FWIW, I live in the largest city in S.C. yet there is no opportunity to audition a SET here. I also do not know of any audio stores in Charlotte, N.C. that carry SETs. I bought two of mine on ebay and one on C.L.
I believe the reason many high end audio stores are reluctant to carry SETs is it forces them to also carry HE speakers ( often single driver FR ) which have less market appeal and can not command the higher price tags.
I read so many articles extolling the virtues of single ended triodes, buying one was only a slight leap of faith.
Interesting article on SET amps
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05-02-2012, 03:03 AMPoultrygeist
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05-02-2012, 04:35 AMFeanor
The Atma-Sphere blurb is the standard anti-solid state cant. E-Stat and I were just finished grinding through all that stuff, which is why I might have sounded dismissive.
Why don't people don't people just believe and get baptised in the SET/HE faith? Why are there so many religious people? Beats me.
Well, except you say "believe your ears". My ears are telling me I'm getting great sound right now with my ripped CDs, s/s DAC, and class D amp. Could there be better sound? Likely, but I just don't have any incentive to change.
BTW, I'm not complacent: I'll switch when I feel the need. I changed from my low feedback, "tonally rich", more tube-like Monarchy amps because I felt I was missing maximal resolution, transparency, and most accurate instrument timbres. My current amp is better -- I'm believing my ears. -
05-02-2012, 06:53 AME-StatYou're mixing messages. Ralph Karsten doesn't make single ended triode amps. Triode, yes. Just like my VTLs which are switchable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Only SETs limit your choice of speakers.
You will never understand until you have a really good tube amp in your system for a while. There are many which do well with Magneplanars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
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05-02-2012, 07:51 AMFeanorYep, I just don't see how 2-8 watts/ch is going to work for me. HE speakers are a whole other matter, and I'm not going to restrict myself to horn or single driver just so I can check out SET.Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
Some fine day I will try a tube amp. The problem is it won't be the likes of your VTL. Even so, I will try some sort of push-pull that will do 50+ wpc. 30 wpc would probably work well enough for my chamber music listening but I think I'd be making big compromises in case of orchestral. Possibly I could bi-amp with an s/s tube combo (?).Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
Meanwhile I'm remarkably satisfied with my current setup -
05-02-2012, 12:23 PMPoultrygeist
If you can not reach a listening level with that first watt you miss all of what's happening there. The first watt is where the magic lies. It contains 10 times the dynamic range of the next watt. SET/HE owners are fortunate enough to hear what they're getting in that all important first watt. Megga watt amps driving 83 db multi-driver speakers just can't go there.
No amp can resolve detail at low levels like a single ended triode driving HE speakers and that's probably the main reason folks who eventually land there seldom find anything they like better.
I was remarkably satisfied with my Classe and Aerials until I heard a SET driving HE FR speakers. -
05-02-2012, 01:04 PME-StatI don't know of any systems where that is not possible. A 256 watt amp has 24 db more output than a one watt system. Many recordings achieve better than 60 db of usable dynamic range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
edit: I am currently listening to the double New Advents in the garage at approximately the two watt level (-30db). Which for the Stasis means that the class A voltage amp is totally driving the speakers.
I concur that the treasure lies at the micro dynamic level, but don't agree with your math. Doubling power represent only a 3db change. A 10 db change requires ten times the power. And dynamic range is relative to the noise level of the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
So, what is your point of reference for the best system in your experience that is not SET/horn based - on which your opinion is based? I'd be curious as to what you are comparing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
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05-02-2012, 04:19 PMPoultrygeist
A pair of 96 db speakers playing with 1 watt against the average noise floor in one's listening room has 40 dbs of dynamic range but adding a second watt only increases the dynamic range by 3 dbs. For every additional 3 dbs you would need to double the power. It's all about the resolution in hearing the inner detail of that first watt. High efficiency full range drivers have very low mass and are faster and more accurate than inefficient drivers using heavier parts. The ultra thin banana paper cones of my Fostex and Tang Band drivers are like butterfly wings.
