think you mean) for $1000 from a reputable source, maybe you should go for it. The going online price seems to be $1700.

Personally I have found that it's true about the tube sound, and a hybrid design is an effective tube/solid state compromise. The Shanling uses 6922 tubes and the are lots of varieties of this specification; this allows for lots of fun tube rolling -- and different tubes do make a difference, (more so than interconnects in my experience).
...

[Bigmoney]

Any warm tube or ss integrateds you can reccommend in my price range. Go to nysound.com and ull see the shanling for 900 bucks. Funny, you reccomended the vincent for me because thats my name haha.

[RGA]

I would probably go with the Jolida 302B. Hybrids are typically designed for people who have speakers that are not designed for tubes - the owner realized the speakers have serious problems and want some sort of FIX in the treble. It is better to buy a speaker designed for tubes and then you can get an all tube amp taking full advantage of tubes not just 50%

I would also recommend the Antique Sound Labs line as they seem a bit better built and offer more features for similar money. The AQ 1003 DT would be the direct competitor of the 302B http://www.divertech.com/antiquesl.html
review http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...slaq1003dt.htm

If you're willing to build a kit the Audio Note Kit 1 pretty much sets the standard for the price range http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...ionotekit1.htm

Cayin has been getting huge talk on other forums and is certainly worth checking out http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...ayin_a_50t.htm

If you're willing to buy used then the Manley Stingray would be worth your while http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...0/stingray.htm - This with the AN Kit 1 would be my first choices - but alas more expensive choices.

[Bigmoney]

What are some speakers made for tubes? Do you reccommend the tube integrates you mentioned over the shanling?

[RGA]

Shanling is a bit more style over substance - their cd player is the only thing I've heard and is on par with cd players for half its price. But they look great and all things considered isn't the worst thing - but you'd want to listen without your eyes to make sure you're not buying on sex appeal. The Audio Note Kit one is perhaps the ugliest tube I can think of so you certainly won't be buying on looks there - really they could make it look a little nicer. The Manly is designed by a woman - one of the few in the audio industry and it looks quite excellent - they make less expensive tube amps as well but I don't know them.

I'm pretty familiar with B&W and interestingly they don't require tons of power - all of the tube amps I mention will be more than enough for the 602S2 or 602S3. In fact the best sound I ever heard from the N801 was with an 11 watt SET. Yes 11 measly watts. The amps was about $8,000 from a company out of Australia who I can;t remember. The problem was it could not play loud enough to warrant the combined $22k. The 602S3 however is more than fine with 25 watts - it will play very loud.

89db sensitive and reasonable loads (not too much under 3.5ohms dips) will be no trouble for any of these amps.

Of course High efficiency speakers are always something to consider because you have far greater amp choices. My amp is 10 watts but in fact is really only distortion free to 4.2 watts. My speakers are a modest 93db sensitive min 5ohms) but there are many things to consider than just the numbers - driver material box designs crossovers.

Generally speaking lower powered tube amps prefer simplicity - one or two way loudspeakers no long throw woofers, lighter materials like good paper or hemp woofers as opposed to rigid polypropolene or Kevlar. But there are exceptions - the 602 is pretty good here and one of my favorites under $1k. I actually think it's a much better line than the 700 series.

Ultimately watts are truly damaging to the audio world - peopel are so caught up looking at numbers but something like the Sugden a21a class A amp will drive well most of today's loudspeakers and it is 25 watts per channel. It takes ten times the power to play twice as loud - ie 250 watts. And how many speakers can take 250 watts? Not many.

As for specific suggestions it's tough because Klipsch is the only mainstream brand I can think of and their horns are not always desirable for people.

Omega Loudspeakers I have not heard but they are an interesting option as they are a one driver speaker - making them a tube amp dream - they're revered in a number of circles for budget loudspeakers. The Audio Note AX Two is killer good standmount under $1k (the AN E Kit would be ideal but a bit pricey I suspect) The AN E is the best speaker I have heard in 20 years so it's hard not suggest them. You're going to see this speaker a lot over the years to follow as several of the review publications have gotten on board. Hi-Fi Choice has been using them as reference speakers for over 15 years, Stereophile has two reviewers who have them, Hi-Fi News, the Audio Critic, enjoythemusic, Dagogo all have several reviewers with them. They sell them as a kit or in over ten versions all upgradeable. Their designed for SE tube amplifiers.

HOWEVER, their all kinda ugly and fussy. Reference 3a is another good one but prices go up.

High efficiency speakers done well is expensive unfortunately - part of the reason manufacturers don't do them.

