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Have you ever wanted to try tubes but too afraid...
Or worried over costs - Well it may be that Antique Sound Labs has a good not too expensive option that can drive most speakers, is built well and looks terrfic.
Lot's of posters here talk about a number of SS amps but I would like to throw this model into the light - It has subwoofer output remote control, excellent build quality and looks stunning to boot. I heard the older model which was very impressive so I figure for those of you who don't know about it may want to give it a try.
The model is the AQ 1003DT and here is a very current review - worth a listen against those NAD, Cambridge, Rotel, Bryston integrateds etc.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...slaq1003dt.htm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Or worried over costs - Well it may be that Antique Sound Labs has a good not too expensive option that can drive most speakers, is built well and looks terrfic.
Lot's of posters here talk about a number of SS amps but I would like to throw this model into the light - It has subwoofer output remote control, excellent build quality and looks stunning to boot. I heard the older model which was very impressive so I figure for those of you who don't know about it may want to give it a try.
The model is the AQ 1003DT and here is a very current review - worth a listen against those NAD, Cambridge, Rotel, Bryston integrateds etc.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...slaq1003dt.htm
It's a sweet little amp. I currently own the ASL Hurricane's and they drive my Maggies with aplomb!
I actually started out on tubes with just a tubed preamp and then once I listened to tubed power amps, I knew the SS had to go - and it's been gone ever since. The ASL's are my 3rd set of tubed power amps in that period - about 10 years. I've never been sorry and never looked backwards.
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They make very good and quite inexpensive amplifiers - I really think it's fun to try and listen to these kinds of amps (ditto for Jolida) against the usual suspects.
I'm soon going to buy the Audio Note OTO SE in about a month or earlier. This will actually be my first leap into tubes for stereo (Though I have a little Tube headophone amp from ASL). Incidentally it's going on 5 years and STILL on the stock tubes.
The kicker is the OTO uses the same EL 84's so I can start rolling right away. :D
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Nope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Or worried over costs - Well it may be that Antique Sound Labs has a good not too expensive option that can drive most speakers, is built well and looks terrfic.
Lot's of posters here talk about a number of SS amps but I would like to throw this model into the light - It has subwoofer output remote control, excellent build quality and looks stunning to boot. I heard the older model which was very impressive so I figure for those of you who don't know about it may want to give it a try.
The model is the AQ 1003DT and here is a very current review - worth a listen against those NAD, Cambridge, Rotel, Bryston integrateds etc.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...slaq1003dt.htm
No, not really interested in getting tubes. I've heard some nice music using tube amplification but not nicer than I get at home.
I have even heard my current speakers with tube amplification, a C-J model, and was not impressed with the results. I auditioned speakers using solid state amplification and I chose ones I liked. I have no need to try to fix up the sound with tube amps with a high output impedance.
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Not all tube amps are the same - I am not going to be drawn into tubes versus SS. Mythos about warmth, fuzzyness etc is often spread - my little experience with SET and PP tubes like ASL indicate no such adjectives.
Now on poorly designed speakers these results may occur but hey bad speakers can;t be blamed on the amps.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
They make very good and quite inexpensive amplifiers - I really think it's fun to try and listen to these kinds of amps (ditto for Jolida) against the usual suspects.
I'm soon going to buy the Audio Note OTO SE in about a month or earlier. This will actually be my first leap into tubes for stereo (Though I have a little Tube headophone amp from ASL). Incidentally it's going on 5 years and STILL on the stock tubes.
The kicker is the OTO uses the same EL 84's so I can start rolling right away. :D
Yeah, I was amazed at the quality/price ratio for the Hurricanes. I would have expected them to be double the cost. No solid state amp I've ever heard can touch these amps, although I've heard plenty of tube designs that do as well or better. The Audio Note is a great amp as well, just not suitable for the speakers I chose. I listened to a great many high efficiency speakers and just couldn't get past the "single" obnoxious coloration they all seemed to have. Note that I'm talking about horns and single driver designs with efficiency of upwards of 98 db/w/m. They all did one single thing really badly in the midst of all they did well and, to my ears, the one negative aspect outweighed the positives. Are you going to use the AN speakers? I've never auditioned them but I hear they are excellent. 92 or 93 db/w/m if my memory serves. Should work well with the amp - especially since the two were designed to serve one another! :D
You may not have seen my other post but I recently attempted to score a used AN DAC 3.1X but couldn't negotiate what I felt was the maximum amount it was worth as a used product. It's far and away the finest digital product I've ever heard. Realistic sounding music from a CD? I never thought it possible! It's reasonably close to good analog and that's saying something! I may audition one of their lesser DAC's or wait to see if a 3.1 becomes available pre-owned again.
