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  1. #26
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    Thanks Mr. P. I found out about the T+A from Stereophiles' recommended components list and then did a bit of research on them. I still need to do more research to narrow down the list but I'm finding it hard to tell where each amp. sits with respect to comparing sound quality. Many of those on the list seem to have equally good reviews but they are priced differently. I know that more often than not the price will give an indication of which has better sound quality; however, what I am trying to do is get the best bang for my buck. At the same time though, I don't just want to get a good amp for a low price and miss out on a really good amp at a medium price. Also, I want to ensure I don't just decide on what amp is the best by just chosing which has the highest price tag, as that doesn't always guarantee you get the best. The amps I've listed generally range from about $1200-$4000 and I am willing to spend up to $3000 to try to get the best possible (i.e. I would expect to find amps that are > $3000 new should be priced within my limit in the used market). So far the amps which interest me the most are the Sim Audio Moon i.5 or i.5.3 ; Prima Luna Dialogue Two ; Xindak A600E ; LFD integrated Zero MKIII ; Ayre Acoustics Ax7e ; Luxman L-505 and Creek Audio Destiny. Not far behind are the Musical Fidelity A-5, NAD Master Series M3, Krell S300i, Parasound Halo a21 and Xindak V30. Now with more research, I may be switching my preferences around. It's a tough choice and I know I'll have to narrow my choices down to about 2 or 3 candidates and then take the plunge on the one that may be the best deal at the time. Then, once I have experience with it I can keep it if I like the sound or sell and purchase something else until I find one that suits my needs best. I think my problem is the fact that I don't have that experience. As an example I have no clue what the difference between a signature Krell sound is vs. a signature Parasound sound is. I know that's generalizing quite a bit, as I know not all Parasounds sound the same and all Krells sound alike but I think you know what I'm getting at. It would help me if I could get a number of people letting me know what they think the best 3 or 4 amps would be in terms of sound quality and then I can research a bit more and finalize my choices. I know there's some subjectivity around the choices but I just want to ensure I get something that has great detail, soundstage and imaging and good dynamics while ensuring the sound is smooth and never harsh but I don't want a warm sounding amp that will lack finess, dynamics and detail. I guess I would like something that would be ever so slightly on the warm side of neutral. I would like an amp that sounds as natural as possible and I don't necessarily need the dynamics you'd get with Emo XPA-1's or Parasound JC1's but I do want to have something that portrays life like performances and be able to turn up to respectable levels (I know that's subjective; but as an example my Emo XPA3 at approx. 250 wpc in 2ch has great dynamics that would most likely exceed what I expect from a dedicated 2ch setup that I would like to purchase). Thanks again.

  2. #27
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    devuonoste...If you want a smooth warm system that's not boring, then I would give the Marantz reference gear or the Musical Fidelity a listen. Both have great mids and rhythm, but I must say the Musical Fidelity has this synergy to the music have not really heard in other gear. It has great detailed bass and highs as well. You can get good used gear over at audiogon, but you-may want to try musicdirect.com or audioadvisor.com so you can send it back if you don't like either. While the T+A is a very good system, I did not find it warm. I find the CDPs transparent and detailed and very clear....best I've ever heard in detail and transparent.... If you want something that's warm and makes you want to grove and boogie, its the Musical Fidelity.

  3. #28
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    Thanks for the info frenchmon. I must have been editing my post above yours when you posted.

    Are you refering to the Musical Fidelity A-5?

  4. #29
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    Brands like the Sim, Krell, BAT, Musical Fidelity, T+A are going to be more of your heavy hitters. The Luxman and Creek will be good but they really don't run in the same pack in my opinion. Creek is good in it's range though. I don't know if you'll like Luxman, the limited bit I've heard has been very clean and detailed but the top end was a bit accentuated while the bass a bit subdued to my taste.

    From what you describe it sounds like the T+A Power Plant would be ideal but if you use the Toshiba I'm afraid you might find the top end some what bright until getting something different. But this will happen with any accurate amp you get. The only way you will get smooth using the Tosh is to buy an amp with rolled off or very colored high end. I'd personally recommend a better CD player first. You should snag one of those Musical Fidelity X-ray v8 before they are gone, close out $799.00 at www.audioadvisor.com I'd also recommend buying new within your budget for an amp and get it from some place that allows 30 day return so that you don't have to mess with trying to sell and possibly lose money in your process.

    I didn't realize T+A was getting any press I'll have to check that out. I hope more people in the U.S. become aware of them.

  5. #30
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    Mr. P

    Which CD player would you recommend more the Emo ERC-1 or the Musical Fidelity Xray V8?