Here are some links to speakers
The AX Two http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue23/myaudio.htm
Omega http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/super3xrs.html

Most horn speakers like tubes as well so whatever is in your area may hold something of interest to you. All that said the 602 with a 20-30 watt tube amp should easily be enough. 10 is enough if you're not a bass hound or head banger.

[basite]

What are some speakers made for tubes? Do you reccommend the tube integrates you mentioned over the shanling?

I too would recommend the tube integrateds he mentioned above over the shanling, and especially over the vincents (which are even more style over subtstance IMHO), the vincent amps I heard did go very loud and had alot of power, but they lacked all the magic that is supposed to be there with good products, the sound had no soul.

my personal choice would go to the Manley, btw...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Bigmoney]

Guess I have three final questions.
1. Is the manley worth the exra cost (used) over a jolida used or new. The manley is twice the jolidas at both their retail prices.
2. Given the low power of the amps would I benefit from a subwoofer to high pass the mains and relieve the amp from the deep bass. Im sure a lot of people must have considered this.
3. Lastly, I hear tubes are less reliable than ss, if I was to have to replace a tube would I be able to given I have never used tubes before. Guess I am saying are tubes difficult to take care of it you have never used them before.

[Feanor]

Guess I have three final questions.
1. Is the manley worth the exra cost (used) over a jolida used or new. The manley is twice the jolidas at both their retail prices.
2. Given the low power of the amps would I benefit from a subwoofer to high pass the mains and relieve the amp from the deep bass. Im sure a lot of people must have considered this.
3. Lastly, I hear tubes are less reliable than ss, if I was to have to replace a tube would I be able to given I have never used tubes before. Guess I am saying are tubes difficult to take care of it you have never used them before.

In response to your questions:

1. I don't know. Then again I'd recommend a hybrid over a pure tube amp.
2. Sure, especially with low power such as from 30-50 watt tube amps.
3. Tubes can last many thousands of hours that is, for a decades of use, but it depending on the particular circuit design. Replacement is usually easy if the tubes are socketed, this is usually but not always the case. Looks like the Vincent, for example, uses a soldered-in tube; of course its design might ensure a very long life span. The other consideration is the tube specification: some tube types are rare, others, e.g. the 6922 used in the Shanling A300, are very common.

[Ajani]

Guess I have three final questions.
1. Is the manley worth the exra cost (used) over a jolida used or new. The manley is twice the jolidas at both their retail prices.
2. Given the low power of the amps would I benefit from a subwoofer to high pass the mains and relieve the amp from the deep bass. Im sure a lot of people must have considered this.
3. Lastly, I hear tubes are less reliable than ss, if I was to have to replace a tube would I be able to given I have never used tubes before. Guess I am saying are tubes difficult to take care of it you have never used them before.

Two more questions you might want to ask:

4. How much does it cost to replace the stock tubes (when they wear out) with ones of similar quality?

5. How often would you likely have to replace the tubes?

[audio amateur]

If it's just for the amp, I don't think high pass filtering will make a heck of a difference. On top of that you'll need the sub, which you also have to pay for.

[Bigmoney]

As I mentioned earlier I would be willing to buy a subwoofer. All in all I just want a warm musical integrated for unde ra thousand, that being the reason I thought a integrated might suit my needs. I would be open to ss integrateds but it needs to be warmer sounding and muscial. I thought the shanling would be a good compromise betweeen solidstate and tube but I was kinda turned off by what rga had to say about style over substance, after all I want my moneys worth in quality. I am getting rid of the rotels because they are to harsh and analytical for my tastes plus I will be in college next year and would rather and all in one component for space.

[audio amateur]

As I mentioned earlier I would be willing to buy a subwoofer. All in all I just want a warm musical integrated for unde ra thousand, that being the reason I thought a integrated might suit my needs. I would be open to ss integrateds but it needs to be warmer sounding and muscial. I thought the shanling would be a good compromise betweeen solidstate and tube but I was kinda turned off by what rga had to say about style over substance, after all I want my moneys worth in quality. I am getting rid of the rotels because they are to harsh and analytical for my tastes plus I will be in college next year and would rather and all in one component for space.

If you're getting rid of the rotels because of their sound, don't take our word on these amps, you should go listen to some in-store.

[Feanor]

What are some speakers made for tubes? Do you reccommend the tube integrates you mentioned over the shanling?

The usual advice is to choose your speakers, then choose the amp to drive them. As for the B&Ws, the current model 683 is fairly efficient at 90bB from 2.83V at 1m. It is likely that the modest tube amps will drive them to adequate volumes for most types of music most of the time, but if you're a hard rocker, maybe not.

