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  • 04-27-2011, 10:54 PM
    Ajani
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RGA
    The difference is I have heard most of the products in these discussions and on these forums and in "almost" every case the people who get defensive are the ones who have never heard an Audio Note system, never heard the speakers, and when they do hear it is some entry level product connected to a system it wasn't intended for - like to a SS based system.

    Mr.P in virtually every room of note at CES - the associated equipment brought by the speaker manufacturers was a tube amp - well over half the room probably closer to 80% were tube based. And that's not counting some big tube makes who were on static display.

    I look at percentages when I start evaluating what "might" be the truly great stuff when I don't have my reviewer hat on.

    What I would do and I have done it, is I say right probably 99%+ of all amplifiers sold are SS amplifiers. The Majority of those - 95% of that 99% are receivers - that puts all people who buy amplifiers without a built in tuner or surround decoder in the "minority" - so by your reasoning because you and Feaner and Ajani and I did not buy one of those we must all be "wrong" because we're in the minority. Just because the majority is ignorant does not mean we're wrong. McDonald's sells the most burgers and Bose sells the most speakers - and just because most do something doesn't mean they're right.

    Now if you understand that paragraph then please stop with this silly notion of what the majority rules mantra. The fact is that most dealers carry SS gear and don't carry any tube gear - that has nothing to do with sound quality but in most cases servicing. Tubes require dealers to do work and know something about audio - and it takes time to show people how to bias the tubes. Further it's a hard sell to the average Joe who is blinded by more numbers equals better like the folks who assume that a camera with 12mega pixels is better than a 6 mega pixel camera simply because of that one number without considering the quality of the bloody lens.

    I say percentages. I look over several review sites and I see that tube amps are owned at a very high percentage relative to good SS amplifiers then it is pretty telling as on average reviewers tend to be more experienced than the average audiophile and has likely heard enough differing technology to be credible. In other words they've not just heard a SET amp - they have heard a couple of the best makers of SET amplifiers - Audio Note SET would count as one of the best SET makers - Wyatech Labs, Shindo and a few others.

    Audio Note is just one company in a sea of tube makers and HE speakers and they alone are part of reference systems at virtually every major magazine - and that's just ONE company that has a whopping percentage relative to SS sales. Two reviewers off hand at 6Moons own AN amps, at least one owns speakers. Dagogo has three AN speaker owners, 3 amplifier owners. Stereophile has 2 owners of AN speakers, one amp and a third reviewer hail a system as the best he's ever heard - SET/HE and he's not a tube guy. Hi-FI CHoice uses the AN E as their reference loudspeaker and their editor hailed it as one of the five best speakers ever made. That editor now works at Hi-fi Critic. At least one reviewer at Soundstage (the measuring happy magazine) owns the AN E - pretty sure they have a second. Positive Feedback has one who owns the speakers and pretty sure there is a second with an amp. Enjoythemusic has 3 reviewers who own amplifiers 2 own speakers including the editor.

    That's one company making SET and HE speakers. This doesn't even get into the likes of Cary, Wavelength, Shindo etc. Then factor in the reviewers who own some kind of tube amp (not just SET) and you could probably create a massive list just with ARC owners and get into Manley, McIntosh, CJ, Jadis, Antique Sound Labs, LAMM and numerous others.

    It's nice to throw words like religion out there - but really it comes down to Listening to a hundred system A stereos where system A is some kind of tall slim floorstanding speaker with two to four 6 inch woofers and some sort of metal tweeter at the top (or on top as the case may be) with typical complex crossovers in usually some sort of MDF cabinet and more or less getting the same sort of sound over and over and needing a big power amp to get a semblance of control and then getting that it still just sounds blah.

    Then some of the makers every 2-5 years will come out with some new model variant making some subtle change (not always for the better) like a new metal tweeter or they may change the materials to something more salable like - "ooh Kevlar it's bullet proof" and then add other exotic materials. Or they will change their metal tweeter and put in a ribbon tweeter - because that's the new in thing.

