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  1. #1
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    amp for B&W 802's

    I just bought some B&W 802 Matrix Series 3N (whew!) speakers.
    I've read and been told repeatedly that they need LOTS of power. I am very curious - how much is "LOTS"?

    So I've been shopping, but am not familiar with most of the audiophile-quality brands. Price is a real concern so I'd like to get an integrated amp to save money, although one alternative would be to drive a power amp with my NAD receiver's pre-amp outputs. At least one dealer said this would be OK as a "temporary" (i.e. marginal) solution until I could afford a decent pre-amp. Here's what I've considered:

    1) Rotel RA-1070 (100WPC) recommended by the B&W dealer (B&W and Rotel share the same distributor, so this recommendation has to considered in that light)
    2) NAD 218THX (225WPC) power amp only - $1200?

    Stereophile liked these integrated amps, all in the $1500-1700 range, which would be my upper limit:
    4) Musical Fidelity A3.2 (120WPC)
    5) Naim Nait 5
    6) Simaudio Moon i-3
    7) Talk Audio Cyclone 2.1

    I realize this is an open ended question, but if anyone is familiar with the B&W's or any of these amps, or has a favorite amp to recommend in the <$2K price, I would like to hear it.

    I didn't mention Adcom, which is what my friend used to drive these. She was VERY happy with the combination. She couldn't remember the model # or wattage, and had already sold the amp by the time I learned of the speakers.

    I forgot to mention, I have already tried powering these speakers with two combinations: 1) my 15 yr-old NAD 7250 receiver (50WPC) and 2) an Adcom GFA-535 power amp (60WPC?), driven by the NADs preamp-out. Neither combination blew away my Vandersteins (model 2). They were better, but to justify throwing down $1700 for an amp, I want them to be much better. And I didn't get much improvement in the sound stage or imaging (if I'm describing this right?), which I really expected. The Vandersteens are not great in imaging, in my opinion, but they are very smooth and easy to listen to. Dealers tell me the B&W's bass will be impressive with a good amp, much better than the Vandersteens.

  2. #2
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Nice speakers!

    Your speakers sport 90db sensitivity but will drop to 3.4 ohms so when people warn about high powered amps for these speakers, I'd imagine they are talking more about current and the ability to properly drive them vs. 300 watt monsters. While 3.4ohms is certainly not a killer, it will take an amp with some gravitas. The challenge that I've found is finding an amp that will deliver enough control of the bass so you can hear the slam and speed that these speakers are capable of. The Rotel wouldn't be a bad match and B&K or Parasound might compliment the speakers as well.

    If you want to try something a bit different, I have the CDM 7NT's and found they worked best with a PS Audio HCA2. This is a Class D amp, neither solid state nor tube.
    http://www.psaudio.com/products/hca.asp
    The HCA2 lends a tube-like warmth and smoothness to the upper end while it possesses a bottom end that rivals the best ss amps from Krell or Bryston. The first time I hooked it up I actually thought my sub was still on. It is also load invariant so you could drive Quad ESL's with dips to 1.5ohms and not sweat it. It literally transformed my speakers onto a wholy different plane. No joke. You can buy it new with a free upgraded power cord (recommended) from AudioAdvisor.com for $1700 or between $1,000-1,100 on audiogon. You are given a 30 day audition period and if you don't like the amp you can send it back and only be out $35 return shipping.

    You have a lot of choices <$2K so do you homework, take your time, and buy what moves you.

  3. #3
    DIY Dude poneal's Avatar
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    I agree. I think that you will find that you do not need a 200wpc amp. You need an amp that can drive low impedance loads with ease. I think that 50wpc would be plenty of wattage as long as it can drive lower impedance loads. As stated previously, do your homework, listen, then listen again and then buy.

  4. #4
    RGA
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    Just as interesting I have heard the N801 with big Classe, MF and Bryston Monoblocks but yet the best actual sound I have heard from them was from and 11 watt Nuvista Tube integrated amp.

    These speakers are not that hard to drive and I don't understand why more power is always recommended. Certainly 11 watts is not enough to play loud but from a sound quality perspective at low to medium level it was gorgeous.

    It depends on the sound you're looking for but perhaps you might want to consider YBA or maybe Sim Audio(have not heard Sim but seem to be liked). Certainly Rotel's strongest suit for sane money are their power amps. A smooth less grating sound than some more expensive amps.

  5. #5
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    Dont forget that rotel and B&W are partner companies.
    They design stuff with their counterparts in mind.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunburststrat
    I just bought some B&W 802 Matrix Series 3N (whew!) speakers.
    I've read and been told repeatedly that they need LOTS of power. I am very curious - how much is "LOTS"?

    So I've been shopping, but am not familiar with most of the audiophile-quality brands. Price is a real concern so I'd like to get an integrated amp to save money, although one alternative would be to drive a power amp with my NAD receiver's pre-amp outputs. At least one dealer said this would be OK as a "temporary" (i.e. marginal) solution until I could afford a decent pre-amp. Here's what I've considered:

    1) Rotel RA-1070 (100WPC) recommended by the B&W dealer (B&W and Rotel share the same distributor, so this recommendation has to considered in that light)
    2) NAD 218THX (225WPC) power amp only - $1200?