The other question is what if you decide you really like a speaker that has, say, a 86dB efficiency? Suddenly you need more than twice the power to get the same volume. Would you then be willing to trade your amp as well as your speakers at the same time?

[Bigmoney]

True, if I was going to go ss or hybrid which would you choose between the shanling and the musical fidelity a3.5 which I can get for around the same price. Looks like for now I am stuck with the 602s as the mains but I will be upgrading them to whatever suits my new integrated best once graduation rolls around and I save some more coin. Possibly the audio not as mentioned above,

[RGA]

bigmoney

Good questions you're asking.

1. Is the manley worth the exra cost (used) over a jolida used or new. The manley is twice the jolidas at both their retail prices.

Quality costs money in some cases - whether the Manley is worth it or not to you only you can judge and you have to listen to determine that. I try not to don't judge prices until after I hear the particular unit. Whether a speaker, room, your ear, is capable of revealing the differences is also a factor. The Jolida and the ASL have subwoofer outputs - not sure about the Manly. Audio Note believes subwoofers deter from the sound, i agree, so likely not on theirs.

2. Given the low power of the amps would I benefit from a subwoofer to high pass the mains and relieve the amp from the deep bass. Im sure a lot of people must have considered this.

yes but that's because they have speakers not designed for tubes and should not be using them. So long as the speaker is relatively easy to drive and is 2 way 2 driver or less system you should have no trouble. The 602 does not have deep bass and the Jolida or ASL have more than enough power. Both of these have a subwoofer output as well so the point is moot - the powered sub has its own amp.


3. Lastly, I hear tubes are less reliable than ss, if I was to have to replace a tube would I be able to given I have never used tubes before. Guess I am saying are tubes difficult to take care of it you have never used them before.

Tubes amps in some ways are more reliable - if a tube amp blows it is easier and cheaper to fix - generally the tube goes and you replace it. If the main board of a SS goes up you need a whole new amplifier. That said both are unlikely to blow up. The most expensive part of a tube amp is the transformer and they are costly to replace. Jolida's track record is not super IMO. A dealer in Vancouver had the 202a in continuously for repairs and 3 times I went in to audition it and it failed. My Antique Sound labs is 8 years old and still on the stock tubes and no problems.

Tubes are more fussy depending on the tube. Some self bias requireing no work whatsoever. The advantage of the Audio Note and SETs is that they require no biasing meters - pull tube out stick new one in (like a light bulb) and it's that easy. Some Audio Note tube cd players are rated for 100,000 hours or 24 hours a day for 11+ years. With the jolida and the ASL you need a voltmeter and follow their instructions every time a tube is replaced. You have to be somewhat careful. The ASL has the meter built right onto the amplifier making things much easier. Also when one power tube goes it is recommended to replace all 4 for a matched quad. But you can see how much tubes cost when shopping for an amp.

The Manley uses EL 84 tubes which are less costly to replace than EL 34s and EL84s tend to last twice as long as well. Though neither are that expensive - around $10.00 for EL84s and maybe $20 for EL 34s (both go up from them there). So if a tube goes and you replace the lot you're looking at $40 - $70 to replace all 4 power tubes. http://thetubestore.com/

the voltmeter thing really only needs to be done when you replace tubes - it takes about 5minutes and every 3-8 years depending on tube life and how much you listen.

There are a lot of tube sellers so getting a hold of tubes should be easy. Part of the fun is tube rolling.

[Feanor]

True, if I was going to go ss or hybrid which would you choose between the shanling and the musical fidelity a3.5 which I can get for around the same price. Looks like for now I am stuck with the 602s as the mains but I will be upgrading them to whatever suits my new integrated best once graduation rolls around and I save some more coin. Possibly the audio not as mentioned above,

I've hear neither of them. If you can compare them in the same system, either in a showroom or at home, then you would have some basis of comparison.

If I'm not mistaken, the A3.5 was recently discontinued by Musical Fidelity which would explain how it's going for $800. Without hearing them together, if some one put a gun to my head and said,"Choose", I'd pick the MF on the basis of the longevity of the manufacturer and eventual resale value.

[RGA]

Unlike Feaner, though he makes a valid point, I would not be buying an amplifier for its resale value - because why would I buy an amp in the first place if I were prepared to re-sell it. I have been roundly unimpressed with every Musical Fidelity amplifier over the last 15 years. If the 3.5 is discontinued all I can say is that it was a long time coming. They had a dedicated tube amp line (Tivista or Nuvista or something) that was quite a bit better but more expensive.