  6. #31
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    If price is not an object, the X-ray is better in my opinion. The difference being the ERC sounds rather neutral presenting good detail and large sound stage. The Musical Fidelity will show you what audiophiles are describing when they use the term "musical". The
    X-ray allows the music's rhythm and pace to be heard, the disc sounds more like music. The highs are very sweet and allows cymbals to fade naturally. The X-ray has a heavier bass response than the ERC. The X-ray is a bit laid back and everything is very smooth or sweet with excellent midrange. The X-ray has many good attributes of a tube presentation. Trumpet sounds great, it has the tonal quality it should and pierces the sound stage like it should but never offensive. It makes you just want to bump up the volume control because it sounds so good. The ERC is a fine machine but the X-ray had a retail price of over $2k and you can hear it. In addition, the X-ray is closer to my type of sound and great synergy with my CJ gear because both are very musical in nature. The ERC is faster though.

    For the purpose of just having another secondary player I'm keeping the ERC and if I use it in my work out room system I play mostly Rock or other energetic music in which the ERC would be better suited. If Rock was your main taste in music you still may prefer the ERC as well but if you listen to a variety and enjoy a more musical presentation from the music yu will appreciate what the X-ray can do.

  7. #32
    RGA
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    For power amplifiers I would look into Odyssey Stratos or Khartago power amplifiers. I would not want to spend much more money that this for solid state amplification - a couple of review heaveyweights said the Odyssey room was one of the best sounds of the recent Rocky Mountain Audio Fest Show in Denver Colorado. Beer budget - champaigne sound.

    Add to that a nice 20 year warranty and well I liked the Stratos more than more expensive power amps from Bryston and Krell. Plus you can have the amplifiers tailored to suit your needs before you buy which is nice.

    http://www.odysseyaudio.com/products-khartago-mono.html

    "I also liked the Odyssey Audio room - as usual, for their well-balanced approach to music reproduction: separation, harmonics, dynamics: everything is there to an appropriate degree for the $8K or so price of a system. This is a high-end system on a low-fi budget." http://www.audiofederation.com/blog/

    Worth a look - why pay more for a bigger name without the substance? Sometimes you do but honestly I have heard some of the suggestions here that I do not even consider "good" let alone high end or terrific and for high prices. Though I will not mention which ones here.

  8. #33
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    Mr. P, I think the MF xray v8 has moved to the top of my list for a disc player. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm hoping to be able to purchase one for Christmas. RGA, I hadn't looked at Odyssey amps for months and to be honest I was more interested in the Emotiva amps after visiting some forums. I think my opinion on them has changed though. I revisited their website and I read the numerous reviews and it seems like they are just as well built if not better built than the Emo's and I think they may have a smoother, more natural sound than the Emos. I think they may be what I'm looking for. I still am interested in the Sim Audio, Prima Luna, Xindak and Musical Fidelity amps as well though. I'll have to do some more research. Thanks for everyone's input so far. If anyone has any additional comments on the differences between Odyssey amps and the amps I have on my list it would be greatly appreciated. Also, I'm wondering what pre-amp most people are using with the Odyssey Stratos Mono Extremes? Is the Candela pre-amp from the Odyssey audio site, a good option?
    Last edited by devuonoste; 10-18-2009 at 10:30 AM.

  9. #34
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    If you want an X-ray you should try to nab one as soon as possible the $799.00 is a close out and when they are gone, they are gone. Unless you can find one used.

    I typically find that when putting separates together that same brand, especially pre & power, tend to have better synergy than mixing brands. So if you desire to go with Odyssey you should also go with their preamp. Many people talk about using tube preamp and solid state power but in my limited experience with that I was not impressed with the result. You might want to start a thread asking about Odyssey here, i know Hyfi has one and others may have used them. I don't know that much about them but from comments they don't sound like the warm sound you were looking for. On the other hand, RGA, has a rather unique opinion on how music should sound so if he likes them they are probably more toward warm than the Krell or other high current high power brands you might be considering.

  10. #35
    RGA
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    Actually the Odyssey is not warm - at least not the Stratos amps which are the only ones I've auditioned. Big powerful crisp clean sound - more open than the darker sounding Sim Audio Amps - open powerful like Musical fidelity and Bryston but without the nasties.

    Depends on your taste - I like the amps from Sim Audio but I alos liked the sound of Odyssey if you want a more "impact" kind of sound.

    I've never heard Odyssey preamps but I've read on forums that people seem not to like them quite as much - the preamp has more of a "say" on the overall sound than the power amp.

