Digital Amp for $500?

Does anyone know of any digital amps that are available out there that are a notch above the Sonic Impact T-amp ($20 @ ecost.com), but not in the unattainable price levels as the Yamaha MX-D1 or the D.A.C. 300.5? I was thinking in the $400-800 price range.

Actually that brings up another question. The T-amp is mass-produced for $20 and it compares favorably to much more expensive amps from well known companies in DBTs (lots of reviews online). So why do the MX-D1 and 300.5 cost $3-5K? I'm not saying there's no difference between the T-amp and these, but that's quite a premium for similar technology.

I think if there was a $500 high-power audiophile level amp out there, it would blow the market wide open. I know that Panasonic and Sharp have integrated and receiver type amps out there, but these low-power products aren't doing well in the marketplace. I wonder how a straight power amp for the hi-fi crowd would do out there instead...

There are many affordable Digital amplifiers out there on the market... PS Audio makes one called the PS Audio HCA-2, and their new one the GCA is more expensive. Then there are the Carver ZR amps.. which use Tripath technology similar to the Sonic Impacts. Then there are the Sony ES Receivers that use some sort of Hybrid Digital Amp, and all the JVC and Panasonic Digital Receivers that people rave about.

Some Digital amps will cost more because of the type of Digital technology they are using.. the Yamaha seems to use some sort of Proprietary technology. Some amps use the ICEpower modules made by Bang and Olufsen which cost quite a bit. Actually I have a friend who is developing an amp based on the Icepower Modules, and they will be quite affordable. Jeff Rowland uses Icepower chips in their digital amps as well. There are probably a bunch more out there, but these are the ones that I can think of.

I have a PS Audio HCA-2, and they sound very good. If you want something closer to the Sonic Impact, try the Carver ZR1000.. it is quite cheap and said to be very good, especially with mods.

Dunno about amps, but those little Panny receivers are quite the sweet sounding little unit and very affordable. I think my next receiver could be a digital one if the gadgets and inputs are present.

Give it time.

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Originally Posted by corwin99

There are many affordable Digital amplifiers out there on the market... PS Audio makes one called the PS Audio HCA-2, and their new one the GCA is more expensive. Then there are the Carver ZR amps.. which use Tripath technology similar to the Sonic Impacts. Then there are the Sony ES Receivers that use some sort of Hybrid Digital Amp, and all the JVC and Panasonic Digital Receivers that people rave about.

Some Digital amps will cost more because of the type of Digital technology they are using.. the Yamaha seems to use some sort of Proprietary technology. Some amps use the ICEpower modules made by Bang and Olufsen which cost quite a bit. Actually I have a friend who is developing an amp based on the Icepower Modules, and they will be quite affordable. Jeff Rowland uses Icepower chips in their digital amps as well. There are probably a bunch more out there, but these are the ones that I can think of.

I have a PS Audio HCA-2, and they sound very good. If you want something closer to the Sonic Impact, try the Carver ZR1000.. it is quite cheap and said to be very good, especially with mods.

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Corwin,

Thanks for the info. I didn't know the HCA-2 from PS-Audio was digital. It's still a bit pricey, though. The Carver is a bit more in the ballpark. The only thing I wonder, though, is if it is possible to get more watts out of a digital amp efficiently, why can't they do this at a more affordable price point. How about a 1000W amp for a good price (say $1K)

P.S. I heard that there were problems with the hybrid models and those that used Tripath (http://www.puredigitalaudio.org/digi...rs/index.shtml).

There are two types of digital topologies that I am aware of: Tripath and ICE. Tripath is used by Spectron, Bel Canto, Sonic Impact, Panny and I think Carver. ICE is used by Jeff Rowland, PS Audio (although they used to call it SDAT), and ARC.

You can find good digital amps for less than $1K, but just because it is a switching amp doesn't automatically make it less expensive to produce. Don't forget, because of their inherent design and efficiency, switching amps are very sensitive to power supplies and the purity of said power. This is one of the reasons that PS Audio built a Ultimate Outlet power conditioner into the HCA2 (an amp I also have and enjoy very much). You still have caps and other hi quality parts that need to be considered. As with any hi-end product, the ultimate price will come down two things:
1) Materials
2) Market
No one builds a 1 kilowatt amp for $1k because they don't have to. The market will gladly pay much more!