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If anyone need to try tubes, all they need to do go to the local dealer that stocks both tubes and SS gear, and listen ;). Some will choose tubes and some will stick with SS, the idea that once a person listens to tubes, there is no going back to SS is laughable to say the least, the irony being that some SS gear might even drive high efficiency speakers better than the oft-recommended tube amplifiers.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
the idea that once a person listens to tubes, there is no going back to SS is laughable to say the least, the irony being that some SS gear might even drive high efficiency speakers better than the oft-recommended tube amplifiers.
I'll tell you what; I'll let you know if I ever go back to SS so you can laugh. Until then, it's a true statement. Further, I have yet to encounter a person who has owned a modern tube preamp or amp that has gone back to SS. Those people aren't laughing, either - unless it's out of joy! ;) And it would be far from an irony for an SS amp to drive a high efficiency speaker since watts are cheap with SS and you'd need fewer to drive a high efficiency speaker. They should "drive" the speaker better but will sound worse, IME.
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Actually TAH you're not far off - my dealer moved away from tubes way back because the speaker industry moved to non tube friendly speakers and as such tubes and low powered amps generally sufferred. They changed to SS. They picked up AN which solved the problem - but I doubt anyone can say that EVERY tube amp is better than ALL SS amps. I did choose my Sugden over the AQ 1003DT that I posted and that was after I had my tube headphone amp(and I bet the Sugden Headmaster is much better as well but it should be given the cost).
I don't really care about the design - I care about the results. This ASL amp offers great build very good sound for the money, more than enough power, and IMO looks cool and for not THAT expensive a price. A lot of good looking stuff is grossly overpriced and often poor sounding so this one seems to fire on all cylinders. Would I say it's better sounding than the $999.00US Audio Refinement Complete - well it's about a draw to me. But the extra $100.00US gets a chance to enjoy tubes better looks and the opportunity to get into tubes and the lore for not much of an entry fee. And it doubles as a space heater - which here in Canada is not a bad thing :D
As for power: The Maggies are pretty stable speakers and the AN amps have 4 ohm taps - Maggies don't do loud anyway really nor do they have much in the way of low end extension - SET and Electrostats make exceptional partners as Lynn Olsen confirms. Granted the OTO runs into serious trouble at the frequency extremes - but hey they tested it on Thiel loudspeakers which is like dropping a Ferrari in the ocean and whining that it doesn't drive fast.
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Musicoverall,
So because you have not personally met anyone who has "owned" a tube preamp or amplifier and gone back to solid state,it follows that all folks who have listened to tubes will stay true to tubes;), I think you should inform all those who have dumped their tube amps for Pannys, Teacs, Evos, Krells even the humble Sonic Impact etc of your experience. I respect your experience but it a'int universal. ;) :D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
As for power: The Maggies are pretty stable speakers and the AN amps have 4 ohm taps - Maggies don't do loud anyway really nor do they have much in the way of low end extension -
Yikes! Actually, the Maggies do loud better than soft! They tend to lose a touch of resolution when playing quietly - one of two minor problems I have with them. As for bass extension, they have usable bass down to about 25 hz - plenty of bass extension for my purposes.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Actually TAH you're not far off - my dealer moved away from tubes way back because the speaker industry moved to non tube friendly speakers and as such tubes and low powered amps generally sufferred. They changed to SS. They picked up AN which solved the problem - but I doubt anyone can say that EVERY tube amp is better than ALL SS amps.
Precisely, I have no doubt that you will like the OTO SE especially given its symbiotic relationship with the AN J. I understand why tubes appeal to some, but then again I also understand why SS appeals to others ;) .
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
I think you should inform all those who have dumped their tube amps for Pannys, Teacs, Evos, Krells even the humble Sonic Impact etc of your experience.
Well, I would if I could find any such person! :) Until then, I remain unconvinced that such a rare bird even exists. When sufficient evidence to the contrary presents itself, I'll be happy to change my tune... IF the change was due to sound and not some other reason.