    SOmething you may want to consider is the Rotel RC-1082 - I bought one last week for review purposes because I needed a baseline preamp to make comparisons. I've never been much of a fan of Rotel preamps but this one is considerably different and a lot better than previous entires from Rotel. I compared it to an ARC and the Rotel was able to differntiate different CD players to a far higher degree which means that it's more of a straight wire with gain the the stamped on signature of the bigger audiophile approved name ARC.

    Rotel has come out with a new 1580 preamp to replace the 1082 and right now the preamp is going for less than half price.

    I'm not saying it's the best preamp going by any stretch but it's way better than you expect when you see the name Rotel attached. TAS chose it as the best budget preamp last year and it would serve as a very solid hold over until you can afford the $5-$7k preamps that will really make a worthwhile improvement. Finally a Rotel with solid bass - non treble fatigue and a pretty solid midrange without thinness common to amps in this price class (or SS generally).

    Here's the TAS review http://www.avguide.com/review/rotel-...o-preamplifier

    Basically a $1300 preamp that you'll be able to get for $600 while they're clearing them out. The new 1580 appears to be exactly the same with some cosmetic differences ans sells for $1600. So it's worth considering and you should be able to find a place to audition - with Odyssey it's mail order. For big SS power amps making the gamble is easier - but the preamp is the machine that has more of a sound.

  11. #36
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    Thanks for the info. I'll have to take a look at the Rotel Pres. The reason why Odyssey amps caught my eye is that through almost all of the reviews I've seen the general consensus is that their amps have great detail, soundstage, imaging and dynamics and are considered to have smooth highs and to be fairly musical and also natural sounding. I hope that is what the Stratos amps sound like. Can someone shed some light on that for me. I'm not really looking for a warm sounding amp that lacks clean, open and impactful sound. I just want to ensure that the amp has mids and highs that are smooth and natural sounding. Thanks

  12. #37
    RGA
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    Also I am currently using a set of Shengya Power amps with the Rotel preamp and getting very good results. The monoblocks are ridiculously overbuilt - 40lb beasts outstanding build construction and very powerful - without SS glare. The SS amps in terms of build are completely outclassed by the Shangya - and so is my Audio Note. The picture kind of sucks but they look real cool in real life - the monoblocks are about a foot and a bit deep - they're massive monoblocks. Don't have the preamp so can't comment but on price also worth a consideration

    http://grantfidelity.com/site/Shengya_CV15_PM150

  13. #38
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    RGA, when you mention the SS amps are you referring to the Odyssey amps? Also, can you give some more details around the differences between the Shengya and Odyssey amps, etc.? Also, in your post explaining the Odyssey amps, which Musical Fidelity Amp or Amps are you referring to, as I have the MF A-5 on my list and I was wondering if you have experience with that amp? Also, are you saying the MF amp or amps have an open and powerful sound but with some nasties (I assume you mean harshness and/or grainyness) or are you saying the Odysseys are similar to the MF and Bryston amps and they all have open and powerful sound without the nasties? You also mention you like the Simaudio amps and I'm wondering which one you are referring to and if you can give me some more details on what the sound quality characteristics are? Sorry for my lack of knowledge but I'd like to get as much info as possible. Thanks a bunch.
    Last edited by devuonoste; 10-18-2009 at 02:42 PM.

  14. #39
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    The problem is that i am not a big fan of buying components and forcing them together. I'll give you an example. I compared an Audio Note entry level $2700 CD player to a half that price Sim Audio CD player through Rotel preamp and power amp and Sonus Faber Toy loudspeakers. The AN CD player sound far more open showing the listener far more of what is on recordings. The trouble is that it also wasn't the least bit friendly to the lesser recordings and in some cases sounded like it was straining on vocals. Neither CD player was a great match for the Rotel separates and Sonus Faber - so I'd keep looking if those were the speakers/amp I had. Still the AN cd player sounded marvelous with AN amp and AN speakers (or Quad 2905 speakers) and completely sounded like a different CD player - so the lesson is you have to be careful what you match.

    Sim Audio for me and Celeste before it has always sounded deader and a little leaden. So you get an amp generally that is far more pleasing across a variety of systems but at the same time sounds a little safe - a little veiled and a little tubby. This is not a bad decision at all because Sim Audio doesn't know what system the customer is using and with most systems leaning brighter the Sim gear will balance that out.

    Musical Fidelity - separates or integrated I've not been much of a fan of - they're technically good but they always sound mechanical and too much like an "amplifier." The whiz bang solid state artificiality overrides a sense of naturalness. These are reasons I am not generally a fan of solid state amplifiers - regardless of whatever famous name on the front happens to be.

