Thoughts on my 805 situation

[L.J.]

So what's next L.J.? With the Denon and mid-level Onkyos out where do ya go from here? I have been trying to convince myself into looking at some of the hi-level Onks but it just seem likes a waste to spend that much extra for wattage I'll never use, especially with no guarantee of improved processing. That constant law of trade-offs...

Not sure....maybe the Pioneer Elite 91TXH. It seems that both Onkyo and Integra have similar issues with speaker popping. No HDMI problems with the Denon 2807 or Yamaha 661 I tried out. Not sure what's up with Onkyo but they say it's normal. If they do get it figured out, I'd pick up another 805 and be done with it.

The Denon 2808 has been delayed until Sept. and the 3808 is pushing it with that $1599 price tag. Although I heard it was selling for about $1299 online, I don't wanna deal with that hassle. Yamaha should have the 1800/2800 out in a few months but I may have found a unit I like (and functions correctly) by then.

[GMichael]

I'll buy your 5 channel tomorrow GM. Tomorrow's payday!

OK, which one are you going to get me? The Halo A51 is on sale for under $3k if you can swing it.
I'll never forget you for this Tex. Thanks. You da man!

[Rich-n-Texas]

Forget it pal! You just got new toys. Now it's my turn!!!

What're ya gonna buy me L.J.? I surely could use that Harmony 890 remote.

[kelsci]

Hi L.J. If you did try out the Yamaha 661, how did the unit play in stereo and in surround mode? If the Pioneer Elite 91 has the same amplfication as the 81 you might want to give it a whirl. When I was in a store last winter looking at receivers the Elite 81 along with Denons, Sonys and Yamahas were hooked up to a digital server playing stereo. Never did I hear such garbage from the others and such finesse from the 81. In one store, I said to the salesmen that the dam thing sounded like it was made by MacIntosh. I cannot attest to the quality of the surround sound from the 81 for that part was not hooked up. Perhaps you can find a good deal on an Elite 81 although perhaps you are intending to future proof yourself as much as possible. The Onkyos would have done that but there is no excuse for a receiver to act the way it did. What pisses me off is the confusion that I am getting on both high defintion dvd formats as to what kind of audio is outputted over what connections and what each machine does when it senses a particular codec. From what I have read, there is no machines outputting a bitstream over any kind of cables (hdmi-opt-coax) of DTS MASTER and DOLBY MASTER AUDIO. Some Blu-Ray discs have DTS-HD master audio but I believe there is not any machine that decodes that to output out of any analog 5.1 outputs if the machine has those outputs. If the machines do not send a DTS-HD Master bitstream, then your new receiver's chips have nothing to decode there either. Damm, what a mess.

[GMichael]

Forget it pal! You just got new toys. Now it's my turn!!!

What're ya gonna buy me L.J.? I surely could use that Harmony 890 remote.

But you offered.

[Rich-n-Texas]

But you offered.

<===== Hardly ever get to use that one!

[GMichael]

<===== Hardly ever get to use that one!

No problem. Eventually you'll need to sleep. Now, where did I leave that Crazy glu?

[L.J.]

Hi L.J. If you did try out the Yamaha 661, how did the unit play in stereo and in surround mode?

Not a bad unit for $400 - $499. Sounds very neutral to me. Does not have the smoothness or the depth of the Onkyo, but I'm still kinda shocked at how good this unit sounds. It would not be an improvement over my 2805 though. Haven't had a chance to do any real surround listening yet, but I did watch a little bit of Pirates 1 uncompressed PCM track. Sounded OK. I haven't ran the room correction yet so maybe improvement could be made.

If the Pioneer Elite 91 has the same amplfication as the 81 you might want to give it a whirl. When I was in a store last winter looking at receivers the Elite 81 along with Denons, Sonys and Yamahas were hooked up to a digital server playing stereo. Never did I hear such garbage from the others and such finesse from the 81. In one store, I said to the salesmen that the dam thing sounded like it was made by MacIntosh. I cannot attest to the quality of the surround sound from the 81 for that part was not hooked up. Perhaps you can find a good deal on an Elite 81 although perhaps you are intending to future proof yourself as much as possible.

Going to pick the 91 up tonight. Magnolia only has 2 left so hopefully they let me put one on hold. I'm looking at HDMI 1.1 and up so there are lots of options available.

The Onkyos would have done that but there is no excuse for a receiver to act the way it did.

Onkyo has a few issues to take care of. I just don't know if a note saying "this popping sound is not a malfuntion" is gonna be enough for everyone. It wasn't for me and I really liked the 805 Perhaps they'll release a firmware upgrade

What pisses me off is the confusion that I am getting on both high defintion dvd formats as to what kind of audio is outputted over what connections and what each machine does when it senses a particular codec. From what I have read, there is no machines outputting a bitstream over any kind of cables (hdmi-opt-coax) of DTS MASTER and DOLBY MASTER AUDIO. Some Blu-Ray discs have DTS-HD master audio but I believe there is not any machine that decodes that to output out of any analog 5.1 outputs if the machine has those outputs. If the machines do not send a DTS-HD Master bitstream, then your new receiver's chips have nothing to decode there either. Damm, what a mess.