    You might stop to consider that when a company sells a speaker for 20 solid years and puts out a 2 way butt ugly rectangle box with a freaking silk dome woofer and paper or hemp(which is not exotic) and charges $7,600 or $50k+ that it might just have something going for it since not everyone with money is retarded. They don't sell on looks, they don't exactly sell on technobabble or exotic drivers. And the higher level parts they do use - you can't even see. Hell they don't even have ferro-fluid cooling or a long warranty to impress like some. This somewhat also applies to their amps which have long runs unchanged and nothing to look at for sometimes stupifying sums. And yes there is real competition out there but it sure as hell doesn't come from the likes of Revel IMO. Note the IMO - But at least I've heard both. Come back when any of you have bothered. Go listen to an $7600 AN E/SPe HE ($500 stands) directly compared to a $10,000 Revel GEM2 standmount with $1400 matching stands with say a simple jazz band using a stand up bass. LMAO - you do this and come back to me. Revel - :rolleyes5:
    All that doesn't change the simple fact, that YOU prefer the sound of SET/HE... Not everyone does.... It is not a case, as you try to make it seem, that anyone who doesn't prefer SET/HE has not heard a proper SET/HE system.... That's just nonsense... Take Stereophile as a simple example: Art and Sam love AN... Clearly John Atkinson, MF and KR do not... Why? Is it that they have never heard a proper SET/HE system? Nope... They just prefer the sound of stuff YOU think sounds like rubbish... John Atkinson loves Revel and Mark Levinson, but clearly doesn't love Audio Note... So you can argue till you're blue in the face that Revel/Levinson only sounds good in a measurements lab, but that doesn't change the fact that persons who HAVE heard the setups you rave about don't share your enthusiasm... If I remember correctly, PoppaC or another member here heard the AN room at one of the recent shows and didn't think it sounded good at all, despite you're usual raving about it... Why is that? Because he has different tastes from you...

    Why you can't understand that other persons have different tastes is truly beyond me...

    Your failure to comprehend something so simple is why you are regarded like a religious nut... You lay down a challenge like "Go listen to an $7600 AN E/SPe HE ($500 stands) directly compared to a $10,000 Revel GEM2 standmount with $1400 matching stands with say a simple jazz band using a stand up bass." as if it is impossible that anyone could hear both and prefer the Revel... The fact that JA prefers Revel shows how utterly stupid your test is.... Since you are testing OPINION and not facts...

    So let me try and make this clear to you yet again:

    An all Audio Note System sounding better than Revel/Mark Levinson is an OPINION, not a fact.... And not everyone shares the same opinion...
  • 04-28-2011, 03:24 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RGA
    ....

    You might stop to consider that when a company sells a speaker for 20 solid years and puts out a 2 way butt ugly rectangle box with a freaking silk dome woofer and paper or hemp(which is not exotic) and charges $7,600 or $50k+ that it might just have something going for it since not everyone with money is retarded. They don't sell on looks, they don't exactly sell on technobabble or exotic drivers. And the higher level parts they do use - you can't even see. Hell they don't even have ferro-fluid cooling or a long warranty to impress like some. This somewhat also applies to their amps which have long runs unchanged and nothing to look at for sometimes stupifying sums. And yes there is real competition out there but it sure as hell doesn't come from the likes of Revel IMO. Note the IMO - But at least I've heard both. Come back when any of you have bothered. Go listen to an $7600 AN E/SPe HE ($500 stands) directly compared to a $10,000 Revel GEM2 standmount with $1400 matching stands with say a simple jazz band using a stand up bass. LMAO - you do this and come back to me. Revel - :rolleyes5:
    The amazing thing is that Revel (Harmon International), were they to adopt the Snell/AN design concept, could, given their large-scale production capabilities, hugely undercut AN prices while delivering equivalent quality or better quality; (Baltic birch plywood is that rare or unique, though silver is getting expensive).

    So why don't they? Because they are working to a different design philosoply that aims for scientifically-verified criteria that prove that what most people really want is accurate, flat response, low distortion, together with wide, even dispersion.
  • 04-28-2011, 07:21 AM
    frenchmon
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ajani
    That was my experience with Rotel. It sounded fine at lower volumes but really came alive when you cranked the volume... I've also seen that characteristic mentioned in several Rotel reviews (since I owned mine). So as long as you have freedom to turn up the volume a bit, I can easily recommend Rotel.
    Never had that experience with my Rotel. When turned up to where I can hear and beyond...it sounds great.
  • 04-28-2011, 07:38 AM
    Ajani
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frenchmon
    Never had that experience with my Rotel. When turned up to where I can hear and beyond...it sounds great.
    That's interesting, especially since we own(ed) the same RB1080 amp... I had the RC1070 pre though.