    Still we all have to make certain compromises but if I were you I'd be trying to assemble a system where I can get the most out of each component I can and not overpay for brand name hype. Grant Fidelity is a prime example of a Canadian Company that is basically re-branding some of the better Chinese manufacturers under their own name - plate. These Chinese brands have been making a LOT of the bigger name US components for years. It's no different than computer makers - Apple and HP do not make a single part in any of their computers - it's all made from companies most people have never heard of and selling a big brand name.

    Even the Rotel preamp I mention is made in China - you may find a Shengya or Jungson that is exactly the same for a lower price.

    Some things that I don't love about a lot of companies - changing model aesthetics without really changing the sound - it creates higher depreciation. MF changes models very quickly - and it's not about making the sound better - SS is a very very slow mover when it comes to sonic improvement. The Odyssey gear is a prime example - the stuff easily competes with most everything currently on the market at more money. Yet it is essentially re-badged 20+ year old amplifiers from Germany called "Symphonic Line"
    Check out the Khartago power amp review here http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/o...o_khartago.htm

    My view of this is not to spend large money on "names" when you are buying largely unheard gear. Spend wisely and a little less money. Then when the time comes introduce higher level higher priced (which isn't the same) gear to your system. You may end up liking an MF power amp over the Odyssey - but you may very well be like me and think the reverse and say gee I spent half the money and got twice the sound quality or even if that is just tempered with "pretty much the same quality - then either way you're ahead of the game.

    I don't want to dump on MF - plenty of folks like them - but it's just that I have not heard them yet sound like something I would want to own. They lean mechanical to me - in the Bryston side of the sound spectrum. The Stratos doesn't entirely get away from that either but it's Solid State and in general Solid State tends to have a leaness and a 2 dimension presentation that good tubes don't suffer from. That is why I like the Rotel preamp because it manages not to sound so sterile and a little more liquid and valve like which impressed me considering the price.

    The Shengya monoblocks on the other hand are tube hybrid and have the SS bass depth and grip but without that fatiguing thinness. Though I am in the very early stages with this monoblock combination.

    I have not heard the MF A-5 specifically - nevertheless - for that price of about $2500 and I could have Khartago monoblocks and a Rotel RC 1082 preamp and pocket $400 (or use the $400 for an even better preamp)

    If I could not audition before buying I know which I would buy. The flexibility of the separates alone would have me rule out the MF or really any integrated amp in this price range.

  15. #40
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    Thanks RGA. I think all your points are valid. I wish I lived in or at least near a larger city so I could audition some audio gear. Unfortunately I live in a small town and the only audio gear I would be able to audition would be relatively inexpensive receivers. I even had to order my Yamaha rxv1700 about 4 years ago. The reason why I did that is because an acquaintance of mine gave me really good deals on all of the equipment I bought from the store and at the time I mainly wanted something that would be good for HT. The Yammy has been pretty good and I am using it as a pre-amp for my Emotiva XPA3 for my fronts and center and the Yammy takes care of my rears. My point is, I can't audition gear unless I travel to a large city and I don't see myself doing that for some time. That is why I'm trying to get as much input from as many individuals as I can as well as doing as much research as possible so I can try to narrow my list. Unfortunately, it is evident that views on different aspects of sound quality are very subjective and it makes it harder to try to chose from a long list of possible candidates. The one good aspect of getting as many views as possible is that at least I can see if there are any reliability issue patterns with any candidates on my lists and the general quality categories that the candidates fall within. The more specific aspects of sound quality within each general quality category often comes down to personal preference. Detailed explanations, subjective as they may, around the sound quality attributes of a particular amp or amps helps, as I can start to see some patterns with some of the candidates (e.g. It seems to me that everything I have read about the Simaudio Moon i-5 indicates that this amp is definitely not a bright sounding amp). I just want to say that I appreciate all of the input I'm getting and I just want to keep doing some research before I take the plunge. By the way, I'm really interested in the Shengya monoblocks and Rotel Pre-amp setup. Can you please keep me in the loop with your thoughts on the set-up you have once you finalize your review of those products. Thanks

    P.S. How different do you think the Rotel RC 1082 is from the new model (1580)? Also, you mention that the Odysseys are good SS amps but they don't entirely get away from the SS lean sound and 2D presentation and you mention that the Rotel pre-amp sound is more liquid and valve like; therefore, I assume the combo would sound nice. Also, I'm interested to see if you feel that the combo of the tube-like Shengya monos + the Rotel pre-amp would lead to a combo that would be a bit too warm?? I guess from your initial observations you'd say not but I hope you can confirm and give more details at the end of your review. Finally, the MF xray v8 is a cd player that I'm interested in gets great reviews but I'm wondering if the Shengy/Rotel+MF xray v8 combo would be too warm or if the Odyssey/Rotel/MF xray V8 combo would balance out a bit more? Sorry for all of the questions but I am just trying to see what an experienced audiophile or audiophiles think the combos would be like.