The folks I know that use Krell, Levinson and the like usually do so because they need excessive amounts of power for their insensitive speakers or they're afraid of tubes. You'll need appropriate speakers to appreciate tubes or you'll need a lot of money! That's why the Hurricanes are so phenomenal - 200 wpc tubed monoblocks for $5K retail! I've wondered on occasion if I would have even bought the Maggie 20.1's I now own if I would have had to power them with SS. Happily, I don't have to answer that question! ;)
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Nothing wrong with having an insensitive speaker, if you like the sound of speakers that is it, isn't it? Needing appropriate speakers to 'appreciate' tubes seems to me like putting the cart before the horse.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Not all tube amps are the same - I am not going to be drawn into tubes versus SS. Mythos about warmth, fuzzyness etc is often spread - my little experience with SET and PP tubes like ASL indicate no such adjectives.
Now on poorly designed speakers these results may occur but hey bad speakers can;t be blamed on the amps.
Never said all tube amps have a high output impedance, only referred to those that do (which does seem to be most of them).
The lowest output impedance I recall in a tube amp was about .25 ohms, which is OK, but it was very expensive. It should sound just about the same as other amps with a low output impedance so I see no point in getting one. Solid state amps generally have an output impedance below 0.1 ohms. It seems most tube amps have an output impedance of between 1 and 10 ohms or so and this can cause audible variations in the frequency response into the varying impedance vs. frequency of most speaker loads. The effects will be different with different speakers so the desirability of these variations depends on which speakers are used.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
Precisely, I have no doubt that you will like the OTO SE especially given its symbiotic relationship with the AN J. I understand why tubes appeal to some, but then again I also understand why SS appeals to others ;) .
It really depends on the speaker - the exceptionally good Model Nautilus speaker from B&W (the shell or snail) I seriously doubt is going to like the OTO - then again the OTO can't drive it period. And I auditioned and liked that speaker with 8 or so Classes power amplifiers - hmm like to hear the Masterclass units running it.
SET isn't as practical there is no question of it - unfortunately systems are not listened to we componantelize(a new word) everything.
Take the NAD C372 which did very poorly in the blind listening test at Hi-fi choice - I find it odd some of their complaints and it's a bit unfair - simply may not have liked the speakers. I have a feeling the main reason AN speakers like SET has much to do with the tuning of the damping factor. Bryston was criticised in UHF magazine for overcontrolling a speaker's cone which can really make a speaker sound thin. For my Wharfedales which are a little sloppy the Bryston works wonders over the receiver I had. In AN's case a low amp damping factor may be envisioned which is perhaps why the Bryston is rendered unlistenable as are all other SS amps as they have huge damping numbers. UHF recommends against a damping factor above 40 likely due to the negative feedback issue. Regardless - my gripe is the unfair testing paramaters - I would not test a 2ohm speaker with 84db sensitivity and say gee the speaker has no bass and no treble if my testing amplifier was a 3 watts set. And I would expect the reverse to be the case.
Also lest not forget that amplifiers are more than just make it loud devices - SET's and and tube amps have various other advantages whcih current testers even admit they don;t have the tools to correlate - linearity - SET in particular measures better than ALL SS devices at the point of silence to the turn on point - SS measures worse as the level drops - look at where the amps are always measured.
Garbage in garbage out is still important - while speaker differences make the BIGGEST difference to frequency response - that does not mean it's the most important difference.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
Nothing wrong with having an insensitive speaker, if you like the sound of speakers that is it, isn't it? Needing appropriate speakers to 'appreciate' tubes seems to me like putting the cart before the horse.
Nothing wrong at all - it's just that you'll need a high powered tube amp, usually an expensive proposition. And possibly one that is stable into lower impedances.
People mate speakers to amps all the time! That's how the SET resurgence started. If you like the sound of SET, you'll need appropriate speakers. The problem is people claim that SET amps are bad because they try to drive an 84 db sensitive speaker that drops to 2.6 ohms all over the place with an 8 watt SET. As I said, you need appropriate speakers to appreciate tubes - or you need a lot of cash! Or you can buy the Hurricanes and get the best of both worlds! ;)
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I was impressed by tube amplifiers......
when listened acoustical instruments and vocals. The system was Thiel floorstanding, Lexicon player used as a preamp, and VTL tube monoblocks. Nothing wrong with this. The sound was terrific. I have never hear something like this on SS amplifiers. My dealer says tubes have more value when you are a classic music fan, I doesn't want to say they are bad rocking. VTL is expensive but I have been tempted with Rogue Audio which sometime you can find for a very good price. You should try RGA, probably you never come back to SS amplifiers.
Good Luck,
Jorge
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