    Note: I'm not saying it sounded bad at low volumes, just that it sounded much better as you cranked it... I found myself cranking the volume (and enjoying it) far more than my previous NAD setup....
  • 04-28-2011, 08:05 AM
    Ajani
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RGA
    Mr.P in virtually every room of note at CES - the associated equipment brought by the speaker manufacturers was a tube amp - well over half the room probably closer to 80% were tube based. And that's not counting some big tube makes who were on static display.
    RGA do you realize that Mr. Peabody owns Zu Omen definition Speakers with Conrad Johnson separates? High Efficiency speakers and tubes...

    Yet he is still challenging you on your view that LE Speakers and megawatt SS only sound good in a lab...

    Mr. P has moved away from Krell and Dynaudio, yet he can still appreciate the sound of such a combo and can clearly understand that other persons might well prefer that sound to the Zu/Conrad Johnson setup he now has...

    I don't pretend that in 5 years time I might not be rocking a SET/HE system... But that doesn't mean that I'm going to start claiming that everything else sounds like crap or is only good in a lab...
  • 04-28-2011, 04:04 PM
    RGA
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ajani
    Why you can't understand that other persons have different tastes is truly beyond me...

    Your failure to comprehend something so simple is why you are regarded like a religious nut... You lay down a challenge like "Go listen to an $7600 AN E/SPe HE ($500 stands) directly compared to a $10,000 Revel GEM2 standmount with $1400 matching stands with say a simple jazz band using a stand up bass." as if it is impossible that anyone could hear both and prefer the Revel... The fact that JA prefers Revel shows how utterly stupid your test is.... Since you are testing OPINION and not facts...

    So let me try and make this clear to you yet again:

    An all Audio Note System sounding better than Revel/Mark Levinson is an OPINION, not a fact.... And not everyone shares the same opinion...
    Umm that''s not necessarily the case. I can't get into this on a forum but there is something you should know about politics interfering with judgments about the players involved - JA and Peter Qvortrup go way back. Stereophile never covers an Audio Note room when Peter Qvortrup is in attendance. I'll leave it at that. Though I give JA credit for not letting his bias stop his reviewers from reviewing them or downright going over the top.

    But to the main point you are making about preference - well that's all fine and good - someone may very well prefer a McDonald's Big Mac to the finest hamburger made by the best chef in the world. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am entitled to tell them they're wrong and that there is a standard of quality they just "don't get" - and I can't help them.

    Of course I am not suggesting that Revel is McDonalds here - I used an extreme example but there are people who have "opinions" that are very clearly suspect. In audio there is a subjectivity involved - MF likes big SS power from his same initials MF. And JA may indeed prefer those kinds of systems.

    The job of the reviewer is to know what he himself likes - that creates for the reader an understanding of where said reviewer is coming from. MF is about as dogmatic on super high power Solid State as I am on SET. I am fine with that because I know where the guy is coming from and I doubt anyone here has any doubt whatsoever where I am coming from. SET/HE is to me clearly representative of the best sound reproduction and the next best is a major drop off the cliff. MF has said he "hates" SET. So there you have it - read the guy who preaches to what you believe but at least make sure you're auditioned the best of each technology or a something at the elite level of that technology rather than relying on forums and what you read in a magazine. And make sure that if you do put faith in a reviewer that you are absolutely positive he/she hears it exactly the same way. The fact that you agree with a reviewer on Revel doesn't mean you won't disagree with him on something else.

    I don't often agree with JA about much but Acapella was one of the top rooms for me at CES and JA recently reviewed it and gave it a rave. So we could not be in more agreement on that speaker. So I don't want this to become an "Audio Note" debate - I use them as an example of high efficiency and SET (ONLY because I have the most experience with them) - that doesn't mean that they're "it" for everyone. Both Trenner and Freidl and Acapella I could very easily see people liking better than Audio Note - or Teresonic and several others. And obviously room size and positioning are factors.

    It is pretty clear to me that people hear things fairly similar (when they actually bother to audition the same things in the same rooms and often when they don't). What were the best rooms I chose - A B C and then I see gee several reviewers on staff all own, did own, or planning to buy, those exact same speakers/systems that I chose as the top rooms. Other reputable reviewers also chose many of the same rooms or products I found to be the best ones. That isn't coincidence. It's not about AN specifically - and I am sorry I wrote the last posts rather badly - it was about a generality or direction of where the best sound comes from.

