Class D Amp

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Bill, I think that you will get more transparency with a tube preamp. At least that has been my experience with my limited expereince with tube preamps and tube DAC's. I am going to get the Little Dot and roll some better tubes in it. I doubt that it will replace my AVA preamp but it will go to good use in one of my other systems- MMG's in my basement and work out area or my Monitor Audio S1's in my bedroom. It will probably be with my MMG's. I am planning to buy another Maverick to use as a tube DAC/Pre with that Dayton DTA-100a amp that I am using with my Monitor Audio's.

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The definition of "transparency" is key here.

Indeed, I have a tube preamp, my Sonic Frontiers Line 1, that I used for months with the SDS-258. The SF adds an increased "ambiance" (as I refer to it): a sense of greater depth or reverberance perhaps. (The SF is tonally neutral and adds none of the warmth often associated with tube pres.)

However this "ambiance" is not synonymous with "transparency" as I use the term. To me transparency is a combination of fine resolution plus the separation of instruments and voices in the soundstage -- some call this "air". Actually the "air" part is crucial because people some times confused the "etched" sound of some, mostly s/s, equipment which is not really the same as fine detail.

So while my SF preamp adds "ambiance", it doesn't add "air" or transparency. I consider that ambiance to be an artifact and that's why I when to a passive preamp, the Jolida, which is nothing but a decent quality potentiometer.

I agree with you Bill. What I have found with my limited experience with tube preamps and tube DAC's, mainly Van Alstine full tube and hybrid tube gear and the Maverick is that they add both air and transparency.
When I compared the AVA T-8 fully tube preamp vs his solid state pre and my current hybrid AVA pre, I found the T-8 and hybrid to have much more air, transparency and wider sound stage than the SS. The hybrid had the most air and transparency along with the widest sound stage but the T-8 was close behind. The T-8 had the warmest sound. I did not buy the T-8 because of slightly less bass and slightly rolled treble. I regret not buying it now.

All this proves is that air and transparency is dependent upon the type of gear you have. One other note, I have found that roling tubes can make a huge difference in both air and transparency. I have about 7 different brands of C6G7 tubes and they all sound different.

Ajani, what preamp and speaks will you be using? I found the CDA amp to be ever so slightly on the sunny side of neutral.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

I agree with you Bill. What I have found with my limited experience with tube preamps and tube DAC's, mainly Van Alstine full tube and hybrid tube gear and the Maverick is that they add both air and transparency.
When I compared the AVA T-8 fully tube preamp vs his solid state pre and my current hybrid AVA pre, I found the T-8 and hybrid to have much more air, transparency and wider sound stage than the SS. The hybrid had the most air and transparency along with the widest sound stage but the T-8 was close behind. The T-8 had the warmest sound. I did not buy the T-8 because of slightly less bass and slightly rolled treble. I regret not buying it now.

All this proves is that air and transparency is dependent upon the type of gear you have. One other note, I have found that roling tubes can make a huge difference in both air and transparency. I have about 7 different brands of C6G7 tubes and they all sound different.

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Yep, true that air & transparency depend on the equipment. That's why I base my impressions on passive versus whatever else, since passive is as closs to no equipment as you can get.

Passives can lack dynamics but not so in my present setup. I suppose because I have good impedence matches and short cables.

Agree that tube rolling does make a difference as I found with my SF. The best tubes I found for it are Amperex US-made, white label, 'PQ' 6922's -- warmer and with more of the aforementioned ambiance than others I tried.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Ajani, what preamp and speaks will you be using? I found the CDA amp to be ever so slightly on the sunny side of neutral.

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Benchmark DAC1 as DAC/Pre and Revel M22 speakers...

That is not the first time I have heard these amps compared to very expensive amps and most of the time the Class D's win or it seems they do. If they are like the Nuforce amps I probably will like them since I like their preamp very much and with their price they are a steal in the world of high end audio. If I have to buy a case to put the circuits in and wire it myself then oh well I think it will be fun since it has been a while since I have had my hands on a electrical component build. My Debit card is itching in my wallet wanting to just order the SDS 258 and forget about it but I am getting married next month and have some other thing going right now but after things settle down I think I am going to order one and retire my Adcom to rear speaker duty since it is getting older.

Ajani, if you decide to get the SDS-470 kit, this company makes a nice aluminum case for about $65 depending upon the size. I've seen pictures or a completed case on the Audio Circles forum.

Par-Metal

I am going to order a 12x12x5 or 16x12x5 clear anodized case. You can also get them in Black.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Ajani, if you decide to get the SDS-470 kit, this company makes a nice aluminum case for about $65 depending upon the size. I've seen pictures or a completed case on the Audio Circles forum.

Par-Metal

I am going to order a 12x12x5 or 16x12x5 clear anodized case. You can also get them in Black.

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I'll just buy the completed SDS-470 amp from Class D Audio... I'd prefer not to have to assemble it myself...

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Originally Posted by Ajani

Benchmark DAC1 as DAC/Pre and Revel M22 speakers...

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Wow! How you liking the M22's? They are on my short list.

In the end I will have a shootout with the M22' and a set of Vento's 820 I suppose.

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

Wow! How you liking the M22's? They are on my short list.

In the end I will have a shootout with the M22' and a set of Vento's 820 I suppose.

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I'll let you know when I get them... I strongly suspect that the DAC1/SDS470/M22 combo is the kind of sound I'm looking for.... + it will be easy to move whenever I migrate again...

