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  1. #1
    Suspended superpanavision70mm's Avatar
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    Classe or Krell?

    Ok folks...I know everyone loves a showdown. I'd love to hear thoughts on these two manufacturers in regards to their amps...I am thinking about going with one of them...no particular model has jumped out at me just yet....it could be a newer or vintage model. Let the thoughts begin....

  2. #2
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Neither!

    The only good Classe AMP i know is the DR3VHC which was developed for the Apogee Scinitlla. The only good Krells i know are the original KSA 50, KSA 100 and the KSA 80 exept for the KRS and RS series. You need to know what speakers you want first, then their impedance responce across the entire bandwidth and their character.

    Others i can recommend are

    Einstein
    Silvaweld
    Sphinx
    Usher
    Ampzilla
    Conrad Johnson (old tubes)
    Audio Research (10 and below)
    Pathos
    Mark Levinson No.27
    Kora
    Goldmund
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  3. #3
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Neither!

    The only good Classe AMP i know is the DR3VHC which was developed for the Apogee Scinitlla. The only good Krells i know are the original KSA 50, KSA 100 and the KSA 80 exept for the KRS and RS series. You need to know what speakers you want first, then their impedance responce across the entire bandwidth and their character.

    Others i can recommend are

    Einstein
    Silvaweld
    Sphinx
    Usher
    Ampzilla
    Conrad Johnson (old tubes)
    Audio Research (10 and below)
    Pathos
    Mark Levinson No.27
    Kora
    Goldmund
    I agree but like to add

    Unison Research
    Art Audio
    Manley

    Man you have got some choice. Happy hunting.

    Peace

    Bernd
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  4. #4
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    I disagree, all Krell amps are excellent. Some better than others, you have to meet price points, but all good.

    Flo, I ignored you when you said Krell wouldn't drive your Apogees but either you didn't have a Krell or there was another problem. Krell has the current and drive to push anything. Krell's sound may not be your cup of tea but it don't make it a bad amp. If it had any problem at all driving something you must have been limiting it's power by using a conditioner or some other problem. I've heard them drive some ridiculous difficult loads and not even waver. Your lights may dim but the Krell will drive the mess out of whatever you hook it to.

    I've heard several Classe and Krell. I personally wouldn't keep one of the new Classe if some one gave it to me. It has the dryest dead sound of any amp I've heard. The sound was like the system was being played in a room with all surfaces covered with thick carpet. It was an all Omega driving B&W D series. I was really at a lose why anyone would design something to sound like that. I also asked myself the same question when I auditioned an ARC pre & power on my system. To me it sounded gray and industrial or mechanical, that's the only way I can describe it.

    Krell is able to give the dynamics and impact of a live show. I've heard nothing that makes a drum sound more live than a Krell. Both Classe and Krell would lack the dimensionality of tubes. I was talking to a guy who had a Conrad-Johnson MV60 tube amp for sell because he bought some large Thiels. He also bought a very powerful Classe amp to drive them. Last I checked he was selling the Classe and looking for another MV60 so he could convert them mono for more power. But, your question was not tube vs solid state.

    I'd choose Krell over Classe but if you find a good deal on vintage Classe they are still pretty good.

  5. #5
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I disagree, all Krell amps are excellent. Some better than others, you have to meet price points, but all good.

    Flo, I ignored you when you said Krell wouldn't drive your Apogees but either you didn't have a Krell or there was another problem. Krell has the current and drive to push anything.

    I've heard several Classe and Krell. I personally wouldn't keep one of the new Classe if some one gave it to me. It has the dryest dead sound of any amp I've heard.

    Krell is able to give the dynamics and impact of a live show. I've heard nothing that makes a drum sound more live than a Krell.

    I'd choose Krell over Classe but if you find a good deal on vintage Classe they are still pretty good.
    To your first point, not all Krells sound good. In fact the new ones suck!