  16. #41
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devuonoste
    Thanks RGA. I think all your points are valid. I wish I lived in or at least near a larger city so I could audition some audio gear. Unfortunately I live in a small town and the only audio gear I would be able to audition would be relatively inexpensive receivers. ....
    With all due respect, Devuonoste, you are asking for more specific advice than people can be expected to give you without hearing the specific combinations of two or more components you cite. You are going to have to be content with the general descriptions of maker's "house sound", or sound of specific components, of the sort that have been mentioned.

    Bear in mind that personal preference and the type of music you listen to are big factors -- no component is perfect, so you choose the imperfactions to which you have the least objection.

    Speaking for myself, I listen to classical music mainly and a lot of my classical is chamber music. Probably related to these music preferences, I my priority is high transparency, i.e. lots of "air" with high resolution, plus a neutral to very slightly warm or dark tonal balance. Furthermore my typical listening level is <70 dB. (BTW, the latter aspect has a great deal to do with the amplifier power you need: do not accept generalizations about how much power you need with a given speaker, for example.)

    But if I listened to more 'popular' music genre, especially rock, I might very well perfer an amp with lots of "PRaT", (pace, rhythm, and timing), which really means fast, powerful large- & small-scale dynamics. To get this aspect I might be willing to give up some transparency and/or tolerate a brighter tonal balance.

    The reality of not being able to audition a lot of equipment is more or less everyone's problem, although it's worse in you live in a smaller community. In this case I believe it's prudent to shop conservatively after doing good research, e.g. online, (which you are doing I must say). By "conservative" I mean a few different things:
    • Stick to heard-of brands that have a good reputation for reliability as well as sound -- and that are likely to have good resale value.
    • Don't go away over your budget with the conviction that a much more expensive component is going to guarantee permanent happiness with the sound you get.
    • Avoid components that have a reputation for being bright, edgy, grainy, or having an otherwise disagreable or eccentric sound.

  17. #42
    RGA
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    Feanor is correct devuonoste -

    There are simply too many component possibilities when you buy component based systems. Fortunately a lot of makers are now building complete audio systems that people can listen to and decide if it's for them.

    Once you start mixing 6 different brands all bets are off when asking for advice because there are too many variables to account for. The odds any reviewer has tried all the components in question is very small - and then the odds they tried them all together is next to zero - and certainly not likely in the exact same room.

    Just yesterday I read someone say that he felt Odyssey was unbearably bright - depending on the rest of the system that could be possibly - I auditioned Odyssey with Gershman Acoustics X1/Sub1 speakers which is a darker leaning loudspeaker. On B&W's it could be a screetchy experience - who knows have not tried Odyssey with B&W.

    Choosing a speaker with a treble response that does not hint at brightness is the first step.

  18. #43
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    Feanor, I agree with what you are saying but I just was asking RGA to give me his final thoughts on the current setup he is reviewing when he has completed the review and I asked a question of what his thoughts are if I were to add the MF xray v8 cd player. I don't think it is out of line to ask for specific details on his current set up and based on his impressions of his current setup I don't see why asking what his thoughts are on adding the MF cd player would be out of line. I'm just looking for specifics when people have experience with a certain setup and non-specific/best educated guess when I ask to add something that the reviewer has not auditioned. I know a lot of this is subjective, as I've mentioned numerous times and I know that there are numerous variables that come into play when discussing audio setups but correct me if I'm wrong, isn't that always the case. I've seen tonnes of forums where individuals are discussing amps or cd players or speakers and they often don't mention other things like room accoustics and treatments, cables, etc. My point is that I am looking to get info on amps and a cd player and it is up to me to get as much info as possible and then determine if the combo will work well with my speaker system, room accoustics,etc. If a reviewer gives me their impressions as well as giving me details around other parts of their set up then that helps me even more and the info is much appreciated. I read my post above and I don't think I asked anyone to give me specifics around two or more components that they have not had any experience with. I just mentioned that the specifics I get from people that have reviewed certain products is helpful to me and I know that even though helpful it is subjective and also that there may be variables within their setup that are going to be different than mine. I've stated before that I'm not an audiophile and I'm new to this and I value everyone's opinion and I am just looking to gain additional information.