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Originally Posted by nightflier

Corwin,

Thanks for the info. I didn't know the HCA-2 from PS-Audio was digital. It's still a bit pricey, though. The Carver is a bit more in the ballpark. The only thing I wonder, though, is if it is possible to get more watts out of a digital amp efficiently, why can't they do this at a more affordable price point. How about a 1000W amp for a good price (say $1K)

P.S. I heard that there were problems with the hybrid models and those that used Tripath (http://www.puredigitalaudio.org/digi...rs/index.shtml).

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All of the related electronics that go into an amp; transformers, capacitors, MOSFET or bipolar transistors, would be pretty much the same for a Digital amp as a traditional one. A thousand watt amp would require much bigger, or more, of all of them so i doubt you would see one for $1000. Of course if you do want one, PS Audio sells one with 500wpc for $3995. That's quite a bargain compared to other 500wpc amps!

[QUOTE=topspeed]There are two types of digital topologies that I am aware of: Tripath and ICE. Tripath is used by Spectron, Bel Canto, Sonic Impact, Panny and I think Carver. ICE is used by Jeff Rowland, PS Audio (although they used to call it SDAT), and ARC.
...QUOTE]

There is a third, "traditional", non-proprietary digital approach, that is "pulse width modulation", PWM. I'm no expert but I think a major difference from Tripath and ICEpower is that it used a fixed sampling frequency from analog to digital, (i.e. switching rate), conversion were as the latter used a rate that varies with the musical content. (???)

I have heard people say that Panasonic XR units use Tripath, but I also heard others say that it uses a Texas Instruments chip. I'd like to know the truth: maybe some day I'll crack my XR25 receiver and see what's inside!

From what I hear, there is not inherently much saving in a digital amp. That is, for the given power output they require nearly equivalent power supplies, etc., to standard SS amps.

A nice advantage of Digital amps is that they are usually load invariant. You can present them with a 4ohm load, 8ohm load, 2ohm load (anything in reason) and they will provide the same amount of stability and voltage gain regardless of the speaker impedance. They also tend to have a very high damping factor.. I see the words of Dmason from Audio Circle echoing in my head :D

Anyone here that is interested in Digital and hasn't tried it should really consider grabbing a Sonic Impact and modding it up to see what a $40 amp can do!

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Originally Posted by Feanor

There is a third, "traditional", non-proprietary digital approach, that is "pulse width modulation", PWM. I'm no expert but I think a major difference from Tripath and ICEpower is that it used a fixed sampling frequency from analog to digital, (i.e. switching rate), conversion were as the latter used a rate that varies with the musical content. (???)

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All switching amps use PWM, regardless of topology. This is not bo be confused with Pulse Code Modulation (PCM) as used by cd players. I read an article that explained the difference between Tripath and ICE at one time, but I can't remember where and I'm too lazy to find it.

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I have heard people say that Panasonic XR units use Tripath, but I also heard others say that it uses a Texas Instruments chip. I'd like to know the truth: maybe some day I'll crack my XR25 receiver and see what's inside!

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They're the same thing. Tripath is based on TI technology.

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From what I hear, there is not inherently much saving in a digital amp. That is, for the given power output they require nearly equivalent power supplies, etc., to standard SS amps.

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Well, there are considerable saving to be had in relation to power consumption. Consider that Class A, and to a lesser extent Class A/B, amps consume energy even when not in use. Class A's in particular are notorious for frightening electrical bills and wasting a lot of that energy as heat. Switching amps consume no more than a night light when in standby and are around 90% efficient when in use. This is why they run so cool, even when driving tough loads at full tilt. Heat is a sure sign of inefficiency because it is simply wasted energy being burned off.

I know I'm a fanboy, but this PS Audio article explains switching amps better than anything else I've found. Stereophile also did a short article but this one is more in layman's terms in deference to, well...guy's like me :).

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Originally Posted by topspeed

All switching amps use PWM, regardless of topology. ...
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Tripath denies emphatically that they use standard PWM in their technology -- of course they do end up creating on/off switching instructions to the power transistors which is what PWM does too. See their white paper ...

http://www.tripath.com/downloads/an1.pdf

ICEpower discusses their approach here ..

http://www.medicom.bang-olufsen.com/sw1273.asp

Of course, you are right about digitals using less power overall.