    There are exceptions to my generalities. Of course there is SS I like - I am a huge supporter of the Sugden A21a and I loved this ugly little Heed amp on the relative cheap at CES. Sim Audio and Classe and Pass Labs I tend to like - I did just purchase SS separates. And I did like Usher and Sony Loudspeakers that both fit into the mold of speakers I generally don't like. Both were very good. Nevertheless - the best of the best that I have heard in most cases is run by a SET and or has high efficiency speakers.

    At the end of the day - I am viewed as incredibly biased with Audio Note. I don't have a real problem with that since the best sound I have heard in Audio has been from Audio Note and it is in my opinion the reference for all others to be able to meet. Everyone has a reference point they judge against - or should have one. And some things I see do a better job in certain aspects.

    One of the reasons I offload the bias to other reviewers. For instance Wes Philips a more experienced veteran reviewer for the industry heavy weight Stereophile and is a Solid State guy and a Measurements are all important in speakers guy says things in a show report WAY beyond the pale and way over the top even compared to what I write as a reviewer should at the very least cause a bit of pause and say gee - maybe there is something there rather than RGA is a religious nutter. I don't get the closed minds on this. When a guy like that "see what he has reviewed" says this "Forget best sound of show, for sheer emotional delivery, timbral clarity, dynamic agility, and, yes, the highest fidelity, the Audio Note system may have been the best hi-fi I have ever heard. It was one of those magical moments that we audiophiles put up with all of the hassles for. After the Audio Note demo. the rest was noise, so I quit on a winner. Not many people who come to Vegas can say that." http://www.stereophile.com/ces2009/o...asy/index.html

    I think people do hear it similarly - whether you're a SS guy or not. I was a SS guy through and through. The first tube gear I heard was Copland and I liked SS more. Tubes didn't impress me.
  • 04-28-2011, 04:33 PM
    RGA
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Feanor
    The amazing thing is that Revel (Harmon International), were they to adopt the Snell/AN design concept, could, given their large-scale production capabilities, hugely undercut AN prices while delivering equivalent quality or better quality; (Baltic birch plywood is that rare or unique, though silver is getting expensive).

    So why don't they? Because they are working to a different design philosoply that aims for scientifically-verified criteria that prove that what most people really want is accurate, flat response, low distortion, together with wide, even dispersion.
    Not really. But keep believing the "corporation made science" all you want. Science in corporate America is not real science. And in independent blind auditions the AN J and AN E has yet to lose. Maybe they could allow a corner loaded speaker over there at harman - but they don't or can't or won't.

    The fact is big or small Audio Note has patents and you can't just steal.

    Although it may interest you to know that another company already shares the rights to the original Snell speakers - that company was Boston Acoustics (and now Denon). Terry at Soundhounds carried Boston Acoustics and the rep concurred that the AN E sounded far better than anything they built. Terry was constantly after BA to make a cheaper stripped down version of the speaker.

    After all BA has an economies of scale advantage - less shipping etc. The reply was "that look won't sell." If you think for one second that it doesn't have "everything" to do with appearance you're living under a rock because Harmon and any corporation has only one interest - making as much profit at all costs as they can (if they could make more money selling lighters they would dump audio tomorrow and sell lighters). And when you don't actually have something that can sell to people based on "sound quality" you have to find another way to sell it - measurements, white papers with suspect testing, and a bunch of baffle-gab. Incidentally Harman doesn't make a lot of speakers that according to you they can just copy and sell for less - they don't make ribbon planars or Electrostats either and they could - the parts are even cheaper for them. But again "that look won't sell" - it's about selling. Slim sexy and cool looking drivers. That is what sells.

    Quality is something that is somewhat hard to pin down because some companies simply don't advertise every little detail of what they do. Perhaps if people saw how an AN E speaker was made they might be a little more impressed by them instead of looking at the outside and making quick assumptions. They are highly labour intensive and the companies they partner with to make products are often specialists in given fields. Having Ferrari build you parts because no audio company has the machines to get the tolerances you need is something that adds tremendously to your costs. You may argue that it is not needed to get the sound - fair enough but it is costly nevertheless. That kind of stuff isn't advertised.
  • 04-28-2011, 05:49 PM
    Ajani
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RGA
    But to the main point you are making about preference - well that's all fine and good - someone may very well prefer a McDonald's Big Mac to the finest hamburger made by the best chef in the world. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am entitled to tell them they're wrong and that there is a standard of quality they just "don't get" - and I can't help them.
    .................................................. ..........
    say gee - maybe there is something there rather than RGA is a religious nutter. I don't get the closed minds on this.
    Not respecting someone else's opinion and feeling the need to tell them they're wrong, is exactly what religious nutters do...