    Secondly, the Apogee Scinitlla has a impedance of 0.5 to 1.1ohms and it killed the Krell KSA 80, KSA 150 and even the 250 struggles with it. And those are heaps and bounds above the 500i. Your 500i would die on the Scinitlla in less then 1 minute and clip constantly on my DIVA. If you want to try, come on over. End of story! Ask Krell if the new FPB series can handle the 1ohm Scinitlla, and the answere is no!

    The new Krells, same as many old ones are NOT class A, they are heavily BIASED towards Class A and switch to AB after 50 watts.

    Krell has some of the most dead, unlive sound there is and lacks micro and macro dynamics, shading textures and the correct tonal balance compared to great amps.

    If you love Krell then maybe you want to buy my Krell Reference 64 DAC (the best Krell made) and the Krell 64 DAC? I have two here for sale. Let me know :-)
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  6. #6
    Suspended superpanavision70mm's Avatar
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    How much for the Krell Ref. DAC?

  7. #7
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superpanavision70mm
    How much for the Krell Ref. DAC?
    This is the largest and most expensive Krell DAC, two piece and latest edition. I am looking for 4000EUR incl. shipping to the US in a crate. Hit me up on PM and i can give you a call. I have many interesting items. New price is around 30K retail when it was released.

    -Flo

    PS: I also sell the 64 DAC...90% of the reference for 2.2K
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  8. #8
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    Well, whether Krell sucks is a matter of opinion. I've had Krell fans swear the new stuff is awesome. I have an invitation to the premier of the Evolution stuff but haven't heard it yet. You're absolutely wrong when you say Krell is dead sounding. My C-J gear kills my Krell in micro and macro dynamics and I enjoy that more that's why C-J is in my main system. However, I have never owned an amp that is capable of delivering the slam of a crescendo like Krell. How can you say Krell sound is dead when it is fully capable of letting you feel bass punch in your gut and the high end is extended without being over baring? Yes, it's different than your tubes but I've yet to hear tubes that can slam like Krell, so it's a matter of what one is wanting from their music.

    Martin Logan's electrostatic panels dip below 1 ohm and Krell drives them without breaking a sweat. You may think it's end of story but I know there is more to it. I've seen Krell drive a variety of speakers and nothing has bothered it. We've had brands like T+A go into protection and dropped a Krell in it's place and it drive the crap out of the speakers. A pair of 250 watt Krell monoblocks drove the $80k Dynaudio Evidence to very clear pristine rock concert levels and produce low end bass like I have never felt before. A guy had a CD with a supposed 18Hz symth note, I don't know if that was reproduced but the bass I felt nearly made me sick to my stomach because it felt like it was going right through my body.

    I don't need your DAC unless you give me an offer I can't refuse. I have a Krell 280cd which is a fine CD player but I'm using it as a transport into an Audio Note DAC. The AN is much more organic. The Krell DAC has a larger soundstage and a few more sound benefits but in A/B I tend to enjoy the organic sound of the AN better. So I know tubes but I also give credit where it is due and Krell isn't nothing but some of the finest solid state power around.

  9. #9
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Well, whether Krell sucks is a matter of opinion.. How can you say Krell sound is dead when it is fully capable of letting you feel bass punch in your gut and the high end is extended without being over baring?

    Yes, it's different than your tubes but I've yet to hear tubes that can slam like Krell, so it's a matter of what one is wanting from their music.

    Martin Logan's electrostatic panels dip below 1 ohm and Krell drives them without breaking a sweat. You may think it's end of story but I know there is more to it.

    I've seen Krell drive a variety of speakers and nothing has bothered it. We've had brands like T+A go into protection and dropped a Krell in it's place and it drive the crap out of the speakers. A pair of 250 watt Krell monoblocks drove the $80k Dynaudio Evidence to very clear pristine rock concert levels and produce low end bass like I have never felt before.

    I don't need your DAC unless you give me an offer I can't refuse. I have a Krell 280cd which is a fine CD player but I'm using it as a transport into an Audio Note DAC. The AN is much more organic.
    Good lord you have no experience and it clearly shows.

    First off, you speak of "Krells" which complete garbage. There are many Krells and yours for instance is a baby and i dont even consider that a Krell. Its a commerical product made to support their bizz and not raise any bar.