Yup, that's why I opened up my options to HDMI 1.1 avr's and up. I have uncompressed PCM and TrueHD covered using the PS3. I can live without DTSMA. I don't think alot of BR support this yet anyway. Uncompressed PCM seems to be getting alot of support lately though.

[L.J.]

Forget it pal! You just got new toys. Now it's my turn!!!

What're ya gonna buy me L.J.? I surely could use that Harmony 890 remote.

Hey, you and GM are they ones with all the $$$$$ with your fancy setups and what not

[musicman1999]

Yup, that's why I opened up my options to HDMI 1.1 avr's and up. I have uncompressed PCM and TrueHD covered using the PS3. I can live without DTSMA. I don't think alot of BR support this yet anyway. Uncompressed PCM seems to be getting alot of support lately though.

I just want to make sure i understand this about the new formats:
best-uncompressed pcm --just takes up to much disc space.
next DTS-MA--same as uncompressed pcm except uses lossless compression to save disc space.
DD truehd--same as above,dolby version
next DD+,DTS version. lossy version of uncompressed.

Seems to be a lot of confusion on this,also where decoding is and should be done.
Is this about right?

bill

[L.J.]

I just want to make sure i understand this about the new formats:
best-uncompressed pcm --just takes up to much disc space.
next DTS-MA--same as uncompressed pcm except uses lossless compression to save disc space.
DD truehd--same as above,dolby version
next DD+,DTS version. lossy version of uncompressed.

Seems to be a lot of confusion on this,also where decoding is and should be done.
Is this about right?

bill

Yes this sounds about right, although I'm not 100%. I understand about as much as you guys do. Where's Wooch at when you need him?

There was a thread at AVS breaking all this down and it was giving me a headache. I think the studios are confused as well. It dosen't make sense why uncompressed PCM and TrueHD tracks are showing up on the same disc. 300 or Ghost Rider for example.

DTS suggests using a BR or HD player that can output the bitstream to a 1.3 avr for decoding.


Dolby says these discs that do allow the signal to leave the player may be few, so who knows. Those that are patient should probably what for a player that can fully decode all formats and output over MC analog outs.

[musicman1999]

I did read somewhere that to make use of the bluray-java features,audio decoding and mixing must take place in player and can then be output to the reciever by analog or hdmi.It seems to me that keeping it simple is the way to go,i have a good quality processor and if i could feed it from a good blueray player with good quality decoders thru analog inputs i would buy one.

bill

[GMichael]

Hey, you and GM are they ones with all the $$$$$ with your fancy setups and what not

Hey, my Yammie is a few years old already. If you like it, they're going for arround the $500 mark these days. Half what I paid.

[L.J.]

Hey, my Yammie is a few years old already. If you like it, they're going for arround the $500 mark these days. Half what I paid.

HELLOOOOOO................Speakers................ .....Rosewood..........................ringing any bells yet

[GMichael]

HELLOOOOOO................Speakers................ .....Rosewood..........................ringing any bells yet

Oh, those old things? Yeah, they're nice. But they don't do HDMI.

[L.J.]

GM, curious about what you think of the "presence speakers" that Yamaha uses? I went in to pick up an Elite yesterday and walked out with a 2700. How the heck did that happen?

[GMichael]

GM, curious about what you think of the "presence speakers" that Yamaha uses? I went in to pick up an Elite yesterday and walked out with a 2700. How the heck did that happen?

I stopped using mine. Mostly because I would need to buy another set of speakers for something I rarely use. I used to have the JBL E10's hooked up for this duty before I moved them into the bedroom for the second system. Never got around to replacing them.

They are nice for watching live DVD's. They widen the sound stage. But they can't be used at the same time as the rear's in 7.1, (unless they have been changes to the newer 2700 from my 2500) so they never got used much. If you don't ever use 7.1 then they are nice. Or I think you could use the extra amps for bi-ampping your mains. Check your manual, but I think that the 2700 can do that.

How's you end up with the 2700? Someone offer a great deal, or did you just fall in love with the extra power over the 661?

[kelsci]

Hi L.J., just perform the same tests with the 2700 that you did with all the other receivers.
I do not know how you walked out witht he 2700 either. I do not know what you are going to find with its stereo performance, but the 2700 was one of those that I tested against the Pioneer 81 last winter in stereo and it fell flat on its face. I did not get to hear how it performed in surround sound though. In the past, they did perform quite well in surround. The Sherwood 6095R has a Yamaha 912 24 bit chip and I have to say it processing prowness for 5.1 surround is nothing short of superb.

[L.J.]

Magnolia had one left on clearance last night. Probably making room for the 1800/2800. Figured I'd pick it up and give it try since the Elite is going to be around for awhile.

I did a quick manual setup last night but haven't a chance to do much but test everything out.

[L.J.]