I recently auditioned a pair of $32k Aerial 10T powered by a high end solid state CJ amp. In no way did I hear the low level inner detail I'm accustomed to with my homespun SET/FR OB's. I found myself turning up the volume to hear more but I never heard more. With my home system I find myself turning the volume down to hear more.
A few years ago I purchased my first SET, a $240 Miniwatt. I was so bowled over I sold my Classe CAP-150 on ebay within a matter of days. The liquid warmth of the Miniwatt and great detail far surpassed the sterile sounding $3000 Classe. The $300 FR Tektons I bought at the same time replaced my $2500 Aerial Model 5's. It was an epiphany for me.
My son-in-law has some $30k powered Meridians ( once belonged to Emmitt Smith ) but they can't produce the holographic imaging and stunning clarity I get from my Bottlehead 2a3/OBs. The bloom and decay with sonic naturalness is what I get with SETs and I just don't hear this with the better solid state amps.
Since the single ended triode is the simplest of all amp circuits and uses the least number of parts perhaps there's just less to get in the way of the music. -
05-02-2012, 04:33 PMRGA
Feanor
You don't strike me as a headbanger.
In a modest size room say 13 X 18 X 9 my 4 watt (undistorted) Audio Note OTO with the notoriously wimpy EL 84 output tubes had no trouble playing the AN K louder than I am comfortable listening.
The AN K is 90db (perhaps less given how AN is deemed to over spec their sensitivity ratings.
This is hardly a super efficient speaker - it's a little above average if their spec is correct. So you don't need a horn and you don't need a single driver.
I am currently reviewing the Class T amps from Trends - I've tried them on three loudspeakers including their own 88dB speakers. It also has not trouble driving any of the speakers to loud levels without me cranking the volume - again far louder than I would ever listen - (including classical).
The T amps are rated 15 watts but looking at the numbers more carefully it's only 6 watts into 8ohms with acceptable distortion - 10 watts into 8 ohms with 10% THD. 15 watts into 4ohms with 10% THD.
As the watts drop the distortion drops dramatically - similar to SET.
Again Monarchy isn't a SET. It's another SS amp trying to sound like a SET. ie; veiled - I only heard them once and maybe it was the speakers - but I'm not surprised you found better. -
05-02-2012, 04:42 PME-StatI'm glad we got that issue solved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
I'm delighted you agree with me about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
You have created a religion around the first watt. Admittedly, Nelson Pass would smile at your concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
On that topic we are in complete agreement. Since a full range driver possess one coil of wire in addition to the cone itself, the mass is relatively low as compared with other cone speakers. The mass of thirty square feet of the U-1's diaphragm, however, is less than the air around it. I really do understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
Would you care to complete the description of the system?Quote:
Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
I looked to see what I could find about ithe Classe and located a schematic. It uses ten op amps in the front end and has but a 34 joule power supply. Your description of its sound makes sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
I confess that I've never really favored powered speakers either. I had some active Braun speakers back in the mid 70s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
Yes, the power amp is but one of about eight factors in the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
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05-02-2012, 05:23 PMFeanorRight: I'm not. But if I'm going to spring bucks (of which I have too few), I don't want to waste it on an under powered amp. I know 50 watts would do for the Maggies but I'm not so sure about fewer.Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Humm ... well class D/T amps are significantly different than AB amps.Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
It's a somewhat of an understatement to say the Monarchys are "veiled", but there better out there -- and not only SET.Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
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05-02-2012, 06:14 PMRGA
Feanor
Yes but it sounds veiled coming from a SET guy. That might make you think. The Sugden A48b solid state amp I had sounded veiled as well - mind you in a good way because it's very nice to lesser recordings and not so veiled to ruin excellent recordings. Nevertheless, it could be bettered.
If you're ever in Victoria BC for a holiday (and it is one of the world's great vacation spots) spend a day (just not Sunday or Monday) and listen to your 1.6 or the new 1.7 on an AN amp - then against any SS or digital amp they sell - they sell Meridian, Sim Audio, Bryston, Classe, Ayre.