  19. #44
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devuonoste
    Feanor, I agree with what you are saying but I just was asking RGA to give me his final thoughts on the current setup he is reviewing when he has completed the review and I asked a question of what his thoughts are if I were to add the MF xray v8 cd player. I don't think it is out of line to ask for specific details on his current set up and based on his impressions of his current setup I don't see why asking what his thoughts are on adding the MF cd player would be out of line. I'm just looking for specifics when people have experience with a certain setup and non-specific/best educated guess when I ask to add something that the reviewer has not auditioned. I know a lot of this is subjective, as I've mentioned numerous times and I know that there are numerous variables that come into play when discussing audio setups but correct me if I'm wrong, isn't that always the case. I've seen tonnes of forums where individuals are discussing amps or cd players or speakers and they often don't mention other things like room accoustics and treatments, cables, etc. My point is that I am looking to get info on amps and a cd player and it is up to me to get as much info as possible and then determine if the combo will work well with my speaker system, room accoustics,etc. If a reviewer gives me their impressions as well as giving me details around other parts of their set up then that helps me even more and the info is much appreciated. I read my post above and I don't think I asked anyone to give me specifics around two or more components that they have not had any experience with. I just mentioned that the specifics I get from people that have reviewed certain products is helpful to me and I know that even though helpful it is subjective and also that there may be variables within their setup that are going to be different than mine. I've stated before that I'm not an audiophile and I'm new to this and I value everyone's opinion and I am just looking to gain additional information.
    No criticism was implied, Devuonoste. I was only tuning your expectations.

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    Feanor, I understand where you are coming from, I just wanted everyone to know that I'm not expecting any individual to go out of his/her way to give me a detailed explanation of what they think a combination of audio components would sound like if they haven't had any experience with them. If I come across that way on my posts I apologize. I just want individuals to share their experiences if they don't mind, as I would do the same if I had experience in an area that someone requested some input on. Also, I want to reiterate that I appreciate all feedback and I have no hard feelings about your post above, I just wanted to clarify my intentions.

  21. #46
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Devuonoste...Its all about the sound you like. Music is really a subjective thing that only you can tell if you like the sound or not. For me, I like a warm smooth detailed sound. I listen to mostly jazz, classical, blues and some classicl rock. Jazz the most with some classical artist like Yo Yo ma. I have always been a Marantz lover from the late seventies until now. I've never been one to like really bright sounding stuff or too dark a sound. I do like the tubby sound as it sounds more natural to me . I have always been interested in Musical Fidelity and wondered what all the fuss was about.

    Now mind you I've owned Marantz gear in the past, and still own a Marantz 7.1 reciever and SACDP now. But I was looking to upgrade sense my move from Carolina to St.Louis.
    As soon as I got here to STL, I decided to go into a local Pawn shop and what do I see...A Rotel amp RB 1080 at 200wpc, the matching control amp RC 1090, the matching CDP RCC 1050 and the matching Tuner. The entire outfit new would have been a little over $3000 but I was out the door at the Pawn shop only spending $300 for everything. My thoughts where, man...I dont like Rotel....to bright. But you know what, The Rotel aint bad. The preamp is actually very good...and the 200wpc amp aint bad either. The CDP while ok was the week link. So after Mr. Peabody mentioned the MF at a discounted price, I called up Audioadvisor and asked about returns. He said I got a thirty day window to return it. After ording the unit it was at my house in three days. It was a dud so I sent it back and got another one and it was a very good fit with the 1080 and 1090. It out classed the Rotel after break in. It has a warm tubby tonal sound...the sound that I loved. So I began to wonder about the other MF gear such as amps and pre amps, and what I learned through reading what others have said is that MF give you a warm tube sound with much of their gear. Its the way they design their gear. In my opinion MF has this synergy with the music like no other brand I've heard and I've heard a lot as a citizen of North Carolina where we had plenty of hi fi shops. Not saying I have heard them all but a lots. While researching Musical Fidelity, I discovered that many Marantz lovers got rid of Marantz for Musical Fidelity or paired the Marantz reference CDPS with MF amps.

    Now I don't know what RGA means when he says MF sounded "mechanical and too much like an "amplifier. But if he means what I think he means, then from reading what those who own Musical Fidelity have said, they have say the complete oposite....they feel Musical fidelity has always been one of those companies who has had a warmer smooth sound. Even the preamps are warm while not being boring from what others are saying. And if the X-Ray is any kinda indication of what MF is all about, then I have to believe them. While listening to the X-Ray and the Conrad-Johnson tube amps in Mr.Peabody's listening room , it was a match made in heaven. Even with the X-Ray connected to my Rotel amp and control amp it has a warmer sound compared to the Rotel CDP and my Marantz SACP in redbook. I'm now considering getting a MF preamp to try with the X-Ray. But do keep in mind, what ever you decided to order if new, you do get a chance to return. Im sold on MF. I do believe the week link in my system now is the speakers My system is a work in progress.


    frenchmon
    Last edited by frenchmon; 10-19-2009 at 03:56 PM.