Ok, I'm gonna be picking up the 91 Elite this weekend. I'll give the 2700 another week or so and then give the Elite the same amount of time. Not trying to drop $1599 on the 3808 so that's out. Onkyo freakin' screwed up so their out as well as Integra. Not sure how much of a difference there will be between the 2700 and 1800/2800, so it looks like I'm down to my last 2 choices unless I start looking at higher quality gear.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Pioneer receivers are my sentimental favorites, so I'm going to be rooting for the Elite 91.

[kexodusc]

Ok, I'm gonna be picking up the 91 Elite this weekend. I'll give the 2700 another week or so and then give the Elite the same amount of time. Not trying to drop $1599 on the 3808 so that's out. Onkyo freakin' screwed up so their out as well as Integra. Not sure how much of a difference there will be between the 2700 and 1800/2800, so it looks like I'm down to my last 2 choices unless I start looking at higher quality gear.

ROFLMAO!
LJ I went through this same thing 3 or 4 years ago after my Marantz units died.
I had at one point in my home a Denon, NAD, H/K, and Yammie receiver (the ol' 1400).
In the end the NAD was the best sounding to me, but wasn't worth the $800 extra beans for significantly less features, and barely sounded better than the others.. I didn't really like the H/K's sound, the other 3 were pretty much equal there surprisingly - with a slight nod to the NAD's better power. The Denon and Yammie sounded the same to me.

If you can't find a receiver where you're looking, I'm going to have to suggest Arcam and Rotel, with NAD a distant 3rd. These 3 are the best a/v receivers I've heard, in that order. More money, less features (not sure about the HDMI though), but dude you're running out of options.

Keep us up to date.

[L.J.]

ROFLMAO!
LJ I went through this same thing 3 or 4 years ago after my Marantz units died.
I had at one point in my home a Denon, NAD, H/K, and Yammie receiver (the ol' 1400).
In the end the NAD was the best sounding to me, but wasn't worth the $800 extra beans for significantly less features, and barely sounded better than the others.. I didn't really like the H/K's sound, the other 3 were pretty much equal there surprisingly - with a slight nod to the NAD's better power. The Denon and Yammie sounded the same to me.

If you can't find a receiver where you're looking, I'm going to have to suggest Arcam and Rotel, with NAD a distant 3rd. These 3 are the best a/v receivers I've heard, in that order. More money, less features (not sure about the HDMI though), but dude you're running out of options.

Keep us up to date.

Yeah I got boxes laying around everywhere. So far just the 2700 and 805 would be considered an upgrade over my 2805. The 2700 is not exactly what I'm looking for in music playback, but very close. HT on the other hand is amazing. The best I have heard from any unit I've tried so far. If I could have the 2 channel playback of the 805 with the HT performance of the 2700, I'd be in heaven.

So this has me thinking. The Yamaha has a very neutral/balanced sound but the Onkyo seemed to put alot of emphasis on the mids and low end (my wife and I liked this very much with music but it did not always go well with HT), why is that? Is it the amp section of these units causing this difference? Can I just pick up a 2 channel amp that has the same emphasis on the mid/lows and pair it with the Yammie for the best of both worlds?

[kexodusc]

Yeah I got boxes laying around everywhere. So far just the 2700 and 805 would be considered an upgrade over my 2805. The 2700 is not exactly what I'm looking for in music playback, but very close. HT on the other hand is amazing. The best I have heard from any unit I've tried so far. If I could have the 2 channel playback of the 805 with the HT performance of the 2700, I'd be in heaven.

So this has me thinking. The Yamaha has a very neutral/balanced sound but the Onkyo seemed to put alot of emphasis on the mids and low end (my wife and I liked this very much with music but it did not always go well with HT), why is that? Is it the amp section of these units causing this difference? Can I just pick up a 2 channel amp that has the same emphasis on the mid/lows and pair it with the Yammie for the best of both worlds?

I haven't really spent much time with my Yammie's stereo abilities for music - I know the amps put their own spin on the sound. Something to consider if you end up using power amps with whatever model you buy.

[GMichael]

Yeah I got boxes laying around everywhere. So far just the 2700 and 805 would be considered an upgrade over my 2805. The 2700 is not exactly what I'm looking for in music playback, but very close. HT on the other hand is amazing. The best I have heard from any unit I've tried so far. If I could have the 2 channel playback of the 805 with the HT performance of the 2700, I'd be in heaven.

So this has me thinking. The Yamaha has a very neutral/balanced sound but the Onkyo seemed to put alot of emphasis on the mids and low end (my wife and I liked this very much with music but it did not always go well with HT), why is that? Is it the amp section of these units causing this difference? Can I just pick up a 2 channel amp that has the same emphasis on the mid/lows and pair it with the Yammie for the best of both worlds?

That's what I am hoping to do someday. The Halo A23 is only 125wpc. Not a power upgrade. But I'm hoping for a quality upgrade. (not that I have a problem with the sound from my Yammie. But if I can get more, then why not?)