    As for closed minds: Feanor, Mr. Peabody and myself are all willing to listen to SET/HE setups and see if we like them... In fact, as I mentioned before, Mr. Peabody is enjoying HE in his system now... None of us take issue with your suggestions that SET/HE sounds brilliant... We'd have to hear for ourselves to determine that.... The issue we take is with the constant bashing you do of everything else... You act as if SS/LE has zero sonic value and It's all about marketing etc... You dismiss the notion that an experienced listener could find actual sonic merit in a Megawatt SS system. JA, MF, KR etc must all be suspect because they don't share your views on what sounds good... That is closed minded...
  • 04-28-2011, 06:12 PM
    Mr Peabody
    RGA, you are like a toy, pull your cord and get the same song.

    You made a false statement regarding Krell and Bryston, that's pretty much it. So stop trying to create another one of those tubes vs solid state things. If you notice I use tubes myself but I can't help correcting ridiculous statements made based purely on prejudice as you have. I own both and neither are bass shy and Rotel is not even in the same league as Krell.

    Thanks for the amusing statistics you pulled from your backside.
  • 04-30-2011, 03:08 PM
    RGA
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ajani
    Not respecting someone else's opinion and feeling the need to tell them they're wrong, is exactly what religious nutters do...

    As for closed minds: Feanor, Mr. Peabody and myself are all willing to listen to SET/HE setups and see if we like them... In fact, as I mentioned before, Mr. Peabody is enjoying HE in his system now... None of us take issue with your suggestions that SET/HE sounds brilliant... We'd have to hear for ourselves to determine that.... The issue we take is with the constant bashing you do of everything else... You act as if SS/LE has zero sonic value and It's all about marketing etc... You dismiss the notion that an experienced listener could find actual sonic merit in a Megawatt SS system. JA, MF, KR etc must all be suspect because they don't share your views on what sounds good... That is closed minded...
    You're not experience enough listening to different designs - sorry to point this out to you. But most of the industry is Low Efficiency and SS because it is far more profitable to dealers. It's about selling boxes and making money for most of them - all of them really since Soundhounds does the same thing - though at least they don't deny it and they do carry some stuff they actually like as well. The very top of the line SS gear is quite good - I have no problem with MF liking what he does - and I agree with him on some points - his take on Bryston for example. On the other hand and in the same breath I would take the Bryston over his MF gear in a second because the difference in SS is just not big enough there to warrant the expense in my view. Bryston I recognize to at lease be a value added product.

    It is not close minded to want people to listen first then pontificate their vies about me and my views second. I grew up with SS and CD - not tubes and Vinyl. How would Mr. P, you and Feanor and several others here know they would not share my view unless they bothered to actually audition the stuff.

    It's all very nice to try and infer what you think it might sound like because 20 years ago you heard a tube amp connected to some Klipsch loudspeaker - but it's not the same thing. Very few dealers carry (again because its not sexy looking) or easy to operate top flight HE systems. And don't assume that all these reviewers have heard it either. UHF magazine has been selling for 29 years and only very recently did they audition Audio Note. And liked it a lot to boot. That doesn't mean it will be your first choice - but there is clearly a gradation of gear and it is not all about "opinion" In my opinion Fremer's opinion is wrong. And his opinion of my opinion is wrong. I can live with that. But before you jump on my opinion of his opinion maybe you should listen to a system he thinks is great for around the same money as one I think is great and judge from the results.
  • 04-30-2011, 03:18 PM
    RGA
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    RGA, you are like a toy, pull your cord and get the same song.

    You made a false statement regarding Krell and Bryston, that's pretty much it. So stop trying to create another one of those tubes vs solid state things. If you notice I use tubes myself but I can't help correcting ridiculous statements made based purely on prejudice as you have. I own both and neither are bass shy and Rotel is not even in the same league as Krell.

    Thanks for the amusing statistics you pulled from your backside.
    MR. P. I was actually at CES - I actually walked into every single room at the" show. Were you there? No? Then how would you know?

    As for Bass - read the review from UHF of the 3bST from a few years back. Or read the ST100 review in Hi-fi choice with the "lightweight" both magazines noted. I have had the 3BST at home.