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Originally Posted by corwin99

Anyone here that is interested in Digital and hasn't tried it should really consider grabbing a Sonic Impact and modding it up to see what a $40 amp can do!

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Cor,

I've been tempted with that $20 amp for a while now, but 15 watts is a little meager. Has anyone modded this amp to provide more power (by bridging multiple units together?). On my wish list:

- At least 60 watts
- digital input
- a nicer, more solid housing
- real speaker posts instead of clips

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Originally Posted by topspeed

All switching amps use PWM, regardless of topology

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Not so, some digital amplifiers use Sigma Delta Modulation, the Sharp 1-bit models are Sigma Delta Modulation with no PWM anywhere.

Sigma delta modulation for class D power amplifiers

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Originally Posted by nightflier

Cor,

I've been tempted with that $20 amp for a while now, but 15 watts is a little meager. Has anyone modded this amp to provide more power (by bridging multiple units together?). On my wish list:

- At least 60 watts
- digital input
- a nicer, more solid housing
- real speaker posts instead of clips

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The amp cannot be modded to provide more than 9WPC @ 4ohms... it only provides 6WPC at 8ohms... some have said it is closer to about 5WPC. This is inherent in the Tripath chip.. it simply doesn't do it. The best you could do is buy 2 of them and biamp.

With sufficiently sensitive speakers this is more than enough power especially in small rooms. I power a pair of 90db sensitive speakers to very loud levels in my 10x10 Den. I also powered a pair of Klipsch RB-5 MKII's with it.. (mind you they are 96db sensitive speakers).. in my large living room to very high levels... some might call it "stupid loud".

At $20 can you really go wrong? ;)

Thanks TAH, I stand corrected.

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Originally Posted by corwin99

The amp cannot be modded to provide more than 9WPC @ 4ohms... it only provides 6WPC at 8ohms... some have said it is closer to about 5WPC. This is inherent in the Tripath chip.. it simply doesn't do it. The best you could do is buy 2 of them and biamp.

With sufficiently sensitive speakers this is more than enough power especially in small rooms. I power a pair of 90db sensitive speakers to very loud levels in my 10x10 Den. I also powered a pair of Klipsch RB-5 MKII's with it.. (mind you they are 96db sensitive speakers).. in my large living room to very high levels... some might call it "stupid loud".

At $20 can you really go wrong? ;)

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OK that won't cut it for my favorite speakers, but I have a pair of RB-5's myself that I should probably dust off. Now how do you have these wired up? I presume you are driving the tweeters with one amp and the woofers with the other, but how are you feeding the signal from your preamp to the digital amps?

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Originally Posted by nightflier

OK that won't cut it for my favorite speakers, but I have a pair of RB-5's myself that I should probably dust off. Now how do you have these wired up? I presume you are driving the tweeters with one amp and the woofers with the other, but how are you feeding the signal from your preamp to the digital amps?

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I only have one Sonic Impact and it is Modded. Its not biamped... but if you had 2 of them you could vertically biamp like you mentioned. I really don't think you need more than one of these Sonic Impacts to light up those Klipschs... They will be fine with just one. I just have a Bottlehead Foreplay hooked up to the Sonic Impact, then the sonic impact out to my speakers. Keep in mind my SI is modded pretty heavily with big binding posts and RCAs and upgraded caps and the pot is removed and other things.

OK, I found a T-amp second hand for $9.99 and I'm going to buy it. But I want to continue this dicussion because I think it is an important topic.

The PS Audio HCA-2 can be had for $700 second hand. It puts out 150W @ 8 ohm. The T-amp can be had for $9.99 second hand and puts out 5W @ 8 ohm.

HCA-2 = ~ 4.6 $/W ($700/150)
T-amp = ~ 2 $/W ($10/5W)

I know it's not fair to weigh W/$ like that, but competition in the marketplace will do that anyhow. So following through with this logic, surely there must be something that puts out let's say 60-80W for about $300.