Ideally you want to go through a dealer who can repair the items in store. ASL has been around for over 15 years and they have a lot of dealers and support. There is no fear buying from them. Jolida and Audio Note has been around for a long time 25 and 30 years respectively.

The 302B is 50 watts more then enough power and so is the ASL AQ1003DT.

it takes twice the power to get a largely unnoticable 3db gain in volume level. Ie you would need 100 watts to get a 3db gain in volume level.

SS power is unnecessary.

This is a simple power guide: If i have 93db sensitive loudspeakers versus the standard 87db standard loudspeakers the power requirements are as follows:

93db speaker
1 watt = 93db (this is deemed as being LOUD) with just one watt - most listening is done under 85db no even requiring 1 watt.
2 w = 96db
4w = 99db
8w = 102db (Very loud - ear damaging loud)
16 = 105db
32w = 108db
64w = 111db (concert levels)
128w = 114db
256w = 117db (most speakers can not handle 256 watts - check the speakers but most handle between 50 and 150 watts making 114db the maximum for most - less actually).

87db speaker

1w = 87db
2w = 90db
4w = 93db (matches what the 93db speaker does with 1 watt)
8w = 96db
16w = 99db
32w= 102db
64w= 105db
128w = 108db (the ASL 30 watter with 93db speakers does what a typical 125 watt amp does with typical mainstream speakers)
256w = 111db (again most speakers can't handle 250 watts and won't therefore be able to go to 114db).

in other words a 30 watt amp with 93db speakers will play as loud as an 87db speaker with a 125 watt amp. Watts is NOT volume - the speaker has just as much impact if not more on loudness capability. Most listening at the listening chair is around 70-85db.

As you can see in most cases anything above 30 watts is selling numbers that are unnecessary and often sound worse. They thin out the bass lines with high negative feedback which is mistaken for tighter bass when in fact it's just leaner and fatiguing.

[Bigmoney]

Audio Amateur you said If I am getting rid of the rotels because of their sound dont listen to everyone why do you say that. I didnt think rotels were know for warm sound in fact I thought the opposite.

[Feanor]

...
...
it takes twice the power to get a largely unnoticable 3db gain in volume level. Ie you would need 100 watts to get a 3db gain in volume level.
...

87db speaker

1w = 87db
2w = 90db
4w = 93db (matches what the 93db speaker does with 1 watt)
8w = 96db
16w = 99db
32w= 102db
64w= 105db
128w = 108db
...

As you can see in most cases anything above 30 watts is selling numbers that are unnecessary and often sound worse. They thin out the bass lines with high negative feedback which is mistaken for tighter bass when in fact it's just leaner and fatiguing.

This doesn't jive with reality however. For one thing the volumes above are take at 1 meter; from a quasi-point source like a dynamic driver, the volume decreases as the cube of the distance. Granted most driver are perfect point sources and most listening rooms aren't anechoic chambers, nevertheless volume is much less at 8 or 9 feet. What's more, the practical experience is amps require more power than these number suggest. Most people report significant dynamic improvement going to more powerful amps.

I will allow that few speakers actually require 200+wpc in a medium sized room, but I'm hesitant to recommend amps of less than 100 wpc to anyone who wants the flexibility to change speakers without having to worry about amp power at the same time.

[RGA]

Feaner

Perhaps you should actually experience it rather than read about it. My speakers are a modest 93db sensitive and are placed in corners - technically farther from the listening chair than free standing speakers. I have a 10 watt amp. I'll be happy to demonstrate in a normal listening room how much bass and volume is capable real world for you with a ten watt amp.

As a point of reference I also own a set of loudspeakers that are capable of 120db and I can make a person leave the room in pain. So I am pretty well versed on volume capability of the 93db and 10 watt amp I have versus the 95db 160watt Bryston set-up I have had in my room. Granted the latter will play louder obviously but the real question is why is one buying the system - obviously not for sheer brute volume. With the first system it Sounds vastly better and plays to a level where my keyboard bounces and painting fall off the wall. The latter system pushed might crack the plaster too but there becomes a point where music appreciation is completely lost with high volume levels.

From a technical standpoint you are correct that spl is lost with distance but 90db at the listening chair is LOUD folks and the power levels above (with room gain) is still easy to maintain with 10 watts - 30 watts used to be considered beastly until the marketers got a hold of it.

When I heard it for the first time I was amazed - quite an eyeopener.

With high efficiency speakers you can run every amplifier - HE speakers give you far more options when buying amplifiers. And HE speakers usually sound better to boot.