    One day you will hear a really good audio system around a SET based amp with speakers that have bass depth. Dynaudio Krell based systems are middle of the road sound - lots of slam type of bass - has some big wow factor macrodynamics. It's tiresome. Hopefully you will get the Wes Philips experience - he too is the Dynaudio/Krell type guy (was one of the reviewers that Put the massive Wilson Watt Puppy on the map) and a big Thiel supporter and finally after nearly 30 years reviewing he got to hear something that blows that stuff to the weeds. Luckily you may too at a much younger age and without having to go through so much stuff.

    And again there is SS I like - but I just would not go over a certain point in paying for it. IMO it is better to go with a very good and not so expensive or high powered SE amplifier and put the bulk of the money into the source and speakers. Since Solid State expensive or cheap still sounds merely ok.

    And the not even in the same league argument is silly - depends which products we're talking about - Rotel doesn't rip people off. It sounds like SS unfortunately but I'd rather have that SS sound for under $3k than spend to have that SS sound at $30k.
  • 05-01-2011, 10:00 AM
    Ajani
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RGA
    You're not experience enough listening to different designs - sorry to point this out to you.
    Don't BS me... You are not remotely sorry about lording your superior experience over anybody...

    Though frankly, other than to float your own boat, I fail to see the relevance to the discussion, since I've never claimed to prefer SS over SET and have said repeatedly that I may well end up enjoying a SET system everntually... The difference is that I can keep my arrogance in check and respect the fact that others might not share my sonic preferences... You obviousaly can't...


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RGA
    But most of the industry is Low Efficiency and SS because it is far more profitable to dealers. It's about selling boxes and making money for most of them - all of them really since Soundhounds does the same thing - though at least they don't deny it and they do carry some stuff they actually like as well. The very top of the line SS gear is quite good - I have no problem with MF liking what he does - and I agree with him on some points - his take on Bryston for example. On the other hand and in the same breath I would take the Bryston over his MF gear in a second because the difference in SS is just not big enough there to warrant the expense in my view. Bryston I recognize to at lease be a value added product.

    It is not close minded to want people to listen first then pontificate their vies about me and my views second. I grew up with SS and CD - not tubes and Vinyl. How would Mr. P, you and Feanor and several others here know they would not share my view unless they bothered to actually audition the stuff.

    It's all very nice to try and infer what you think it might sound like because 20 years ago you heard a tube amp connected to some Klipsch loudspeaker - but it's not the same thing. Very few dealers carry (again because its not sexy looking) or easy to operate top flight HE systems. And don't assume that all these reviewers have heard it either. UHF magazine has been selling for 29 years and only very recently did they audition Audio Note. And liked it a lot to boot. That doesn't mean it will be your first choice - but there is clearly a gradation of gear and it is not all about "opinion" In my opinion Fremer's opinion is wrong. And his opinion of my opinion is wrong. I can live with that. But before you jump on my opinion of his opinion maybe you should listen to a system he thinks is great for around the same money as one I think is great and judge from the results.
    As having a discussion on audio with you is a waste of time, I'll simply defer to your superior experience and listening preferences... Clearly the only reason everyone doesn't own a SET/HE system is because we haven't heard a good one... And if, like John Atkinson, we have then it must be that we are corrupt, deaf or hold a personal grudge against all SET manufacturers...
  • 05-01-2011, 04:11 PM
    RGA
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ajani
    As having a discussion on audio with you is a waste of time, I'll simply defer to your superior experience and listening preferences... Clearly the only reason everyone doesn't own a SET/HE system is because we haven't heard a good one... And if, like John Atkinson, we have then it must be that we are corrupt, deaf or hold a personal grudge against all SET manufacturers...
    You admit you have not heard one. So why not take a breath go listen and then see what happens. The fact that John Atkinson likes or doesn't like something doesn't interest me. I care about what I like and I believe more people will hear it like me than those who won't. And I have stated the reasons why. You keep using words like "we" when you are not part of the "we." Until you have tried it then you may be part of the "they" that likes SET/HE.

    And how is it lording anything when I simply stated a fact. Several people on these boards like arguing against products that they have never auditioned - why? Is it out of some fear that indeed there may be greener grass over the fence and because you have already spent money you want to deny the possibility that something exists that could in fact sound better?