    Secondly i am not talking about "dips", i am talking about 1ohm impedance. Always, permanent!! I killed my KSA 150 on the Apogee Scinitlla. Do you understand? DEAD!!!

    If your tube amp has no power and slam then its not a tube problem, but a design problem. I did switch back to SS, but not Krell eventough i have no problem in buying a fat Krell again.

    Thirdly, the Krell 64 Reference and the Krell 64 are no little organic audio note dacs, they are true high end and the end of the realm costing more 20 times of the Audio Note and come in 2 chassys. I dont need to make any offer, these products are sought after. There is no "deal" to get here.!! Your 500i has a smaller power supply then the DAC....

    I had many Krells and have PERSONAL experience with them, so dont come butting in about your Martin Logan heresay or generalisation of Krell.

    -Flo

    PS: The Dynaudio evidence is no problem for a amp and you seem to missunderstand the difference between bass texture, extension, color, volumeness, decay and simpe slam!
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  10. #10
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    Aah..... well, we are so proud of you for your experience. What I am able to afford and what I have experience with are 2 different things. If your ego wasn't so big you can't comprehend, you could tell from what I write that I do have some experience as well with Krell. I have heard pretty much all they have had to offer for several years. Your 64 must be pretty old, I actually have not seen one of those.

    I guess no one should have a difference of opinion with the God of high end audio. You want I should build an altar to you?

    I still think he crossed some wires to blow up his Krell. Hmmmm. did I say that or just think it? Oh well, he's a god he heard it either way, sorry. Damn, there goes more stuff to sacrafice.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    LOL....

    you never saw one because you have NO CLUE, they are the biggest Krell DACS and are on Stereophile Class A recommended. They are the biggest Krell Legends there are.

    Now shut up and dont bother the GOD of True High Fidelity.

    And on a side note, its not my fault you have no idea about resistance, efficency and the design of the Krell amps. The bottom line is this, the KSA 150 was TOO WEAK and TOO unstable to handle the Scinitlla.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  12. #12
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    Just for discussion sake, TAS and Stereophile both show the Diva doesn't dip below 2.7 ohms. Both articles give Krell as a suggested muscle to drive it and infact, the writer for Stereophile used a KMA-100 to drive the Diva for his review. Yes, you said the Scintilla, however, Hi Fi Choice review of the Scintilla confirmed that the Scintilla did "dip" below 1 ohm with a nominal impedance of 4 ohms, they drove them with a KSA-100, hmmmm. Although they did say the 200 monoblocks did a better job, but still Krell mind you. No matter what article or review I found Krell was synonymous with driving Apogee. Any one who reads this can verify for themselves and will know who speaks from experience and who is full of themselves.

  13. #13
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    For your Pea sized Brain, i will split it up.

    The Scinitlla came in 2 versions, the 1ohm version and the 4ohm version. The 4ohm version was discontinued after a year and only the 1ohm version exists.

    FACT: It killed the Krell KSA-150......END of Story
    Fact2: If you drive the Apogee active, the midrange is 0.3ohms....any questions?

    Fact3 for Pea Brains: The DIVAs ST drops to 2.2ohms and is 0.2ohms actively driven. The DIVA is designed for active use.

    Questions?
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  14. #14
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    Well, the more you talk Flo the more convinced I become that you are a big bag of hot air. Maybe you should research your own gear. Fact, The lower impedance Apogees came first and each year after a cheaper priced version came out with more stable impedance. It's published that the Diva impedance curve is stable from 2.7 to 4.5 ohms. I'm sure the writers and reviewers of TAS and Stereophile don't know as much as you but if they could drive their Scintillas with a KSA-100 and you blew your 150 up, it may just be me but I'm inclined to think you don't know what the hell you are doing. You might fool all the newbies around here and I'm sure that's why you are here but don't make the mistake that everyone here is totally un-informed. You can insult me all you want but that don't changed the fact that you are wrong. You need to just shut up to prevent damage control. Let's think about it, you expect me and every one who might read this that you know more and have the facts over every single published review I could find, which each one contradicts what you say. Your big mistake is you think because some one don't have the top of the line they don't know anything, I know my **** when it comes to Krell and I showed you are full of it.