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    Thanks for the info frenchmon. I'm really interested in purchasing the MF xray v8. I also agree with what you said about the MF amps, as I think after reading a number of reviews the general consensus is that they are smooth and on the warm side of neutral. I guess that's where the subjectivity comes in, as you mention RGA seems to have the opposite view. Not a big deal though as I value all opinions and I always keep in mind that an audio setup is made up of a number of items and that coming up with a matchup that pleases you can take some trial and error. Also, as I have mentioned before, I plan to use some room treatments in the near future and that should definitely increase the quality of my audio setup.

  23. #48
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    Its a matter of taste.If you want the X-Ray do it soon, I called them up today and asked about how much they had left, and he said they cant tell me whats left, but they have very few in stock. You might want to call them up soon. As for room treatments, I do need to experiment a bit with that as well. My two channel room is not to small but not to big either. Its about 18x15 in the basement away from the wife and kids. It very comfortable to just go in there and do my thing. Its big enough for my system a nice 7 ft book shelf with about 150 of my books, a nice chair and my bike sitting in the trainer for workout. There is a sliding glass door that leads into my fenced back yard so I do have a nice view with lots of sun coming in. I have wall to wall carpet on the floor. I need to do some reflection points on the wall. I've got some nice oriental ruggs that we used in Carolina that does not go with the scheme of the house here in St. Louis that I'm going to have cleaned and put on the walls.
    Last edited by frenchmon; 10-19-2009 at 04:01 PM.

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    I don't think the X-ray with Rotel would be too warm. The X-ray has strong bass and even though the high end is very sweet, it is extended nicely.

    If not able to audition you should think about buying from online places that allow 30 day return. www.amusicdirect.com carry a line called Audio Electronic which is a budget line built by Cary Audio http://www.musicdirect.com/products/brand.php?b=AUDIO ELECTRONICS I haven't heard any of this gear but Cary built it to compete with the Chinese import stuff and it may be worth your while checking it out. They also offer the 30 day return. Another such dealer www.acousticsounds.com Between the two a pretty good selection of lines.

  25. #50
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by devuonoste
    Thanks for the info frenchmon. I'm really interested in purchasing the MF xray v8. I also agree with what you said about the MF amps, as I think after reading a number of reviews the general consensus is that they are smooth and on the warm side of neutral. I guess that's where the subjectivity comes in, as you mention RGA seems to have the opposite view. Not a big deal though as I value all opinions and I always keep in mind that an audio setup is made up of a number of items and that coming up with a matchup that pleases you can take some trial and error. Also, as I have mentioned before, I plan to use some room treatments in the near future and that should definitely increase the quality of my audio setup.
    Frankly I would not advise buying a "warm" set-up or a "bright" set-up. The latter will be annoying faster for most but eventually overly warm systems can sound dull and veiled. I am not a fan of a lot of big name SS (or small name SS) amplifier makers because to be blunt Solid State is not a natural amplifying device. "Transistors are highly un-linear and need a lot of correction (feedback of some sort) to have a bandwidth wide enough to be able to reproduce any music signals, they are not natural voltage amplifiers."

    Hence the sound "mechanical" and the more experience you have listening to more and more amplifiers the more this sound becomes annoying. I started out with Bryston as my favorite - we all start somewhere.

    So we have to make choices and for most people we try to fix one part of a system playing off the strength of another. To me this gets us nowhere. If you have bright speakers and you want to buy a tube amp to try and soften the treble - you'll end up playing upgraditus forever and you'll never get anywhere except broke. You should not be buying amplifiers or CD players or cables as tone controls - tube amps should not sound warm and tubby in the bass or rolled off in the treble and if they do it's the component's problem or a system mismatch. If the speaker sounds bright then replace the speaker - it's no good - famous names have zilch to do with it. Most of it is audio jewelry - expensive and not worth it compared to just as good for far less cash.

    Take the Rotel - it made the entry level Audio Note sound a little lean compared to the SS Sim Audio amp. That leanness it could be argued would sound "bright" to some people listening. Now typically people associate Tubes with warm and so the bright sound would automatically mean that listeners would blame the Rotel RC 1082 - well it's a bright preamp they'll say. Yet with the Sim Audio CD player - a lot less information on the recording is passed through - it sounded deeper and darker - no one in the room would say the Rotel was bright. The Rotel preamp to its credit does exactly what a good preamp should do - have features and tell it like it is to the power amp. Now the Audio Note builds the entire stereo chain and they are tailoring the CD player specifically for their amplifiers and ONLY their amplifiers choosing Transformer properties based upon how it will react to their own built transformer in the preamp stage which in turn is designed to react to the power amps and then the type of wires that will be used in the voice coil winding of the speakers. So that "brightness" with the Rotel preamp/power amp/Sonus Faber Toy is simply note there when that same CD player is used with their gear.