    Stereophile liked these integrated amps, all in the $1500-1700 range, which would be my upper limit:
    4) Musical Fidelity A3.2 (120WPC)
    5) Naim Nait 5
    6) Simaudio Moon i-3
    7) Talk Audio Cyclone 2.1

    I realize this is an open ended question, but if anyone is familiar with the B&W's or any of these amps, or has a favorite amp to recommend in the <$2K price, I would like to hear it.

    I didn't mention Adcom, which is what my friend used to drive these. She was VERY happy with the combination. She couldn't remember the model # or wattage, and had already sold the amp by the time I learned of the speakers.

    I forgot to mention, I have already tried powering these speakers with two combinations: 1) my 15 yr-old NAD 7250 receiver (50WPC) and 2) an Adcom GFA-535 power amp (60WPC?), driven by the NADs preamp-out. Neither combination blew away my Vandersteins (model 2). They were better, but to justify throwing down $1700 for an amp, I want them to be much better. And I didn't get much improvement in the sound stage or imaging (if I'm describing this right?), which I really expected. The Vandersteens are not great in imaging, in my opinion, but they are very smooth and easy to listen to. Dealers tell me the B&W's bass will be impressive with a good amp, much better than the Vandersteens.

    You need to be careful what dealers tell you. I am sure they have their best interest at hart.
    If you want impressive bass, get a subwoofer. You will be better off.
    How much have you allowed your NAD to drive the B&W? While it only has 50 watts, that should give you an idea what to expect from those speakers. A bigger amp will drive it a bit louder on the peaks. With a 100 watt amp, you will get 3dB increase, barely audible. Maybe your expectation is unrealistic?
    Soundstage and imaging is the function of the speakers and room acoustics as well as the recorded music quality.
    mtrycrafts

  7. #7
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    bigger amps have bigger power supplies

    an adcom 5400 is a VERY powerful sounding 125wpc amp. its affordable and even the higher priced 5500, which sounds MORE powerful, is on sale at audioadvisor.com. you could use your NAD as a preamp through its pre outs and gain a LOT in punch and apparent deep bass output without going with a sub. subs can prove to be difficult to mate to the main speakers but CAN be a reasonable fix. depends how it mates with the main speakers.

    a really good sub that will mate with your speakers could prove to e an expensive proposition.
    ...regards...tr

  8. #8
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92135011
    Dont forget that rotel and B&W are partner companies.
    They design stuff with their counterparts in mind.
    They share the same North American distributor, they are not under the same corporate umbrella or related in any other way. In fact, I believe B&W uses Krell when designing their speakers.

  9. #9
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    amps used in design

    most good speaker companies use a variety of electronics during their design phase so as not to create a monster.

    now and again, youll hear that manuf a used manuf c electronics to 'voice' their product. a valid approach.
    ...regards...tr

  10. #10
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    I've heard the 802's powered by Classe' amplification. Very nice indeed! Give their integrated amp a try. I believe they have one tha falls in your price range.
    Remember, different isn't always better, but it is different.
    Keep things as simple as possible, but not too simple.
    Let your ears decide for you!

  11. #11
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    Naim discontinued the Nait 5. They replaced it with the Nait 5i. Power output has been raised from 30 watts into 8 ohms, to 50 watts into 8 ohms. I am not sure if Naim increased the price.
    Remember, different isn't always better, but it is different.
    Keep things as simple as possible, but not too simple.
    Let your ears decide for you!

  12. #12
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    Topspeed,

    I got that info from a B&W dealer. The guy had a cert of him going to the B&W development center and manufactoring plant. He said that he saw that 90% of the amps B&W used were Rotel. Besides, B&W would not take up Rotel to distribute if they did not think that they were at least compatible in some way.

  13. #13
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    amp suggestions

    Thanks to everyone for the ideas. I'm still searching. I decided to revisit the Rotel RA-1070 recommendation I got from the B&W dealer. I read one good review and thought I was seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, then the next review said: "But there is something vaguely unsatisfactory about the sound, which somehow fails to breathe naturally." Then another reviewer: "where's the body in the voice? And where's the atmosphere gone?"

    Geez, don't want a speaker that can't breathe properly!
    So, back to the drawing board.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    PS. I was told tube amps were not going to do it, as far as bass -- evidently deficient in damping factor!?! (Now I could be easily sold on a tube amp, being a guitar player - tubes rule!) Whadda think? Should I be shopping with damping factor being a major consideration? Should I eliminate tubes?

  14. #14
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    Tubes are gonnna die with that 3ohm minimum on that B&W 802
    Seeing that its nominally 8ohms, I suppose the impedence will shoot up and down quite a bit. But try them out anyways. You might get some luck.

    Tubes can have bass...I know a company is in the process of developing an all tube subwoofer. Yes, a real one that dips down to 11hz or so.

  15. #15
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    I wouldnt rule out tubes immediately. Quad use their tube amps (KT88 based from memory) to drive their 989 electrostatic speakers and those drop down to 2 ohms.

    If you want bass KT88 based amps seem to be about as good as tube amps get. I used to run a pair of monoblocks using the JJ electronics KT88 that blew a perfectly reasonable Accuphase E211 SS integrated out of the water basswise.

  16. #16
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    try the bryston or the mcCormack
    NAD silverline products are plenty good for the B&W.

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