And what about 5.1? Where should a simple amp with only a digital input and five speaker outputs fall in terms of price?

P.S. Speaking of digital inputs, how does the HCA-2 handle input via the analog RCA's?

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Originally Posted by nightflier

OK, I found a T-amp second hand for $9.99 and I'm going to buy it. But I want to continue this dicussion because I think it is an important topic.

The PS Audio HCA-2 can be had for $700 second hand. It puts out 150W @ 8 ohm. The T-amp can be had for $9.99 second hand and puts out 5W @ 8 ohm.

HCA-2 = ~ 4.6 $/W ($700/150)
T-amp = ~ 2 $/W ($10/5W)

I know it's not fair to weigh W/$ like that, but competition in the marketplace will do that anyhow. So following through with this logic, surely there must be something that puts out let's say 60-80W for about $300.

And what about 5.1? Where should a simple amp with only a digital input and five speaker outputs fall in terms of price?

P.S. Speaking of digital inputs, how does the HCA-2 handle input via the analog RCA's?

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For around $300 you have the Panasonic and JVC Digital Receivers which use the same tripath technology.

There is no digital inputs on the HCA-2, it only has Analog inputs... the digital part in the amplification.

GTG!

Nelson

Ah, yes but the Panasonic and JVC models are not amps, they are receivers. My goal is to find an unfettered, simplified and more high-end unit w/o all the other stuff that Panasonic and JVC are throwing in. By the way, I have not seen these second hand anywhere. Does anyone know what they run on the street or second hand?

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Originally Posted by corwin99

There is no digital inputs on the HCA-2, it only has Analog inputs... the digital part in the amplification.

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OK, the HCA-2 is a hybrid amp, so the topic doesn't really apply.

But wouldn't it be the case that the best possible scenario would be a completely digital path to the amp? A universal player would send the pure digital signal through the preamp's digital in-outs and onto the amp's digital inputs. This would work perfectly for 5.1 channels as well. The amp would then have the task of sending this signal onto the speaker terminals and do the digital-analog conversion at the end of the chain, right? (I hope I'm not oversimplifying this).

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Originally Posted by nightflier

...
But wouldn't it be the case that the best possible scenario would be a completely digital path to the amp? A universal player would send the pure digital signal through the preamp's digital in-outs and onto the amp's digital inputs. This would work perfectly for 5.1 channels as well. The amp would then have the task of sending this signal onto the speaker terminals and do the digital-analog conversion at the end of the chain, right? (I hope I'm not oversimplifying this).

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There is always a conversion ahead of the power stage of a "digital" amp. It might be analog to switching instructions, (i.e. PWM, Tripath, or ICEpower). Or it might be digital to switching, but there is conversion in either case. PS Audio and Bel Canto are both only analog to switching, but I'm told that there is equipment that does PCM to switching. I think there is an ICEpower product that does this ...
http://www.medicom.bang-olufsen.com/sw1059.asp

However I haven't hear of DSD to switching if it exists.

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Originally Posted by corwin99

I only have one Sonic Impact and it is Modded. Its not biamped... but if you had 2 of them you could vertically biamp like you mentioned. I really don't think you need more than one of these Sonic Impacts to light up those Klipschs... They will be fine with just one. I just have a Bottlehead Foreplay hooked up to the Sonic Impact, then the sonic impact out to my speakers. Keep in mind my SI is modded pretty heavily with big binding posts and RCAs and upgraded caps and the pot is removed and other things.

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Cor,

Did you change from the plastic enclosure to a custom built-one? If not, how did you get thos binding posts secured on the plastic housing?

I have recently purchased a custom made IcePower amp.
It is a stereo dual ASP1000 (2x1000W) monster.
It is built by a great guy in Denmark.
I highly recommend him and his products..
The prices are roughly 50% cheaper than any other IcePower based product I have tested and checked...
For more info:
Søren Bertram - Bertram Audio
Lundevej 33 - 4800 Nykøbing F.
tel: (0045) 54 82 24 45
bertrams@mail.dk
www.audiokabel.dk

Soeren is extremely helpful and he custom build amps and cables...
The web site is mostly in Danish; the 2 amps models he builds are "Beast" and "Ghost"

Amazing sound, amazing price and great guy.

Mik