    So how a MF CD player will react to a Rotel Preamp is impossible to say. I am currently reviewing a marvelous little Grant Fidelity Tube DAC 09. This is a $300 DAC that is also a preamp, headphone amp - operates in both SS and Tube (as a dac or a preamp) and even had USB inputs - coaxial and optical inputs. Good build quality.

    It's a pretty big upgrade over the internal DAC's of both my CD players. But interestingly enough it works so far better with the Rotel than with My Audio Note OTO integrated where there is some overly mushy sound.

    Your budget allows for more - I personally would find a decent second hand transport and an external DAC - if I had to do it all over again I would have my system as "separated" as possible. Preamp and monoblocks, Transport/DAC.

    As an side you asked about the 1580. My understanding is the RC-1082 is the first Rotel preamp to be a completely different design than all previous Rotel Preamps - they have confusing number schemes - but all the units that look like the RC 1082 and 1580 are the new series of their flagship line. The RC 1580 I have not been able to get conformation on but looking at the feature set and aesthetics it appears to be virtually the identical amp but with some cosmetic changes - the RC 1082 and RC-1580 were both being sold at my dealer and the remote control IR was moved slightly and the RC 1082 has black side panels while the 1580 has a brighter silver. So depending on what looks nicer to you - frankly the RC 1082 looks better IMO because the silver is matted not as glaring as the 1580 and at half the price it looks way way better

    Now there are other fine preamps out there that you and, heck, I might like better but it just so happens that they're closing them out and for $600-$700 for the quality on tap and the features and "new" it's going to be real tough to beat.

    I like other preamps better - I could purchase an Audio Note M1 preamp for about $1k which is a stunner sonically - but it does not play well with most off brand brands - it simply doesn't make a good review preamp - not having a phono stage also doesn't help - no remote control less inputs no headphone out, less warranty. So you make some compromises.

    Every single preamp and power amp will be well reviewed by someone someplace - and quite often you will hear the same components being described polar opposite of something else - I've heard Bryston being described as warm and Sugden compared to Krell. Worse is the misinformation that tubes are lush and warm. Some are but the best ones IMO are not.

    Some tube cd players sound more like a guitar amp lover made them - stick in a tube to get a buffering mushy effect. This is not IMO what good tubes amps are designed to do. I don't want a fuzz box added to my system. This may help out most bright speakers but on highly resolving speakers this is just mush.

    The Odyssey stuff is commendable mainly because it's attractively priced and the AudioFederation which carries IMO some of the best brands on the planet made some interesting points about their sound for the money that they heard.

    It's not a bad idea to take a long deep look at the lesser names out there because the big name audiophile brands may have excellent marketing but along comes the likes of an Odyssey. If you read the TAS review - you'll note that Magico's speaker designer/owner was the guy who recommended the reviewers give Odyssey a try because they build their speakers voiced with Odyssey. It compared favorably to $100k+ power amplifiers it has to get a look IMO. And to even be in the ballpark with the bigger hitters is impressive.

    Granted just because the amps are $115k doesn't necessarily mean I'd like them or you would. Nevertheless...it's worth some pause.

    I am fortunate that my Dealer carries tons of brands - Sim Audio, Meridian, Musical Fidelity, Classe, Bryston, Linn, Rotel, Arcam, NAD, YBA, Creek Audio, Cambridge Audio, McIntosh, Audio Note, Antique Sound Labs, Sugden and a bunch of others here and there. No wonder they seem to be in a good mood - you never have to hard sell - someone is bound to like something eh? There is so much stuff out there and to be honest most of it is pretty good. You could buy a Sim Audio I7 and find a good speaker match and be happy - you could do that with Rotel with the 1082 and their matching power amp. I compared this front end with the Sim Audio i7 and the results with the same speakers and the Sim Audio CD player were not really worlds apart. Both were quite excellent really. You could drop the Classe or the MF in and you may also get a sound you like a lot.

    In the other room they had an all Meridian system with a very different voice but quite excellent results - and it's digital. Completely the opposite of my Audio Note Single ended low powered tube set-up. Now I won't be trading in the Audio Notes but the Meridian set-up sounded very good indeed and no hint of edgy irritation.

    Others have suggested staying with the safer brands - I agree - I just would stay with safer brands with more upgrade options. Spend less at first until you get a good handle on your sonic preferences.

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