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Anjani, the SDS-470 is basically 2x254's in one chassi. I would go for the 470 just for the added power and dynamics. You never know what speakers you may end up with in the future. The added power may come in handy.

I just place the Parasound back in the loop and it definetly has a more musical, warmer midrange with more depth but it is not as transparent. It's a trade off. I like both amps. I still prefer the A21 but there are many things I prefer about the CDA-254. I think at the prices that the Class D amps are being offerred it is a no brainer. And pairing them with a tube pre will certainly improve the midrange. I am I going to buy a Little Dot MKIII tube preamp to try with the amp. My son's Maverick Tube pre certainly warms up the midrange. I think the Little Dot with 4 tubes will be better than the Maverick with one tube.

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Just set up my new SDS 470C with my KEF LS50's, using my Monarchy M24 Tube DAC / LS.

The sound is very much as you describe - great in all respects, especially the mids, soundstage and imaging.

But... I don't find the bass to be quite as fast, tight, clean, detailed and resolved as you suggest (or I'd expected), and I dont' find the highs to be quite as bright, clear, detailed and resolved as I'd expected.

Overall the amp has a warm, rich, tube-like, mids oriented sound... but... is not quite as clear and crisp as I had expected... and the bass seems just a slight bit rich (which is not expected from small monitors).

Should I expect burn in to tighten and brighten everything up a bit???

Let the amp burn in. I find the bass to be very tight and fast but I am using it with Magnepan speakers. The bass is at least as fast as my parasound halo A21 amp. Treble is different with digital amps in my limited experience. In fact, I had to put a resistor in my tweeters tone down the treble slightly. I would not call it rolled off. The amp will expose the limits of your system if the rest off your system is not on the same level.

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Originally Posted by Gradofan

Just set up my new SDS 470C with my KEF LS50's, using my Monarchy M24 Tube DAC / LS.

The sound is very much as you describe - great in all respects, especially the mids, soundstage and imaging.

But... I don't find the bass to be quite as fast, tight, clean, detailed and resolved as you suggest (or I'd expected), and I dont' find the highs to be quite as bright, clear, detailed and resolved as I'd expected.

Overall the amp has a warm, rich, tube-like, mids oriented sound... but... is not quite as clear and crisp as I had expected... and the bass seems just a slight bit rich (which is not expected from small monitors).

Should I expect burn in to tighten and brighten everything up a bit???

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Apart from some burn-in which might be helpful, I would suspect the Monarchy M24 is obscuring some of the crispness and detail. I haven't owned the Monarchy M24, but I do know that the Monarchy is a device is that is endorsed by people, (e.g. Morricab at AudioAsylum), who prefer smoothness & warmth over maximum resolution. Tubes will frequently color and mask the sound. This could be a case of bad component synergy.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

Apart from some burn-in which might be helpful, I would suspect the Monarchy M24 is obscuring some of the crispness and detail. I haven't owned the Monarchy M24, but I do know that the Monarchy is a device is that is endorsed by people, (e.g. Morricab at AudioAsylum), who prefer smoothness & warmth over maximum resolution. Tubes will frequently color and mask the sound. This could be a case of bad component synergy.

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Well... I installed my DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core to analyze and correct the room acoustics... and... that cleared everything up - just seemed to be some poor room acoustics.

The Monarchy DAC / LS is pretty neutral and has great resolution, though the tubes do warm everything up a tad. It's more neutral and has better resolution than my Marantz SA-8001 SACD, which has a bit of a warm tone to it. And... this is tested with my Grado PS1000's and RS-1's, which are very revealing - moreso than any speakers available - because they eliminate the room acoustics. I was expecting the sound somewhat similar to those - it's now much closer.

I did try the Burson Soloist (all SS) before I tried the Monarchy, and it produced much the same sound - actually a little warmer, much like a Marantz.

Though, I would note that when I use DSPeaker as a pre-amp, it also helps to clear the signal up a bit - it's not as warm. Ultimately, I may get a SS pre-amp to make it as clear as possible. I used the Monarchy, because I expected a class D amp and the LS50's to be a bit cold and bright, which neither are.

I have some pretty great expectations of this combo - since a friend who has heard / had about every great set up there is reported that the with good electronics, the LS50's with the R400b sub, sound better than the Maggie 3.7's - a pretty high standard. We'll see.

Also - how are the gain adjustments on the back pannel used?

1. To correct imbalances between channels?

2. To adjust for low output from a source or pre-amp?

3. To adjust to the minimum or maximum power output of the 470C (i.e. to achieve the maximum 300 watts into 8 ohms do they need to be set to max gain)?

4. All of the above?

How are they used, and what are the cautions in using them?

I wish this amp had a manual... but... then I suppose they're intended for "technical" users.

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Originally Posted by Gradofan

Also - how are the gain adjustments on the back pannel used?

1. To correct imbalances between channels?

2. To adjust for low output from a source or pre-amp?

3. To adjust to the minimum or maximum power output of the 470C (i.e. to achieve the maximum 300 watts into 8 ohms do they need to be set to max gain)?

4. All of the above?

How are they used, and what are the cautions in using them?

I wish this amp had a manual... but... then I suppose they're intended for "technical" users.

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I would set the gain to max. and adjust them down if too loud at a low volume setting on your preamp. Gain controls are basically like a volume control on an amp.My Parasound A21 has them. They help with impedence mismatch between the preamp and amp. Read this-

Amplifier gain controls - setting your gain

If you have any uestions about the amp, Email Tom the owner of Class D audio, he usually responds in 12-48 hours.