    I don't believe people hear things completely differently - otherwise we'd all have trouble understanding eachother - we all see the colour blue the same way and we all know the sound of a dog barking or what a triangle or violin sounds like. But I have no dog in this hunt - I really don't care what you choose or what you prefer - but at least audition that which you are going to talk about. And if I come across as too opinionated it's because to me it's that much better and there is no going back

    I go back to the owner of the top Bryston/PMC guy who pretty much nails it to a tee. You can pretty much insert "any" SS amp for his Bryston and pretty much any LE speaker for the PMC. (I actually don't mind that combo of gear) but in the vast majority of cases (some exceptions) the guy nails it. People say they want honesty in reviews - but they only want honesty from reviewers if it doesn't say anything negative of what they like/own. http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/O...al/345133.html
  • 05-01-2011, 05:20 PM
    Mr Peabody
    RGA, did you really say people here things basically the same?? That's one of the most absurd things you have said and you've said plenty. If we heard things the same we wouldn't be having this discussion. Frenchmon and I go listen to gear now and then, we sometimes disagree on a unit while being in the same room, same audition.

    I think there are different aspects of listening, the musical experience, that excite different people. Clearly AN has given you what you like but to say that's what every one wants and needs is crazy.
  • 05-01-2011, 08:19 PM
    Ajani
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    RGA, did you really say people here things basically the same?? That's one of the most absurd things you have said and you've said plenty. If we heard things the same we wouldn't be having this discussion. Frenchmon and I go listen to gear now and then, we sometimes disagree on a unit while being in the same room, same audition.

    I think there are different aspects of listening, the musical experience, that excite different people. Clearly AN has given you what you like but to say that's what every one wants and needs is crazy.
    The basic logic that RGA will never understand is that "hearing the same thing" is NOT the same as preferring the same thing... 3 of us could audition 3 sets of speakers together... And while we might all agree that one had the best bass extension, the other had the deepest soundstage and the last had outstanding midrange detail, we could each pick a different one of the 3 speakers to buy... Why? Because each of us may value one of those areas more than the other... All the quarreling in audio about what sounds best is just due to the arrogance of assuming that what I prefer is somehow superior to what someone else picks... It's a shame that so many supposed adults in HiFi can't just accept each other's preferences...
  • 01-22-2012, 12:28 PM
    audio2
    1 Attachment(s)
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    ...

    I still maintain a good tube amp will be better on the Tannoys. SO long as the tube amp has 4ohm taps and most good ones do then that is probably where I would go down the line. SETs or SEPs are the easiest to own since you don't have to do any work with voltmeters and calibration. Just change the tubes like you would change a lightbulb.
    Since I started the original thread I have enjoyed the Rotel 04 that I bought back then, though I kept in my mind comments like this and alike about considering to upgrade to a tube amps, so here I am.

    I've found a used Sugden a21a and I'm going to make an appointment for a listening session. As a novice I don't have any idea if are there things I should be aware of when buying a used tube amps.

    I would like to be a bit more "technically" prepared for the appointment so that I can eventually ask specific questions or pay attention on certain details. Maybe this sound a bit paranoic, but I'm a perfectionist and I think it's always good to know what you're buying with your bucks.

    PS: I don't know which year is the amp but I'll post here a picture, maybe can help.


    Thanks a lot in advance.

    Best regards
    Audio2
  • 04-06-2012, 01:55 AM
    audio2
    I thought to complete this post by adding the conclusion of my quest.

    It is now about 3 months I've been playing the Sugden A21A in place of the Rotel RA 04 and I really enjoy this amp.
    The more I play it the more I love this sound.
    This amp gets warm just like the sound coming out from the Tannoy I own.
    The whole audio system has moved to a higher level and increased the quality of the soundstage.
    The system is clear at low volume levels, rich and textured at mid-levels and dynamic and smooth at loud levels.
    I usually play at low and mid-levels, very occasionally at loud levels, and I'm very happy how the system in these 3 different condition plays.


    Also the system from the guy I bought the Sugden was very interesting.
    This was the configuration:
    Energy C5 speakers
    Arcam cd transport and Arcam Dac model Delta
    Sugden A21A

    I was surprised of the accuracy and synergy of this system combination, though, when played at "loud" level, it seemed loosing dynamic and smoothness.
    Also the sound was more home-theater alike.
    That was my impression.
    I know that he now has an Audio Analogue Primo in place of the Sugden.


    Musical regards,
    Audio2
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