    I fully believe you blew up your amp BUT I don't for one second even consider it was due to the Scintilla's impedance.

  15. #15
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Well, the more you talk Flo the more convinced I become that you are a big bag of hot air. Maybe you should research your own gear. Fact, The lower impedance Apogees came first and each year after a cheaper priced version came out with more stable impedance. It's published that the Diva impedance curve is stable from 2.7 to 4.5 ohms. I'm sure the writers and reviewers of TAS and Stereophile don't know as much as you but if they could drive their Scintillas with a KSA-100 and you blew your 150 up, it may just be me but I'm inclined to think you don't know what the hell you are doing. You might fool all the newbies around here and I'm sure that's why you are here but don't make the mistake that everyone here is totally un-informed. You can insult me all you want but that don't changed the fact that you are wrong. You need to just shut up to prevent damage control. Let's think about it, you expect me and every one who might read this that you know more and have the facts over every single published review I could find, which each one contradicts what you say. Your big mistake is you think because some one don't have the top of the line they don't know anything, I know my **** when it comes to Krell and I showed you are full of it.

    I fully believe you blew up your amp BUT I don't for one second even consider it was due to the Scintilla's impedance.

    Oh man your full of it. A typical Stereophile reader!

    Do you see this?



    And do you see this?




    Ok then, we are on the same page. Now do you know what this is?




    Now let me go over to my DIVAS and measure the ribbons........tap tap tap tap.....oh the super tweeter shows 0.2 ohms...

    mmmh....maybe the Peabrain knows something....let me walk over to the midrange...


    taptaptaptaptap.....oh its 0.7ohm...

    If you drive it active, your amp hooks up DIRECTLY to it....what will happen with the Krell you ask?

    Well, this....




    Read the release of Stereoplay in 91 where it shows the DIVA do 2.2 ohms above 10K....then shut your jap and go to the Scintilla Graph from Ken Kessler and see the 0.4 to 1.2ohm impedance and the FACT that Krell had to modify their amps to run the Scintilla.

    Now running and DRIVING the Scintilla are VERY different. And the KSA 150 died from FAILURE....the LOAD was too tough!!!!

    Period...you dont know **** about Krell, neither about their BIASING and the fact that they are not CLASS -A!!!!! after 50 watts....and your 500i is a joke Krell......get used to it
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  16. #16
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Maybe you should write my friend who killed the KSA 250 on the Scinitlla! Or ask the other guys why they use Digital AMPs or Classe DR3-VHC's on theirs which was specilly build for the Scinitlla....

    and if you short the wires on your baby Krell you will get the protection circuit kick in. If it dies, it dies from beeing overdriven.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  17. #17
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Your 500i gets this comment on a B&W Nautilus 802

    Source=http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/archive/perl/623_printreview.htm

    Conclusion
    It's possible that the less than easy load presented by the N802s gave this Krell some trouble, but at a specified 250 Watts that shouldn't have been the case. I can only surmise that it has been designed with somewhat less critical applications in mind.
    LOL...thats a joke load compared to an Apogee, let alone a Scinitlla....
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  18. #18
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Is that what I think it is?...

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Oh man your full of it.
    Ok then, we are on the same page. Now do you know what this is?

    ...A VOM to measure speaker impedance?

    jimHJJ(...just wunnerin'...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  19. #19
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...A VOM to measure speaker impedance?

    jimHJJ(...just wunnerin'...)
    Yes, in active configuration you just use a multimeter and measure the resistance of the ribbons :-) No parts between, the amps run them directly. Well, not the Krell exept the KRS series (a billion times bigger and more powerfull then a 250 etc...)
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  20. #20
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    Does One Really Need This Extravagant Equipment?

    I love listening to music but would never spend that kind of money for gear just to listen to tunes. I would rather spend the money on a down payment on income property!

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