There is a reason they waste the added electricity and tube life demoing the speakers on a much more costly to run tube amp of sub 20 watts.
And because people will write it off as AN love fest, a similar result with Wyetech Labs running B&W N801 speakers. The N801s are harder to drive that the Magnepans for SET amps but taking high volume listening off the table the actual sound quality was quite excellent. Never heard the speaker sound so good. -
05-03-2012, 04:23 AMFeanorSo you've heard the Monarchy? Which model? The Sugden reputation of sounding veiled goes way back, yet you loved the A21/A21a for a long time. Yeah, like the Sugden, I quess, the Monarchys were favourable to less-good recordings.Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
I'll repeat my story: The Monarchys beat my previous Bel Canto on 70% of recordings -- but they were all my worst recordings. My current CDA amp is better than the Monarchy on 70+% of recordings including all my best recordings.
Have they got Class D Audio amps?Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
The Wyetech have quite a reputation among connoisseurs; I love to hear them.Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
http://www.wyetechlabs.com/images/sa...re_7422_72.jpg -
05-03-2012, 05:03 AMRGA
Soundhounds sells Wyetech Labs. They prefer Audio Note so if you like Wyetech you can probably get it cheap cause they want to get rid of them.
They send a salesman to CES and a few other shows yearly - if they like something they may pick it up - if they don't sell Class D there is a reason. Although I am sure there are class D in some of the subs they sell.
Their website has a list of most of some the brands they sell - I say some because there is a lot not up there yet.
Products
Maybe there is Class D.
I don't recall the Monarchy model - this was a long time back when there was a craze for the Bel Canto and Panasonic amps - Monarchy and another brand. I don't comment on the Monarchy too much because it was just a power amp - and to me the preamp makes more of a difference - and the preamp wasn't from Monarchy. I don't recall the number except that it had a big power switch on the front and handles - circa 2004.
Bel Canto I didn't like and that was an integrated so it's easier to talk about it. I compared it against a second hand the SS YBA Integra DT which killed it on PMC and Martin Logan speakers.
At that time I was considering the YBA Integra DT cause the used priced was nice. FWIW the amp I liked the least in my sessions were from Copland - a respected tube maker but it sounded too much like stereotypical tubes.
The Sugden A48b which I had was a class A/B 70 watt amp and it sounds far more like a tube amp than the A21a.
I think it comes down to what you are listening for in music - the instruments themselves or the spatial cues. I compared the A48b to a brute force SS amp from Musical FIdelity. The latter was something like 150watts per channel and had tremendous "air" and a larger left to right stage. Although I feel such amps that have a lot of "air' have no actual reality to anything I've heard live. The Sugden had more weight and depth on basses and piano and cello and more tone and decay and seemed beefier and more solid. The MF was easy peezy breezy and and again had a pronounced larger stage. I don;t know but I got the uneasy feeling as if it was "stretching" the stage to make it artificially big - like a television that stretches a pan and scan seen to make it fit the rectangular dimensions thus making people fatter.
The thing is there is a taste factor - the guy who traded in the A48b traded it in for the Musical Fidelity (I believe the A300). One sales guy like the MF better the others in the room liked the A48b better.
On piano to me there is no comparison but on some of the opera's where there is a big stage you could visualize them moving across the stage - the Sugden did it too but it wasn't as grand. On the other hand when you had a bass line - you could rally feel it and it had physical weight. The Bryston amps are just the same as the MF amps - thin and brittle sounding but airy and big sounding for stage affects. Which is probably why they get mated to Magnepan which IMO is their greatest strength (staging). The A21a is between those two based on my audition of the circa 1992 model - not the newer ones which seem to have more complaints.
I'm not opposed to class D - perhaps I will run across one I like. I like the cheap and cheerful Class T amps I've been reviewing. Although to be honest that's a 2 for 2 result for me. -
05-14-2012, 08:25 PMtube fan
Three of my 4 favorite rooms at the CAS 2010 and 2011 shows were powered by SET amps: The Audio Note, the Teresonic, and the Sonist. My absolute favorite was the Sonist, but then they were playing analogue tapes as the source!